Normalizing restricted turnnout ?

Wishfilly

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Surely in this case you need to find livery which has ground which is not rutted rather than keeping the horse inside for long periods?

My experience of turning out on a daily basis is that they tend not to pick up injuries because going out is not exciting for them.

On the other hand horses standing in for many hours a day are unlikely to have long careers.

How do you achieve this on heavy clay soil in a wet part of the country? Genuinely asking.
 

Wishfilly

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Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a livery yard down here without some ruts in the ground even if only around gateways. It usually doesn't freeze solid that often, so I am sort of willing to accept it as a fact of life (and accept there will be occasional days when certain fields may not be suitable for turnout).

Obviously if I had loads of land and unlimited money, that would be different!
 

Cortez

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I'm not the hugest fan of all weather turnout. It's usually a small area, not even half an acre (a 20x60 arena is less than 1/4) and on a nasty winter day I often see horses huddled miserably with no shelter looking as if they be happier inside a stable.
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I have an all-weather turnout which is slightly larger than a 60 X 20 arena (it is square). The horses turned out there will usually have a roll, pick at a haynet, and stand around looking bored for the majority of their time "out". If I have horses out in it I will trot them loose, often in groups, for at least 15 minutes twice a day (morning and evening). Without this "encouragement" the amount time spent of standing around is honestly just the same as if they were in a loose box.
 

F&B

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I used to keep my old boy on a yard that had excellent grazing all summer and daily turnout if dry in winter. If it was wet however they went on to alternate day turnout. When I brought him in after his day out, he used to stop in the middle of the yard & refuse to go in his stable - the only way I could get him to go in was to go & get his dinner. He didn't ever do this when they were on daily turnout, infact he used to march in - he really was voting with his feet. He was hand grazed ridden & walked in hand on his in days.

My set up now at home for 2 horses is limited land, however I have a small barn with hard standing (24hr access) and a track that leads to an area for a roll and change of scene for haynets, which they have daytime access to. This saves the rest of my grazing for spring summer. The plan was only ever to use the land at home for part of the year and go to livery for the rest, but I've found they are better off on a well managed 1 acre than anything a local yard can offer, so for the timebeing at least they are staying put.
 

Goldenstar

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By saving part of your turnout by keeping some field(s) with no horses on all year, maybe have sheep on instead, them once the ground has frozen hard you have your pristine non rutted turnout.

Make sure that you take the horses off again before the thaw appears, you don’t want any hoofprints messing up this sacrosanct turf.

*impractical for most of us*

My land is loam, and not too rutted, but even so there are ankle deep hoof prints in places. On clay, people report sinking in up to knee height - those holes are going to be lethal to (wo)man and beast in a hard frost.

Common sense seems not to be common, does it. Sometimes horses are safer kept in temporarily.[/QUOTE

So the moment it starts to thaw the entrance to the field will soften the snow begins to melt during the day and freeze at night so each day you would need a new field every day until the whole melt was finished and they could go back to the winter sacrifice field .
Extremely fast melts do happen but they are rarer .
After the snow has gone then it going to be very very muddy and that’s almost as dangerous .
 

CanteringCarrot

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I have an all-weather turnout which is slightly larger than a 60 X 20 arena (it is square). The horses turned out there will usually have a roll, pick at a haynet, and stand around looking bored for the majority of their time "out". If I have horses out in it I will trot them loose, often in groups, for at least 15 minutes twice a day (morning and evening). Without this "encouragement" the amount time spent of standing around is honestly just the same as if they were in a loose box.

I guess for me the open air would be important, but I have a horse with allergies (dust, mostly) and that it's a change of scenery, so possible mental benefits. More for the mind than body sometimes.

Also depends on the group. Mine and his mate have a rodeo of sorts for the first hour and play bitey face gelding games, so they move a decent amount on their own.
 
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Goldenstar

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I have an all-weather turnout which is slightly larger than a 60 X 20 arena (it is square). The horses turned out there will usually have a roll, pick at a haynet, and stand around looking bored for the majority of their time "out". If I have horses out in it I will trot them loose, often in groups, for at least 15 minutes twice a day (morning and evening). Without this "encouragement" the amount time spent of standing around is honestly just the same as if they were in a loose box.

