Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
That's not being out 24/7 that's being stabled part of the time .
No winter turnout how does everyone survive??
- Thread starter polly123
- Start date
That's not being out 24/7 that's being stabled part of the time .
TheMule
Well-Known Member
Why on earth is stabling necessary? There is no requirement to stable a horse to ride it. Mine live out 24/7 and are competition horses- I've evented 2 horses to Intermediate off grass. In fact, I switched to them living out as my event horse just wasn't coping in a stable. I have 4 very happy, very healthy horses who are thriving in their work.
cobgoblin
Bugrit! Millennium hand and shrimp.
How pedantic!
cobgoblin
Bugrit! Millennium hand and shrimp.
Yes, you can ride directly off grass, but a lot of people will bring in for an hour or two prior to riding, either to allow them to dry off, or to give a rest time after feeding. I've always done it this way and I suspect a lot of others do as well.
ihatework
Well-Known Member
To be fair though that is very dependant on where you live and what grazing facilities you have access to. Personally there would be few set ups where I would be wanting to compete a horse off 24/7 turnout.
That said for retired or leisure horses then yes, my primary management would revolve around turnout access. Indeed part of a decision (a small part and not the main one) was around PTS of a retired horse where I was not in a position to provide adequate quality of life
amandaco2
Well-Known Member
me too. id find it impossible with 4 horses, unless they had a walker?turnout pen.
mine live at home and only come in once the fild gets wet...usually 9/10pm til 6am.
paddi22
Well-Known Member
But the reality is if you are shutting something in a small limited space and it has no control over leaving, then it is jailed. I don't think someone keeping their cat in a house is jailing it. But i would think someone keeping a cat in a 2ft by 2ft box (which would be a proportionally large stable) IS jailing it.
paddi22
Well-Known Member
and the 'horses have been stabled for centuries' thing worked in the past because horses would have been in constant proper heavy work, pulling ploughs, pulling coal carts, carraiges, transporting for large distances,.. not just bursts of schooling and short hacks,
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
ok well you choose your words and I will choose mine...People do crate their animals quite often though, no?
IMO If the animal is kept in and unable to go outdoors for any reason then tbh I think the size of the enclosure is fairly irrelevant if you are looking at expressing natural behaviours etc
would you differentiate between other species that people keep indoors quite happily (kids with hamsters etc...?) Or those cows I mentioned earlier.I'm not sure that it *did* work for the horses any more than it does now with proper care and attention.. my comment was in response to the suggestion that this is a new thing.
jumping.jack_flash
Well-Known Member
Hands up who knows what DIY is / versus Livery/ Versus FULL Livery.... ?
If you could just explain.... as I'm too old and tired to explain to those that are not able to grasp the hassle it was when the DIY I was on... went into 'Lock Down' in 2014 due to the bad weather... and why personally IF I was still a DIY person, it would drive me nuts not having winter turn out ...and even now on livery... IF there was NO Turn Out over the Winter months.. I would move yard!
EOM.
If you could just explain.... as I'm too old and tired to explain to those that are not able to grasp the hassle it was when the DIY I was on... went into 'Lock Down' in 2014 due to the bad weather... and why personally IF I was still a DIY person, it would drive me nuts not having winter turn out ...and even now on livery... IF there was NO Turn Out over the Winter months.. I would move yard!
EOM.
paddi22
Well-Known Member
but no one would crate a dog or cat for 23 hrs a day - the majority of people would see that as cruel. I think the space of the enclosure is important, look at battle to get battery chickens more space. I think it is psychologically damaging to any animal to not be able to do anything apart from walk in a tiny circle all day. Hamsters have proportionally bigger cages than horses do and their cages have more stimulation stuff like tunnels, climbing stuff, wheels etc, multi-levels etcwhere they can run when they feel like it. They get to exhibit a lot more natural behaviours than horses can in four walls.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Maybe you need to re read your posts before adding them to check they mean what you want them to mean?
