Normalizing restricted turnnout ?

[PapaverFollis]

I think my horses are happiest when they are mooching around in a calm way as a little herd. I don't think they are all that happy when they are snorting and charging about.

 

[iknowmyvalue]

I think people mostly make the best of what they’ve got, and that’s all we can ask for. And I think a lot depends on the horse. Current yard has 24/7 turnout in summer and 8-4pm turnout in winter, I think they’ve only been in all day for a few days this winter (most of them in the last week!) when the weather has been really extreme. partly because a lot of the fields don’t have a huge amount of shelter. Previous yard had fairly limited turnout in the winter, so if horses were exercised they often didn’t go out (but they tried to get them all out for a few hours a week) and would go on the walker the other end of the day instead. All of the horses seemed pretty happy with this, no particular behaviour problems or silliness in the field. Most of the silliness was actually because they wanted to come IN from the fields.

I think it does also depend on the horse. Henry used to decide when he’d had enough of being out and jump/crash through the fence and take himself to his stable and wait to be let in (thankfully he’s stopped that particular habit now ?) Even after 6 months strict box rest for an injury, we turned him in out a turnout pen (woodchip so it wasn’t slippy) expecting some silliness but nope, a quick roll and back to the most important business of stuffing his face with hay...

Earlier this afternoon I thought I’d be a good owner and let him back in the field after riding him so he could have another hour or two out there, and so he wouldn’t be stood in the yard on his own. he had other ideas and took me a good 5-10 minutes to actually get him into the field and convince him that he was going out and no he couldn’t turn round and drag me back to his stable. Now I’m not saying I think horses should be in 24/7, just that modern horses are a long way from wild and a lot of them thrive on routines that may not be “natural” but work for them...

 

[Goldenstar]

if you have an off grass cushings or laminitic then a lot as people don't seem to find it very easy to get.

But that’s not natural if it keeping horses was natural those horses would be dead .
Horses would be breeding indiscriminately because theres no bigger removal of the right to natural behaviour than mass castration. Horses fighting each other constantly .
My horses get turnout daily they never ever get no turnout without exercise of some type unless they need box rest .
But it’s a fact of life sometimes turnout and exercise gets restricted by the weather like now for me .
I can’t exercise I am managing group turnout ( six hours today ) when this snow starts to melt it’s going to be very hard to get them safely to and from the field , if it melts during the day and get cold at night it’s going to be dangerous .
I have twelve acres for four horses atm I am buying another 3.75 which I hope will change how I use the grass so I can keep them out at night longer every year.
This year it was Christmas Eve they had to come in they where coming in the morning for work and food until then.
I will have just shy of 14 acres for four horses that’s not possible in most situations I will truly be able to have better large poor grass field type turnout .

 

[JoannaC]

It would be very lovely if everyone who had a horse could offer it enough acres to be turned out the whole time with forage in the hedgerows and miles to roam with their pals, natural shelter lovely drained ground that was so vast it never poached but this is completely unrealistic for the majority of horse owners in the UK. Even those of us lucky enough to have the horses at home have to adapt to their needs. I have only had to bring mine in at night after the 3rd lot of snow because the pesky pony keeps escaping but when they could choose for themselves they actually chose to spend most of the night in the stables. The hay would be hung in the middle of the barn and some scattered out in the field and not in the stables but each morning the majority of poo was in the actual stable so from that I deduce they really are quite happy to be in. When mine start running round the field like loons I don't see it as them having fun I see it that they are cold, hungry and want to be indoors with hay, water and their friends around them. Don't get me wrong i'm totally against horses being stabled 24/7 for any length of time but some people go too far the other way leaving their horses out when they are cold, bored and hungry and more likely to injure themselves. Most yards are set up so the horses can see their neighbours and horses opposite so whilst they may not be able to touch each other they certainly don't feel alone.

 

[Cortez]

Unlike perhaps the majority of people on here, I have actually observed horses in the most natural state that can be found nowadays - range mustangs in Colorado and Wyoming. They spent 100% NO time running around with their tails in the air, lived an extremely stressful life, died rather younger than most domesticated equines and often lived solitary lives away from any equine company. People's expectation of a "natural" life for horses in this part of the world is largely romantic fantasy. If you want to own a domesticated, rideable horse you are going to have to interrupt it's day in some way or other, and I for one have no problem in doing whatever I deem fit to accomplish what I want to do with my horse.