This was my experience when I experimented with this sort of idea to see if I wanted to build one .
Instead we made several small paddocks theres nine if I keep them at their smallest but you can change the fencing to join them together make them bigger .
They go into autumn flat and with the grass long I find them really useful when it is awful like really wet .
There’s only been one day this year and it was extremely heavy rain and each horse got about an forty five minutes in one one at a time It gave them a graze at some fresh grass and some fresh air while we did the yard .
These paddocks are great for rehab after lameness .
 

paddy555

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How do you achieve this on heavy clay soil in a wet part of the country? Genuinely asking.

I'm not on clay but in a wet area but I moved from rutted gateways to ones I can now go onto in trainers at any time of the year without getting my feet wet. (that is my judge of everything, I don't like mud) Whilst rutting in the actual field is inevitable as horses run around the gateways were surprisingly easy.
We dug then out, put down rubble and then sand on top. Most gateways are rutted firstly because the horses all take the same track through them onto the field and secondly if a group of horses stand anywhere to come in it is by the gate where they mill around, jump up and down etc and cause the damage.
We avoided both of those by not only hardcoring the actual gateway but then taking the hardcore further so on the field side is a fan shape (or whatever the gateway lends itself to) when they are led out they don't all step down from the hardcore in the same place so it reduces a lot of the massive rutting. Then if they gather at the gate in a group they are standing on hardcore.

Obviously won't work if there are 20 horses in the field but for many situations it will. Also means you don't need your boots on when you go to catch your horse as you are standing on a hard surface.

The cost to do ours was just about nothing other than a bit of diesel but it is not that expensive if you do the work yourselves and it pays for itself in the damage it reduces. Even if you have to pay it is a very worthwhile investment.
 

honetpot

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How do you achieve this on heavy clay soil in a wet part of the country? Genuinely asking.
In my case I have a thrash paddock which in really bad years turns to mud soup, the mud dripping off rugs when they roll. They have an island of straw, made from a full heston bale, with a heston straw to either use as a wind break or eat, which I hang hay nets from. You just keep adding straw to the pile. The young ones go for a play and the bigger one may try an find a blade of grass.
This system worked for me for nearly twenty five years. My previous paddock at home used to flood to about a foot, when the water went down I soon realised they were happier slopping around in fetlock deep mud and water than stood in a stable, if they had the choice, and they did.

The mud control mats look a good investment as exercise area outside I think is a better investment that stables. I use gale breaker as wind break, https://galebreakeragri.uk/product-details/farmflex
Its very hard wearing and you do not need planning, just a few fence posts and a frame. The upside of this is its easily removed it you move you just role it up and pull out the posts.
I do everything on a budget, when we moved I treated myself to second hand Loddon stables, which cost £2,500. Every one says how smart they are, but they are hardly ever used. I now wish I had spent the money on a 12ft gate system and made the space more flexible, even though they only have half walls, ending up with something that was more like a cattle shed.
 
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oldie48

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There's clay and there's CLAY. Ours is horrible sticky grey stuff, walk through it in wellington boots and your feet weigh a ton and are twice the size by the time you've walked across a field. It sucks horses shoes off, If they stand still for too long they sink into it, the rain stands on top of it and freezes when it's cold. OH and I joke that there's a two week window when we can work our garden because it also dries out very quickly into concrete. It is vile in the winter but it holds moisture in the Summer and we have grass growing when on a sandy soil you would have a dust bowl. We all have to do the best with what we have and what works for one won't work for another. I'm lucky having 11 acres or so and never had more than 4 horses at a time in winter but most people won't have anything like that, even an acre or two per horse won't cut it in a really wet year.
 

Wishfilly

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I'm not on clay but in a wet area but I moved from rutted gateways to ones I can now go onto in trainers at any time of the year without getting my feet wet. (that is my judge of everything, I don't like mud) Whilst rutting in the actual field is inevitable as horses run around the gateways were surprisingly easy.
We dug then out, put down rubble and then sand on top. Most gateways are rutted firstly because the horses all take the same track through them onto the field and secondly if a group of horses stand anywhere to come in it is by the gate where they mill around, jump up and down etc and cause the damage.
We avoided both of those by not only hardcoring the actual gateway but then taking the hardcore further so on the field side is a fan shape (or whatever the gateway lends itself to) when they are led out they don't all step down from the hardcore in the same place so it reduces a lot of the massive rutting. Then if they gather at the gate in a group they are standing on hardcore.

Obviously won't work if there are 20 horses in the field but for many situations it will. Also means you don't need your boots on when you go to catch your horse as you are standing on a hard surface.

The cost to do ours was just about nothing other than a bit of diesel but it is not that expensive if you do the work yourselves and it pays for itself in the damage it reduces. Even if you have to pay it is a very worthwhile investment.

I appreciate that's possible for gateways, but right now the fields at my yard are wet enough all the way through that a horse trotting/cantering across them leaves deep hoof marks- the whole field can't be hardcored! And most fields I see with horses in at the moment look similar!

I don't have the option to do anything as it's livery, but I think people don't appreciate how wet the land is at the moment.

Mid march or so we will move to summer fields, but they are more low lying and can flood, so they need the rain to stop for a while before they are usable.

And yes, I fully accept this set up isn't ideal- but to me seeing lots of fields in winter at a livery yard with no ruts in would make me assume turnout was very limited.
 

paddy555

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In my case I have a thrash paddock which in really bad years turns to mud soup, the mud dripping off rugs when they roll. They have an island of straw, made from a full heston bale, with a heston straw to either use as a wind break or eat, which I hang hay nets from. You just keep adding straw to the pile. The young ones go for a play and the bigger one may try an find a blade of grass.
This system worked for me for nearly twenty five years. My previous paddock at home used to flood to about a foot, when the water went down I soon realised they were happier slopping around in fetlock deep mud and water than stood in a stable, if they had the choice, and they did.

The mud control mats look a good investment as exercise area outside I think is a better investment that stables. I use gale breaker as wind break, https://galebreakeragri.uk/product-details/farmflex
Its very hard wearing and you do not need planning, just a few fence posts and a frame. The upside of this is its easily removed it you move you just role it up and pull out the posts.
I do everything on a budget, when we moved I treated myself to second hand Loddon stables, which cost £2,500. Every one says how smart they are, but they are hardly ever used. I now wish I had spent the money on a 12ft gate system and made the space more flexible, even though they only have half walls, ending up with something that was more like a cattle shed.

So much can be done with ideas and imagination. We too did everything on a budget and gates were the key to a lot of it. Thanks to gates we have small spaces, larger spaces, all the way up to opening everything up on hard surfaces.

I haven't found that pens on their own/or all weather turnout idea work very well on their own, the horses eat and then stand by the gate. It works better if the pen/turnout area is the horses home with a shelter/stable. That way the horses use both stable/pen.

I have just been looking (online) at a livery set up. Not a stable in sight. Very large barn, open front with a hangover, divided acrossways into 4 bays. Large pen (the size of the inside area) for each bay. Straw inside, carpetfibre outside. About 4 equines in each bay all playing, lying down together and just living together.
 

Wishfilly

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So much can be done with ideas and imagination. We too did everything on a budget and gates were the key to a lot of it. Thanks to gates we have small spaces, larger spaces, all the way up to opening everything up on hard surfaces.

I haven't found that pens on their own/or all weather turnout idea work very well on their own, the horses eat and then stand by the gate. It works better if the pen/turnout area is the horses home with a shelter/stable. That way the horses use both stable/pen.

I have just been looking (online) at a livery set up. Not a stable in sight. Very large barn, open front with a hangover, divided acrossways into 4 bays. Large pen (the size of the inside area) for each bay. Straw inside, carpetfibre outside. About 4 equines in each bay all playing, lying down together and just living together.

That sounds lovely, but do they have stables elsewhere? What happens if one of the horses needs box rest, for example?
 

paddy555

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I appreciate that's possible for gateways, but right now the fields at my yard are wet enough all the way through that a horse trotting/cantering across them leaves deep hoof marks- the whole field can't be hardcored! And most fields I see with horses in at the moment look similar!

I don't have the option to do anything as it's livery, but I think people don't appreciate how wet the land is at the moment.

Mid march or so we will move to summer fields, but they are more low lying and can flood, so they need the rain to stop for a while before they are usable.

And yes, I fully accept this set up isn't ideal- but to me seeing lots of fields in winter at a livery yard with no ruts in would make me assume turnout was very limited.

I was really commenting primarily on the gateway deep rutting problem which causes a problem both for putting horses out over it and for some putting horses out over it onto less rutted ground when it is frozen solid.
I do realise how wet the land is. I am 1000ft in a high rainfall area and some of my land (currently in use) is river meadow.
When it floods we have a lake. Of course there are going to be hoof prints whenever horses even walk across wet fields.
 

paddy555

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That sounds lovely, but do they have stables elsewhere? What happens if one of the horses needs box rest, for example?

I am sure they can confine the area down to an individual area if needed. A better set up doesn't need to be either communal living in a barn or individual living in stables. There can be both and both can be adapted.
 

Wishfilly

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I was really commenting primarily on the gateway deep rutting problem which causes a problem both for putting horses out over it and for some putting horses out over it onto less rutted ground when it is frozen solid.
I do realise how wet the land is. I am 1000ft in a high rainfall area and some of my land (currently in use) is river meadow.
When it floods we have a lake. Of course there are going to be hoof prints whenever horses even walk across wet fields.

Yes, I accept that- but my original post was in response to a poster saying they would look for yards with no ruts at all in their turnout- which I think is an unrealistic standard!
 

stormox

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I think restricting turnout isnt being normalised, it was common years ago too! All the yards I was on in 60s and early 70s ( mostly hunters and pt-pt yards and one film/show yard) kept their horses in completely in winter as did the local riding school.
There were no 'outdoor' rugs, green canvas ones with rollers came in about 1970 I think but they were very cumbersome when wet, so if a horse was clipped and in work it was in!
 

stormox

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There where definitely out door rugs in the sixties .

Yeh but they were expensive and green canvas and very heavy when wet.
They also slipped as they had rollers or circingles- I know crossover bellyband straps werent in common use then.
Maybe a few people had them but no yards I was on used them - horses were in, fed mucked out ridden exercise in morning, tack cleaning and other jobs in afternoon and horses done for night about 5pm.
 

Tiddlypom

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These were in common usage before the 70s. Thin canvas NZ rugs which leaked, slipped and rubbed :rolleyes:. It was common to get a saddler to add sheepskin lining to the shoulder area to reduce rubbing.



CFD3C9A6-781C-4ED4-B186-9B92A30E5A11.jpeg

That rug was a hand me down from this mare, who wore it all day out at grass before coming in at night to her straw bed and her jute rug. She was 17 (2 years older than me in the pic) and this was at the end of a season’s hunting.

563F71E9-EF79-49A9-8016-3A655104D1A1.jpeg
 
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L&M

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Most yards are over stocked because frankly they are not making enough money if they kept the “required” horse to land ratio. So it has become common place to add as many stables as possible to increase numbers and obviously revenue. I am not saying paying for an expensive fancy yard gives more turnout (as you said, those yards often have less as geared more towards comp horses). But your average diy/part livery yard wouldn’t need as many horses to make a living if owners were paying more. Simple maths.

Totally agree with this - when I did diy livery (2007 - 2013) the clients got a well drained and maintained 1 acre paddock, stable, shared tack and feeds rooms, use of a 60x40 menage and off road hacking - all for £25 pw. If I even mentioned a price rise they would be on the look for elsewhere - as someone else has already mentioned you couldn't board a dog for more than a couple of days for that, so why do people think livery should cost so little?

I gave up after 6 yrs, I never made any profit and was often left out of pocket in recovering land and general maintenance, (and it made me miserable seeing how some people managed their horses and abused my hard earned facilities).
 

The Fuzzy Furry

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Totally agree with this - when I did diy livery (2007 - 2013) the clients got a well drained and maintained 1 acre paddock, stable, shared tack and feeds rooms, use of a 60x40 menage and off road hacking - all for £25 pw. If I even mentioned a price rise they would be on the look for elsewhere - as someone else has already mentioned you couldn't board a dog for more than a couple of days for that, so why do people think livery should cost so little?

I gave up after 6 yrs, I never made any profit and was often left out of pocket in recovering land and general maintenance, (and it made me miserable seeing how some people managed their horses and abused my hard earned facilities).

Lol, I was charging £25pw for stable and field, direct onto hacking......
In the mid 1980s!
And through the 90s too.
 

Gingerwitch

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It's still £25 to £28 round this way for a stable and grass..... schools sometimes extra and services expensive but not much if a price rise for the basics. One yard is £50 a week for full grass livery. Includes hay, wormers, feet trims and daily checks.
 

Frumpoon

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So much can be done with ideas and imagination. We too did everything on a budget and gates were the key to a lot of it. Thanks to gates we have small spaces, larger spaces, all the way up to opening everything up on hard surfaces.

I haven't found that pens on their own/or all weather turnout idea work very well on their own, the horses eat and then stand by the gate. It works better if the pen/turnout area is the horses home with a shelter/stable. That way the horses use both stable/pen.

I have just been looking (online) at a livery set up. Not a stable in sight. Very large barn, open front with a hangover, divided acrossways into 4 bays. Large pen (the size of the inside area) for each bay. Straw inside, carpetfibre outside. About 4 equines in each bay all playing, lying down together and just living together.

sounds like bliss

where is it?.
 
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