As this
Really didn't make a lot of sense.
tristar
Well-Known Member
i have kept horses out 24 7 with shelters and in full work, it worked very well.
quite a few competition horses are kept like this also, one top level eventer i read about keeps theirs out 24 7
i can only imagine the boredom of a horse locked up all the time, and the physical deterioration of its overall physical condition, for example bones need pressure to maintain strength, that requires movement, not just work but the slow moving around that is natural to horses.
quite a few competition horses are kept like this also, one top level eventer i read about keeps theirs out 24 7
i can only imagine the boredom of a horse locked up all the time, and the physical deterioration of its overall physical condition, for example bones need pressure to maintain strength, that requires movement, not just work but the slow moving around that is natural to horses.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
^ this and I'm still not sure what you're getting at here "Hands up who knows what DIY is / versus Livery/ Versus FULL Livery.... ?"
because DIY is a type of livery so there is no clear distinction between DIY & livery unless you add the qualifier of full/part/assisted/competition etc (and that's a whole new can of worms with the regional variation in definition of those terms!)
nice little diversion from a thread where we are all basically agreeing (in a roundabout way) that no one would choose to be lumped with no winter turnout but isn't-it-a-shame that the world isn't perfect
OWLIE185
Well-Known Member
There are some city centre riding stables where the horses have no turn out but the horses are ridden several hours of each day so they at least get to be ridden several times each day.
However keeping a privately owned horse, which may be only at best be ridden once a day is cruel and should not be allowed.
Yards for privately owned horses should have sufficient grassing for all year turn out. If we could do this in London then there is no reason any other yards in other parts of the country should be able to do it.
The fields should have proper drainage installed and the number of horses kept on the yard should be such that the Horse/Land ration is such that the Winter grassing is not destroyed.
I appreciate that there are some competition horses that get little turn out but one would hope they gets lots of exercise each day and if not then this is also cruel.
However keeping a privately owned horse, which may be only at best be ridden once a day is cruel and should not be allowed.
Yards for privately owned horses should have sufficient grassing for all year turn out. If we could do this in London then there is no reason any other yards in other parts of the country should be able to do it.
The fields should have proper drainage installed and the number of horses kept on the yard should be such that the Horse/Land ration is such that the Winter grassing is not destroyed.
I appreciate that there are some competition horses that get little turn out but one would hope they gets lots of exercise each day and if not then this is also cruel.
ycbm
Overwhelmed
I'm not sure why you say 'now'? I was liveried at a stable near Bristol/Bath in 1984 that had no winter turnout and around fifty liveries. It's always been the same in clay areas and yards with insufficient land.
ycbm
Overwhelmed
Cruel? Cruel is not enough to eat, more work than they are fit to do, physical beating. It is not a horse standing in a good size stable with food and water on offer, having been ridden for an hour by a competent rider, showing no signs of anxiety whatsoever.
I'd rather my horses were stabled 24/7 with inadequate exercise than used in a riding stable!
Owlie we will need volunteers like you to shoot the ones which have to be given up because people can't afford the livery fees to provide the setup that you are saying is the only one which is not cruel.
Damnation
Well-Known Member
The "Type" of livery won't make a difference to the turnout you get normally.
It is the place where you keep your horses that dictates the amount of turnout.
E.g if you keep horses at home, you have more flexibility to leave out/bring in/24hr turnout/put up shelters etc.
On a yard where someone else dicates the rules, it is usually one rule for all unless your horse has some vetenary need to go out. A DIY and a Full livery on the same yard will get either the same amount of allocated days out, or none, or as much as they want in the winter. It is usually one rule for all. The only real difference is that a DIY horse may be out for longer on that allocated turnout day (doing horses around work times) compared to a Part/Full livery who will be done by YO, YM and staff.
The type of livery you are on really is a moot point. It is the yard/place itself that dictates the rules. If that happens to be your own place then happy days.
It is the place where you keep your horses that dictates the amount of turnout.
E.g if you keep horses at home, you have more flexibility to leave out/bring in/24hr turnout/put up shelters etc.