 

[Dizzy socks]

I feel like Paddy's having quite a hard time in a way, when I feel like there isn't much disagreement. No one is arguing about whether stabling at all is wrong, just that stabling for the entirety of the winter/year without any form of turnout - whether that be on grass or not - isn't ideal for their physical or mental health.
There seem to be a multitude of threads on here where posters ask for help with their horse, and the most commonly offered solution is to turn it out more/at all.

 

[Cortez]

I feel like Paddy's having quite a hard time in a way, when I feel like there isn't much disagreement. No one is arguing about whether stabling at all is wrong, just that stabling for the entirety of the winter/year without any form of turnout - whether that be on grass or not - isn't ideal for their physical or mental health.
There seem to be a multitude of threads on here where posters ask for help with their horse, and the most commonly offered solution is to turn it out more/at all.

Well no, I think you'll find that the usual recommendation is to work it more/better and feed it less.

 

[Dizzy socks]

Well no, I think you'll find that the usual recommendation is to work it more/better and feed it less.

I would say that all 3 are regularly recommended, but turnout and feeding are often easier, especially where people have become scared of the horse.

I don't think that saying that horses should *ideally* have some form of turnout is especially controversial?

 

[Cortez]

I would say that all 3 are pretty important, but turnout and feeding are often easier, especially where people have become scared of the horse.

I don't think that saying that horses should *ideally* have some form of turnout is especially controversial?

NOBODY is disputing that fact. Literally nobody.

 

[Goldenstar]

I have seen a huge herd of around 100 horses on the mountains in New Mexico .
Living among cattle herds amazing to watch them.While I was there an old horse came down to the ranch on his own he had mild colic .
They caught him wormed him kept him a couple of days then he wondered back out again .
You had to see it to believe it .
This was a motley crew of rescues mares and youngsters they got eaten by things now and again and one of the cowgirls had shot a youngster who went down in snow the winter before .
I would have rather shot my horse myself that had it living that life .

 

[Dizzy socks]

NOBODY is disputing that fact. Literally nobody.

Fair enough - maybe I'm misreading, in which case I apologise; I'm pretty knocked out by tonsillitis at the moment, so my mental faculties may be even weaker than they are anyway.

I'll go and reread and pipe down.

 

[Winters100]

My take on this is that there has to be a measure of 'reasonableness'. We have to do our best in the circumstances, but also we need to remember that it is not our 'right' to own a horse, and that we have to be able to cater to their needs.

My personal view is that turnout is a necessity, but maybe others have more time than me to hand graze / walk etc and can manage without. I really could not and would not be able to keep horses if they could not have daily turn out.

I have also learned that mine need company, having previously had one on individual turnout. I had put her alone as she was not getting on with the pack she was in, and I thought she was happy. This is one of the problems - horses sometimes 'cope', and it was a big error on my part that I mistook coping for contentment. I had my big lesson when we put a little gelding in with her and I realised that she had been lonely. Although she had neighbors either side who she could see and touch it was not the same for her.

Since then I got 2 more horses so they are turned out together dawn to dusk. YO has allowed me to have the bars between their boxes removed, so now they can touch each other and interact when they are in at night. If I leave the yard I will have them replaced, but for now I really like the arrangement. Of course this would not work for every horse, but I do think that we need to be open to listening more to our horses and trying to understand what they tolerate and what they like.

 

[Abi90]

My mare lived out until she was 4. She was stabled over winter once. The following winter she was turned out on a 20 acre field in a herd of 7 horses, with a field shelter and natural shelter and loads of natural food and a hay bale, literally the perfect life for a horse.... at lunch time every day through winter she stood at the gate neighing to come in until the weather improved. From spring she didn’t come up to the gate.

She had not been habituated to being in. She wanted to be in because it was more comfortable for her during the winter weather!

 

[bouncing_ball]

no problem with the exercise. The problem I have is that with 24/7 stabled horses their only movement is exercise. They have no chance to be horses and indulge in horse behaviour.

