Normalizing restricted turnnout ?

Winters100

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But why would you assume that because someone has made different decisions to you that they haven't also considered this?
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Did I say that people who have made different decisions to me had not considered these issues? Sorry if I did, but I can't find that post. My point was simply that even as experienced owners it is easy to make mistakes, as I did.
 

paddy555

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No, you quite pointedly asked specific posters if their horses express the list of behaviours that you had come up with as natural behaviours.

s


I asked in post 221 WHEN the stabled horse was able to peform it's natural behaviour and in 233 IF the horse had a right to this behaviour.

I cannot see anywhere that I asked WHETHER their horses expressed that behaviour.
 

ycbm

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Paddy what you want for all horses is not achievable in the modern UK.

I have owned horses who did not want any of what you claim all horses want, but that's not the point I want to focus on.

Should the horses which are not being kept in the way you feel all horses should be kept be allowed to die out and not be replaced?

Because it seems to me that is the logical conclusion of what you are saying, that the number of horses kept in the UK should drastically reduce. And I'm pretty certain that most of those horses would rather be alive in what you think are sub-optimal living arrangements than never be alive at all.
.

???
 

DabDab

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Did I say that people who have made different decisions to me had not considered these issues? Sorry if I did, but I can't find that post. My point was simply that even as experienced owners it is easy to make mistakes, as I did.

'Why would you' read as 'why would one'. It's always the general vibe from a lot of these posts - that someone making different decisions regarding turnout must just not understand how terribly repressed and shut down their horses are. And it is often directed at people who actually seem to be pretty tuned into and focussed on their horses needs.
 

Sussexbythesea

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Some horse like this style of stables. Others hate them as not privacy from other horses when eating and feel threatened by neighbours.
Absolutely! My old boy hated being in an indoor barn with grills he likes privacy in his bedroom. He used to double-barrel the sides and was always very defensive over food. Another time he was in a stable where the stable doors were right next to each other and the horse next door wouldn’t stop interfering with him if he looked out. Initially he put up with it but then became aggressive lunging at him and kicking the walls. He’s not at all like that in the field or anywhere else and will happily share haynets etc.
 

DabDab

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I asked in post 221 WHEN the stabled horse was able to peform it's natural behaviour and in 233 IF the horse had a right to this behaviour.

I cannot see anywhere that I asked WHETHER their horses expressed that behaviour.

? So by 'when' you meant the poster you were talking to to give you a time of day did you?
 

Winters100

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'Why would you' read as 'why would one'. It's always the general vibe from a lot of these posts - that someone making different decisions regarding turnout must just not understand how terribly repressed and shut down their horses are. And it is often directed at people who actually seem to be pretty tuned into and focussed on their horses needs.

Sorry, but I am still not really following you. If I said something that offended you my apologies.
 

scats

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I don’t think comparing domesticated horses with those in the wild is particularly useful really. Of course we can’t keep horses like that, nor would we want to (from the perspective of wanting to interact and ride with them, if nothing else). But I think we should be aware of the horses innate behaviours and do our best to provide some of these as best we can, whether that be out in the field or in the stable.
People are always going to defend the way they keep their own horses. In most cases, everyone is doing their best given the situation they are in with regards land, rules of the yard etc.
On the whole, horses are pretty amenable creatures and will accept most situations we put them in, which perhaps leads to people thinking, rightly of wrongly, that the horse is happy with that arrangement- whether that be stood in a stable 23 hours a day or out in a muddy field 24/7.
 

DabDab

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Sorry, but I am still not really following you. If I said something that offended you my apologies.

You didn't offend me. I'll guarantee you that my horses get more turnout than most posters on either side of this discussion.

In response to my post you said that you didn't specifically say that. I was clarifying that I meant that this was the general vibe from your post, rather than something you specifically said. It's a general vibe that always pops up on threads like this one, and I was discussing/asking why so many people go down that line of thinking.
 

Sussexbythesea

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Ha, we all posted basically the same thing at the same time ?

If owners want more turn out, cough up basically.

I don’t think paying more usually gets you more grazing. Most yards have finite grazing and use provision of facilities as the way of increasing the livery income. Decent grazing and turn-out has always been a top priority for me. I’ve generally found the pricier the yard the less grazing actually offered. A lot of the pasture near here they’ve ploughed up to grow turnips for the sheep! More profitable I guess.
 

Wishfilly

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I agree with whoever said there are multiple right ways to keep a horse, and also whoever said most people are doing what they can with what they have available to them.