On a yard where someone else dicates the rules, it is usually one rule for all unless your horse has some vetenary need to go out. A DIY and a Full livery on the same yard will get either the same amount of allocated days out, or none, or as much as they want in the winter. It is usually one rule for all. The only real difference is that a DIY horse may be out for longer on that allocated turnout day (doing horses around work times) compared to a Part/Full livery who will be done by YO, YM and staff.
The type of livery you are on really is a moot point. It is the yard/place itself that dictates the rules. If that happens to be your own place then happy days.
ycbm
Overwhelmed
The trouble is you can't. None of us can because we are not horses. Personally it would send me crazy to eat the same meal for all three meals every day of the week but my horses seem delighted by the idea.
Bone strength in humans requires a higher level of exercise than slow moving around. I suspect an hour of medium to high intensity work is plenty to keep muscle and bone healthy. Most race horses live in and they wouldn't if they were stronger and better able to race if they lived out.
Slightly Foxed
Well-Known Member
Yup, it's all the fault of those bleddy Scots, Irish and Welsh!
Lucyad
Well-Known Member
They probably get a lot more exercise than your average 'hobby' horse though - I remember being shocked at the rate the muscle fell off my horse when he was on box rest. It gradually came back as he was hand walked then turned out. Many horses don't get a significant amount of exercise, particularly over winter.
Casey76
Well-Known Member
Yes, at our yard meeting our YO gave up a detailed breakdown of all of the costs (building/vehicle maintenance, feed and bedding, labour, tax etc) and pared down to the bare minimum it was 11 per horse per day. With the current livery charge he is making 9 per horse per day.
The deficit comes from the time it takes to turn out, and given that mine is one of three yards in my area (approx. 100km diameter) that offers any (never mind restricted) turnout, he could quite easily turn round and say, no more turnout unless owners do it themselves to make up the deficit.
samlf
Well-Known Member
I, personally, would never keep a horse on a yard with no winter turnout or turnout that was heavily restricted. It is not the norm in our area to have no winter turnout - there was one yard that operated this way, but they closed down because no-one would stable their horse there. There are other more competition based yards to do seem to restrict turnout, but I have never been on them - I'd rather have poorer facilities for myself than my horses suffer.
I am very lucky that I rent my own yard, mine live out and the field does end up very muddy as we are on clay and it is poorly draining. It always recovers with the right management.
I think if I were to be unable to keep my horses this way, I'd rather not have a horse than have to keep it stuck in a box all winter. I am sure they would outwardly cope but it isn't healthy for them mentally or physically and I don't believe that ridden work is a substitute for turnout with another of their species to be able to interact and relax.
I hope the yards that are struggling with winter turnout would consider an all weather area, it is relatively inexpensive and would allow the horses to at least express some natural behaviour. Those horses I do know that have been kept on a restricted regime seem to have had their fair share of injuries, KS, arthritis, laminitis etc. Of course I cant put this solely down to a restricted lifestyle, but I doubt it has helped.
I am very lucky that I rent my own yard, mine live out and the field does end up very muddy as we are on clay and it is poorly draining. It always recovers with the right management.
I think if I were to be unable to keep my horses this way, I'd rather not have a horse than have to keep it stuck in a box all winter. I am sure they would outwardly cope but it isn't healthy for them mentally or physically and I don't believe that ridden work is a substitute for turnout with another of their species to be able to interact and relax.
I hope the yards that are struggling with winter turnout would consider an all weather area, it is relatively inexpensive and would allow the horses to at least express some natural behaviour. Those horses I do know that have been kept on a restricted regime seem to have had their fair share of injuries, KS, arthritis, laminitis etc. Of course I cant put this solely down to a restricted lifestyle, but I doubt it has helped.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
and this is why it's bonkers to have a thread like this where people get all agitated about someone else's horses having less turnout than they would choose. We aren't all the same, not every horse that spends a lot of time indoors is withering away because some are kept in more work than others, so the level of fury that is apparent in a few posts is quite misplaced IMO
Mine get stacks of work all year round and will come out of this winter looking fabulous, the younger one particularly so as she has developed quite a bit since the autumn.