I think it depends. I’ve got a horse on box rest currently. He can chat through bars on to his neighbours on both sides. (One side is also on box rest, other side is stabled daytimes).

I’m giving him chance to roll, doing 3 lots of 5 minutes hand walking to break his day up. He chats in hand to other horses. He’s tied up outside his friends stable to mutual groom. He gets curry combed daily, gets fresh succulents. He’s got adlib hay in a box in his stable. He wears a massage rug for several cycles a day. It’s not perfect but he’s definitely got some social interactions and chances to be a horse.

 

[Gingerwitch]

The point originally was questioning if restricted turnnout is being normalized. I was on a yard where we were promised turnnout every day after they had been in half of Oct all Nov, Dec,Jan, Feb and half of March we were then asked to keep in for another 6 weeks til end of April si we could have summer grass. Really si we go from zero to 24/7 turnnout in one day. Good job vets were down the road.
I have had horses for a great number if years. Its only been the last 5 when I have started to see restricted turn out and tiny individual paddocks with no shelter and tipped over water buckets. Nought so pitiful than empty fields on a sunny winter day or horses standing under a sparrow shadow for some shade with a kicked over bucket and the poor horse pouring at it.

 

[hollyandivy123]

i think there are horses for courses, as you lot will no know what my fantasy yard is from further up the thread...........

how horses are kept is obviously a variable hot topic, personally i think we have complicated things and most horses as cortex says, more work and less feed............

i was at one place with two horses and 2 feed bins, chaff and one with un-molasses mix, i also fed general minerals and a bit of linseed. another livery at the same place had 6 bins for one horse, whose feed was breakfast of type 1 and supper of type 2, and the supplements was sooooo many boxes............i only bring this up as a comparison and possibly to show over thinking and following to much product placement (you should see the matchy matchy this pony has as well)

but the reality we have to remember is the cost of running a yard, the, staff costs. taxes, business rates per stable etc etc. which means the YO/YM has to make two basic choices, increase the number of clients to cover these costs proportionally which will have a knock on effect on turnout etc or increase the cost of the stable etc to the client so the land is not over grazed etc etc.

Maybe us as liveries need to take some of the responsibility, not paying a realistic basic price cost............as a comparison the cost of a dog in a kennel for 1 week on a quick search can range from 150-280............(this might be a new career for me)

 

[Goldenstar]

Winters are getting wetter as in periods of very very heavy rain .
And yes livery is too cheap .

 

[Michen]

The point originally was questioning if restricted turnnout is being normalized. I was on a yard where we were promised turnnout every day after they had been in half of Oct all Nov, Dec,Jan, Feb and half of March we were then asked to keep in for another 6 weeks til end of April si we could have summer grass. Really si we go from zero to 24/7 turnnout in one day. Good job vets were down the road.
I have had horses for a great number if years. Its only been the last 5 when I have started to see restricted turn out and tiny individual paddocks with no shelter and tipped over water buckets. Nought so pitiful than empty fields on a sunny winter day or horses standing under a sparrow shadow for some shade with a kicked over bucket and the poor horse pouring at it.

Are you prepared to pay double your livery bills (if you are at livery) though so YOs can afford to reduce the amount of horses on the same available land?

Most people aren’t.

 

[Goldenstar]

The point originally was questioning if restricted turnnout is being normalized. I was on a yard where we were promised turnnout every day after they had been in half of Oct all Nov, Dec,Jan, Feb and half of March we were then asked to keep in for another 6 weeks til end of April si we could have summer grass. Really si we go from zero to 24/7 turnnout in one day. Good job vets were down the road.
I have had horses for a great number if years. Its only been the last 5 when I have started to see restricted turn out and tiny individual paddocks with no shelter and tipped over water buckets. Nought so pitiful than empty fields on a sunny winter day or horses standing under a sparrow shadow for some shade with a kicked over bucket and the poor horse pouring at it.

Poor care is Poor care whatever system the horse is on .

 

[Michen]

Ha, we all posted basically the same thing at the same time ?

If owners want more turn out, cough up basically.

 

[DabDab]

.

Since then I got 2 more horses so they are turned out together dawn to dusk. YO has allowed me to have the bars between their boxes removed, so now they can touch each other and interact when they are in at night. If I leave the yard I will have them replaced, but for now I really like the arrangement. Of course this would not work for every horse, but I do think that we need to be open to listening more to our horses and trying to understand what they tolerate and what they like.

But why would you assume that because someone has made different decisions to you that they haven't also considered this?

I have three horses who are very different individuals. My gelding has been kept in lots of different setups, including a long period of being turned out alone (as a youngster he was an overexcitable thug). Aside from one mare that he was kept with who he did seem to mourn when she moved on, he has never seemed to care one way or another. For the last 4 years he has been turned out with my mares and I would say that 90% of his interactions with them involve chasing them off food.

Another one of mine I would never dream on turning out alone or with just one other, because although she doesn't have separation anxiety, I can see that the tendency would be there given the right circumstances. But she is half TB and is very thoroughbred-y in that way. TBs are very prone to herd-bound anxiety, partly because we've bred that into them as it is a useful trait in a racehorse.

 

[Gingerwitch]

Ha, we all posted basically the same thing at the same time ?

If owners want more turn out, cough up basically.

The more you pay does not always equate to the best care. Wirsr yard ever was £125 a week no exercise and I bale of shavings. Promised turn out every day shown the paddocks with beautiful hedgerows..... found out my horses were not going out and being given sed to make them look sleepy after a full day out on the field. You had to phone 20 mins before you arrived so gate could be opened.... this is when you would see horses being led to stable as you arrived. Look just cone in..... no no dont worry about the poo picking we will do that. Lying gits horses had not even been out. Amazing what you can see from the high road and a pair of crap binoculars if you get suspicious.

 

[Michen]

The more you pay does not always equate to the best care. Wirsr yard ever was £125 a week no exercise and I bale of shavings. Promised turn out every day shown the paddocks with beautiful hedgerows..... found out my horses were not going out and being given sed to make them look sleepy after a full day out on the field. You had to phone 20 mins before you arrived so gate could be opened.... this is when you would see horses being led to stable as you arrived. Look just cone in..... no no dont worry about the poo picking we will do that. Lying gits horses had not even been out. Amazing what you can see from the high road and a pair of crap binoculars if you get suspicious.

I’m not talking about money equal care. But if owns paid more there may be more land per horse as yards can afford to not overstock down much.

 

[Gingerwitch]

I’m not talking about money equal care. But if owns paid more there may be more land per horse as yards can afford to not overstock down much.

I think that is true to a certain point but not sure if it's a greedy land owner or owners on a shoestring that are the biggest issue. Field by me was rented out. 2 at first then 3 then 4. I counted 7 last week. No grass just mud stragglers of hay. Farmer has rented the field en bloc so he us not getting anymore. Disappointed at the renter as niwbon facebook appealing for free hay for her rescues.

 

[paddy555]

The way you describe keeping your horses doesn't sound that natural tbh.

Just because you have self-styled yourself as an expert on natural horse behaviour does not mean that a random list of behaviours that you have come up with is either exhaustive or the most important ones.

ETA: none of my horses have ever had to dig grass out of the snow (on your list). As you can imagine, their misery at the absence of this in their lives is palpable ?

I don't get much of this and I am not a self styled expert. I keep my horses in exactly the same way as many people do. If by natural you mean keeping them in line with feral horses, living out 24/7 etc comparing them to mustangs then no I don't and I am not advocating that anyone should.

The thing I am advocating is that people should not be keeping them in stables 24/7 with minimal exercise they should turn them out daily into fields with company so they can have some sort of decent life. Not be cooped up all day.

as for digging grass out of snow I am really surprised. I have watched 3 do it this week. They did not "have " to do it. I am sure they do very well on their 2 feeds and ad lib hay. They do it out of choice. If you watch ferals they do exactly the same although in their case I expect hunger plays a part. Just a normal part of horse behaviour.

 

[Cortez]

I don't get much of this and I am not a self styled expert. I keep my horses in exactly the same way as many people do. If by natural you mean keeping them in line with feral horses, living out 24/7 etc comparing them to mustangs then no I don't and I am not advocating that anyone should.

The thing I am advocating is that people should not be keeping them in stables 24/7 with minimal exercise they should turn them out daily into fields with company so they can have some sort of decent life. Not be cooped up all day.

as for digging grass out of snow I am really surprised. I have watched 3 do it this week. They did not "have " to do it. I am sure they do very well on their 2 feeds and ad lib hay. They do it out of choice. If you watch ferals they do exactly the same although in their case I expect hunger plays a part. Just a normal part of horse behaviour.

Literally nobody is advocating keeping horses in 24/7 with no turnout as a brilliant way to keep them. You seem to be very rigid and not accepting that there is more than one way to keep horses properly.

 

[paddy555]

But that’s not natural if it keeping horses was natural those horses would be dead .
Horses would be breeding indiscriminately because theres no bigger removal of the right to natural behaviour than mass castration. Horses fighting each other constantly .
.

Below in italiscs is what I said about grass free turnout. I have looked very hard but cannot see the word natural in there at all. My comments were in fact about improvements that could be made to yards for the benefit of owners of laminitic horses. The only part of "natural" in there is that horses should go out for part or all of the day so they could relate to each other as horses.

Not sure where you have dreamt up about lack of castration or horses breeding indiscriminately. I have never commented on that ever I don't think on here. Possibly in your imagination you hoped I had so you could criticise me but sadly I haven't. Sorry about that.

Big changes are needed in horse keeping methods for the leisure horse. Livery yards need to adapt to provide tracks,, grass free turnout, dry turn out, stocking rates equal to the grazing available and horses able to go out for part of the day all year round.

 

[Goldenstar]

The more you pay does not always equate to the best care. Wirsr yard ever was £125 a week no exercise and I bale of shavings. Promised turn out every day shown the paddocks with beautiful hedgerows..... found out my horses were not going out and being given sed to make them look sleepy after a full day out on the field. You had to phone 20 mins before you arrived so gate could be opened.... this is when you would see horses being led to stable as you arrived. Look just cone in..... no no dont worry about the poo picking we will do that. Lying gits horses had not even been out. Amazing what you can see from the high road and a pair of crap binoculars if you get suspicious.

My horses at home cost me more than £125 a week at home

 

[DabDab]

I don't get much of this and I am not a self styled expert. I keep my horses in exactly the same way as many people do. If by natural you mean keeping them in line with feral horses, living out 24/7 etc comparing them to mustangs then no I don't and I am not advocating that anyone should.

The thing I am advocating is that people should not be keeping them in stables 24/7 with minimal exercise they should turn them out daily into fields with company so they can have some sort of decent life. Not be cooped up all day.

as for digging grass out of snow I am really surprised. I have watched 3 do it this week. They did not "have " to do it. I am sure they do very well on their 2 feeds and ad lib hay. They do it out of choice. If you watch ferals they do exactly the same although in their case I expect hunger plays a part. Just a normal part of horse behaviour.

No, you quite pointedly asked specific posters if their horses express the list of behaviours that you had come up with as natural behaviours.

Nobody on this thread has advocated 24/7 stabling. Multiple people have pointed this out to you but you have continued arguing with this imaginary, hypothetical poster.

I don't turn my horses out on snow covered grass - it is slippery and treacherous and rips the turf clean off. A single day of turnout in snow can destroy a field that would otherwise last a winter. They get arena turnout in snow. There is absolutely no part of me that believes they suffer from not digging in snow for grass

 

[paddy555]

I have seen a huge herd of around 100 horses on the mountains in New Mexico .
Living among cattle herds amazing to watch them.While I was there an old horse came down to the ranch on his own he had mild colic .
They caught him wormed him kept him a couple of days then he wondered back out again .
You had to see it to believe it .
This was a motley crew of rescues mares and youngsters they got eaten by things now and again and one of the cowgirls had shot a youngster who went down in snow the winter before .
I would have rather shot my horse myself that had it living that life .

that is all very interesting, however I am merely advocating that horses in the UK should not be stabled for 24/7 but should have a few hours out with each other every day so they can canter around, groom, play and whatever else they like to do as horses. This is BTW normal healthy horses not those on box rest (before anyone manages to twist my comment)

Mine do that each day and so far, although obviously I must bear it in mind, they have not been eaten by anything nor have I seen the need to shoot any of them on a regular basis.