However, I was thinking about this thread today. Our temperatures are back above freezing, so the fields have defrosted. The weather was miserable (especially this morning) but IMO there was no reason not to turn out. However, I'd say a good 50% of the horses on the yard got no turnout today, and some of the rest only got an hour or two in the afternoon- which, each to their own BUT I do think actually restricted turnout has got more normalised and some people are increasingly reluctant to turn out even when the opportunity is there.

In regards to the conversation up thread- I would happily pay more livery for my ideal yard BUT I suspect my ideal yard wouldn't be the same as other people's ideal yards, and there's no way I'll ever have the money to build my ideal yard.

I do think there is perhaps an issue with yard owners overstocking and not being willing/able to invest in facilities like all weather turnout which makes the overstocking workable.
 

Michen

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I don’t think paying more usually gets you more grazing. Most yards have finite grazing and use provision of facilities as the way of increasing the livery income. Decent grazing and turn-out has always been a top priority for me. I’ve generally found the pricier the yard the less grazing actually offered. A lot of the pasture near here they’ve ploughed up to grow turnips for the sheep! More profitable I guess.

Most yards are over stocked because frankly they are not making enough money if they kept the “required” horse to land ratio. So it has become common place to add as many stables as possible to increase numbers and obviously revenue. I am not saying paying for an expensive fancy yard gives more turnout (as you said, those yards often have less as geared more towards comp horses). But your average diy/part livery yard wouldn’t need as many horses to make a living if owners were paying more. Simple maths.
 
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bouncing_ball

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I agree with whoever said there are multiple right ways to keep a horse, and also whoever said most people are doing what they can with what they have available to them.

However, I was thinking about this thread today. Our temperatures are back above freezing, so the fields have defrosted. The weather was miserable (especially this morning) but IMO there was no reason not to turn out. However, I'd say a good 50% of the horses on the yard got no turnout today, and some of the rest only got an hour or two in the afternoon- which, each to their own BUT I do think actually restricted turnout has got more normalised and some people are increasingly reluctant to turn out even when the opportunity is there.
I’m at a fairly expensive part livery yard, with good facilities and turnout well draining.

I’m lucky enough to have about 16 hours of over night turnout.

But it’s not popular as it’s a 17 minute round trip to fetch in / turnout. So riding before or after work means some leg work.
 

Littlewills

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I’m not talking about money equal care. But if owns paid more there may be more land per horse as yards can afford to not overstock down much.

The grass livery yard near me is £50 a month. Its 5 miles from the city centre where land should be at a premium for building so even I cant quite work it out, but there you go.

More money doesnt equal more land for turnout from what I've seen. The same way more money doesnt equal better care, Its completely random.
 

milliepops

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.

More money doesnt equal more land for turnout from what I've seen. The same way more money doesnt equal better care, Its completely random.
Yup
The most expensive yard I've been on had the most questionable care and the stingiest turnout. Probably the only one run as a proper business paying a proper wage too. There was loads of land, we just weren't allowed to use most of it. Frustrating watching grass grow, die off and rot ?
 
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Winters100

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The point originally was questioning if restricted turnnout is being normalized. .

Good point. Getting back to the original question from what I read here it is normalised in the UK. It seems that in the UK you need to be 'grateful' to find somewhere that offers daily turnout, whereas in other countries where I have kept horses (Russia, Poland, Czechia and Hungary) it is the norm. I would say however that in all of these countries agricultural land costs a fraction of what it costs in the UK, labour costs are lower, but livery prices are the same or more. In general keeping a sport or recreational horse is more of a luxury, which is good in some ways and bad in others.
 

hottoddy

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Why is that a long time to leave a horse stabled? If the horse is adequately moved both ends of the day, it's what some horses are kept like the majority of winter. It's not remotely a long time to leave a horse stabled if you are looking after it sufficiently. If you horse picks up an injury the subsequent stabling could be 3 months of controlled box rest walking.

This.
I am very particular about the surfaces I work my dressage horses on in order to prevent injury. Why then would I turn them out in n frozen, rutted ground and give them the opportunity to charge around on it?
 

Winters100

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Surely in this case you need to find livery which has ground which is not rutted rather than keeping the horse inside for long periods?

My experience of turning out on a daily basis is that they tend not to pick up injuries because going out is not exciting for them.

On the other hand horses standing in for many hours a day are unlikely to have long careers.
 

Michen

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Surely in this case you need to find livery which has ground which is not rutted rather than keeping the horse inside for long periods?

My experience of turning out on a daily basis is that they tend not to pick up injuries because going out is not exciting for them.

On the other hand horses standing in for many hours a day are unlikely to have long careers.

Really? My horses at livery are out on 4.5 acres for 2 horses. They have loads of grass. But the gate area is rutted, that’s not an uncommon situation on the sort of ground we are on despite their being tons of land for them.

why on earth would I find another livery yard for the sake of the odd week or day of a winter where I keep them in off frozen poached ground? Given they are out 6-5pm the rest of the time ?

It’s all very well that they spend most of the turnout time not on the poached gate area. But it takes one bad step on that kind of ground to cause an injury.
 

TPO

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I’m not talking about money equal care. But if owns paid more there may be more land per horse as yards can afford to not overstock down much.

Not how it works in reality sadly.

Say they charge 10pw for a horse so the price goes up to 20pw to have more land per horse. It wont be long until it's still 20pw but owner figures they can fit more horses onto the land/restrict turnout.

I've first hand seen it happen on numerous yards. I'm not begruding owners making a living, far from it, but in a lot of cases greed comes to the fore and if they are making X from 20 horse think how much they could make from 20 or 40...

There is a shortage of yards around here and I'd guess UK wide based on the hundreds of "looking for livery" posts that there are. So it's hard to vote with your feet when 1) there is literally nowhere else to go and 2) the majority accept below par offerings leaving those with higher (normal!) standards to look like they are fussy and/or unreasonable

I was on a yard where the owners seemed to love "duvet days" and kept their horses in at the drop of a hat despite that particular yard allowing year round turnout.

I dont know why some.owners prefer this way of horse keeping. Easier, cleaner, quicker or just an excuse to dress the horse up in newest stable rugs?? Honestly not a clue but there are lots of owners who are choosing to keep their horses in as often as possible and seem to think that they are made out of sugar and will melt ??‍♀️
 

DabDab

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I need to not come on threads like this really. I am always mystified by the bitchiness and holier than thou garbage in the horse world. I have stabled various horses on lots of different livery yards over the years and I have literally never looked at other people's horses and thought well why are they keeping them in do they think they will melt/they are depriving that animal of natural behaviour/don't they know the horse will go nuts if not turned out. Unless you are talking about horses that are stabled most of the time for months on end, why would that mental line of judgement even pop into your head?


In answer to the original question no, I don't think it is being normalised because like a lot of people commented at the start of the thread, stabling around the clock was far more normal when I was a kid. It has, to my completely unscientific observation, become more normal to give hunters and comp horses daily turnout than it was 20 years ago.


ETA: also as other people have said up thread, I really hope that all weather turnout areas/tracks become more normal on livery yards in the next decade or so. I suspect there would be far fewer decisions to keep horses in if this was an option. As would using more overnight turnout systems, rather than out during the day, in at night.
 
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milliepops

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Surely in this case you need to find livery which has ground which is not rutted rather than keeping the horse inside for long periods?
Any yard that has clay fields will freeze into ruts in the conditions we've had in the last couple of weeks. I'd have to travel hours to get away from clay ??????
The flip side is that it generally recovers really fast.
 

milliepops

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I need to not come on threads like this really. I am always mystified by the bitchiness and holier than thou garbage in the horse world. I have stabled various horses on lots of different livery yards over the years and I have literally never looked at other people's horses and thought well why are they keeping them in do they think they will melt/they are depriving that animal of natural behaviour/don't they know the horse will go nuts if not turned out. Unless you are talking about horses that are stabled most of the time for months on end, why would that mental line of judgement even pop into your head?


In answer to the original question no, I don't think it is being normalised because like a lot of people commented at the start of the thread, stabling around the clock was far more normal when I was a kid. It has, to my completely unscientific observation, become more normal to give hunters and comp horses daily turnout than it was 20 years ago.


ETA: also as other people have said up thread, I really hope that all weather turnout areas/tracks become more normal on livery yards in the next decade or so. I suspect there would be far fewer decisions to keep horses in if this was an option. As would using more overnight turnout systems, rather than out during the day, in at night.
I agree, but I think sometimes it's hard not to involve yourself if the other people are complaining to you about their horse for xyz reason, when you can see the management could be altered to help.

I think the key for happy livery survival is to ignore everything (within reason) unless specifically asked your opinion, and then to not expect your advice to be taken ;) much easier to rub along together then.

I'm not on a proper livery now, I'm the only one. But my YO is planning to put an all-weather area in the most accessible field. That would solve the problem here, although if would be slightly awkward taking turns. a place to roll and a short potter about is really what the horses here want. I can't do that at home so we'll just have to live with the ruts there ;)
 

ycbm

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I'm not the hugest fan of all weather turnout. It's usually a small area, not even half an acre (a 20x60 arena is less than 1/4) and on a nasty winter day I often see horses huddled miserably with no shelter looking as if they be happier inside a stable.
.
 

Goldenstar

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Surely in this case you need to find livery which has ground which is not rutted rather than keeping the horse inside for long periods?

My experience of turning out on a daily basis is that they tend not to pick up injuries because going out is not exciting for them.

On the other hand horses standing in for many hours a day are unlikely to have long careers.

How on earth do you achieve that ?
By not using the fields .
Rutts winter and horse turnout ruts are inevitable
 

Tiddlypom

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How on earth do you achieve that ?
By not using the fields
Rutts winter and horse turnout ruts are inevitable
By saving part of your turnout by keeping some field(s) with no horses on all year, maybe have sheep on instead, them once the ground has frozen hard you have your pristine non rutted turnout.

Make sure that you take the horses off again before the thaw appears, you don’t want any hoofprints messing up this sacrosanct turf.

*impractical for most of us*

My land is loam, and not too rutted, but even so there are ankle deep hoof prints in places. On clay, people report sinking in up to knee height - those holes are going to be lethal to (wo)man and beast in a hard frost.

Common sense seems not to be common, does it. Sometimes horses are safer kept in temporarily.
 

scats

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I'm not the hugest fan of all weather turnout. It's usually a small area, not even half an acre (a 20x60 arena is less than 1/4) and on a nasty winter day I often see horses huddled miserably with no shelter looking as if they be happier inside a stable.
.

I think if used just for an hour or two they are much better. They offer the horse a bit of freedom and time to roll, and have a play/scratch with others. Plus it gets them out the way while the owner mucks out.
 

hollyandivy123

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my mates wife had a couple of horses in Texas, one was a dressage star and the options at that yard they were on was stable and 1/2 a day in a field or an all weather surface/ field shelter stable and twice a week in the field, the field shelter could be set up as a stable by closing a door.

whilst not perfect would be an alternative if you were in a clay area or small acreage and x horses. the ones with the surface could interact with either side and the actual size of it it was the length and width of a tennis court+stable, so allowed for movement, not perfect but a better solution than a 12x12 for 23h and the horse had the option of where it went indoors or out
 

oldie48

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Good point. Getting back to the original question from what I read here it is normalised in the UK. It seems that in the UK you need to be 'grateful' to find somewhere that offers daily turnout, whereas in other countries where I have kept horses (Russia, Poland, Czechia and Hungary) it is the norm. I would say however that in all of these countries agricultural land costs a fraction of what it costs in the UK, labour costs are lower, but livery prices are the same or more. In general keeping a sport or recreational horse is more of a luxury, which is good in some ways and bad in others.
Restricted turnout when the fields are very wet or frozen is normal (not normalised) and I don't know of a single yard where owners are expected to feel grateful for having access to daily turnout. Daily turnout is normal on every yard that I know and on the occasions they have to restrict turnout there are opportunities to get the horses out of their stables for some part of the day. Unless I've missed it, I can't remember anyone saying that their horses had to be stabled 24/7 for long periods and definitely no-one who has said that this would be their preferred option in Winter or at any other time. I'm sure these dreadful yards exist somewhere and there are YOs who give poor care, owners who are afraid to "canter in the school" are happy if their horses are clean but locked in a cage 24/7 etc etc but IME these are not the norm and I am offended by anyone attempting to "normalise" them as they do not represent any of the owners I know.
 

CanteringCarrot

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Turnout can be quite scarce here in this part of Germany unless you rent a field. Many leisure riders or those who don't ride keep their horses on a field with a shelter year round, but they have no facilities.

If you want facilities, then you usually get no turnout October until May. It's very common around here.

Some yards are finally catching onto paddock boxes, but they're just a box with a small paddock attached that's usually twice the size of the box. Some are also installing all weather paddocks.

At my yard my horse has a box, small paddock with hard standing and goes onto a larger paddock with his buddy for 4 hours or so midday. The paddock isn't much but enough room for them the move around and play a bit. This is one of the best set-ups in my area since we also have indoor schools, hacking, and a walker available.

They did their all weather paddocks on a budget. They had simple dirt paddocks but put road millings down, rolled it/compacted it, then put second hand artificial turf from a football/soccer field on top. Then a little bit of sand in some spots. It works better than mud and deep frozen ruts, that's for sure.

I'd prefer my horse to live in a field 24/7 with shelter, but I don't want to have to trailer every time (so 4 to 6 days a week) I want to ride or exercise him. He does best when exercised almost daily. So it's sort of a compromise.

There are, however, many leisure riders here who ride when they feel like it, or not much if at all, and think 24/7 in a box for 6-7 months is fine. Blows my mind. Idk who normalized that but many people are so complacent and ready to just throw their hands up and say "it is the way it is" instead of actually changing something...but that's a whole 'nother rant.
 
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