Tyssandi
Veteran
I hope not cob goblin. I think most people would prefer to have horses out 24-7 if they could. There's nothing I like more than watching mine play in the field ( my foal does a lot of imaginary grand nationals with our poor other horse being forced to join in ��
I for one would not want my horses out full time (now)
These horses hang round the gate from about 3pm onward waiting to come in.
To say most people is a bit presumptuous as many do not want their horses out full time due to what ever personal reason they don't
Last edited:
Tyssandi
Veteran
So where do you stop then ? keeping fish in a small tank is jailing it - keeping rabbits in a cage is jailing it - keeping birds in cages is jailing it. Same with snakes and all reptiles
You forget many many horses prefer living in to living out. What do you do with those ones?? boot them out only for them to stand at the gate all night miserable dropping off weight??? Keeping prisoners in small cells is cruel, where does it end?? Sometimes the end justifies the means
MY only qualm about not turning out, is when the yard management is not properly managed to where owners cannot have their horses out due to the fields getting muddy etc. That is not in the best interest of the horse, either cut down the amount of horses on a yard to where some fields are resting while the winter turnout recovers or do something to improve the drainage so the fields do not get in a state (unless your on clay). Round here (one of my livery owners) was on a yard where one horse slipped and broke it's leg so the Y/M said * No more turnout when wet mud or slippery fields* Her horse was in 2 weeks yard added money to the bill to exercise the horses during the day when owner's at work. Accidents happen and that should not put a ban on ALL turnout because of one sad incident.
Last edited:
ester
Not slacking multitasking
and this is why it's bonkers to have a thread like this where people get all agitated about someone else's horses having less turnout than they would choose. We aren't all the same, not every horse that spends a lot of time indoors is withering away because some are kept in more work than others, so the level of fury that is apparent in a few posts is quite misplaced IMO
Mine get stacks of work all year round and will come out of this winter looking fabulous, the younger one particularly so as she has developed quite a bit since the autumn.
MP genuinely curious because it was part of the reason I abandoned Frank the other side of the country, how do you cope with the situation for Millie when she is off games? Just in hand stuff etc?
paddi22
Well-Known Member
Surely there's a line at which quality of life decreases due to restricted confinement. A hamster in a cage still has a wheel to burn off excess energy when it chooses, it can climb bars when it feels like it, get different sensations from tunneling in fluff or sleeps in hollowed branch toys. That is a whole different sensory environment to a herd animal designed to roam plains being kept in a space where it can only turn in a circle and look out one direction and be surrounded by four walls.
There is a definite balance of enrichment vs confinement. I don't know where the line is scientifically. I know everyone loves their horses and does their best, but genuinely i think a lof of people turn a blind eye to the reality of how their horses quality of life suffers because they don't have a better option for them.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
Handy for us, if she's not been on actual box rest I've been able to ride her. Even when she's been a bit wonky in the school she's been OK on the hard surfaces for lane hacking . Lucky eh? I did have a retirement back up plan but so far not needed it.
Tyssandi
Veteran
I don't agree
A wheel in a hamster cage is not normal as it is cooped up in a cage all day surround by bars. It has no choice but to exercise on a wheel. I have already said no turnout for a horse is morally wrong and ethically wrong for many reasons. A horse who goes out 7am and in at 4 for example can do a hell of a lot more in the time it is out than a hamster in a cage.
Just because 24 turnout is right for one horse does not mean it is right for another. Many of our breeds today came from warmer climates and do not do so well out unlike cobs
Regardless of peoples views on stabling horses it has been done for centuries and it becomes the normal for some horses, something they think nothing about coming into a warm brick stable with food on tap and dry bed to sleep on. Some prefer it and as they are the ones who have to live that way and accept it, as if they did not accept stable life they would show symptoms of distress, jumping out the stable, loosing weight due to stress of being confined and banging at walls or doors. All this lot do is hang round the gates and kick the gates wanting to come in when the weather is bad.
To force a horse to stay in when it shows symptoms like the ones I mentioned above is wrong but when it is clear the horse prefers living in who are we to chuck it out in the elements.
Last edited: