Nosebands and forcing your horses mouth shut....thoughts??

[kc100]

So in the absence of interesting threads and good discussion....I'm going to try and provoke some good debate amongst us few that remain!

This topic is inspired by something I have seen on Tarrsteps facebook page plus my bonkers horse that I ride....Nosebands! Bonkers horse in his aversion to anything related to a bridle hates his nose being touched, either with the bridle/noseband or even just with your hand. Of course we are working on this, minus bridle for now, just with me gently putting my hand on his nose and holding it there for a few seconds, then removing it, to make him more comfortable.

However as per Tarrsteps FB post - why do we really need them? What noseband do you all use and what benefit do you think it brings to your riding? Are we all a bit addicted to forcing the horses mouth shut with a crank/flash/dropped noseband? Are we just covering up a problem that really the horse is not comfortable and not accepting the bridle and therefore requires something like the flash to keep its mouth shut?

I bought a new bridle for bonkers the other week and found it almost impossible to find a bridle that has a plain noseband, that wasnt a show/hunter bridle. I'm mainly dressage focussed so wanted something other than a hunter bridle, but really struggled to find one. Eventually found something on Ebay with a plain noseband without flash etc but has the padding at the poll, and so far so good. I've not noticed him opening his mouth since I've been riding without a flash and trainer is happy, he's still mouthing up on the bit and generally working well without keeping his mouth forced shut by any piece of leather.

I like this bit taken from tarr's FB post (she's talking about retraining a racehorse who has had stitches on his nose, hence cant wear a noseband when ridden currently) - "I'd like him to basically have a quiet, confident mouth, closed because he's comfortable in the work, rather than cranked shut. A confident front end (mouth, jaw, poll) is made possible by creating a strong back end, so that the rider feels the horse lift and carry itself, rather than being unbalanced, on the forehand, hanging on the hands like a dead weight. The correct lightness that we're seeking isn't from no contact. It isn't from a harsh bit that he's scared to lean on. The right kind of lightness in front comes when the rear end can carry the front end, and once again, this takes lots of time (and know how) to build."

Any thoughts? Why do you use the nosebands you use? Could we all go noseband-less and still achieve the same results?

 

[JFTDWS]

Fergs wears a crank, because it was on his smart double bridle when I bought it. It's as loose as a cavesson. He wears it because we'd be kicked out of the ring without it. He has noseband-less bridles for messing about at home (old spares). He also wears a drop for jumping / low level dressage because he shares that bridle with Dae. The drop is slightly too big for him, being Dae sized, so it's fairly loose, but he does seem happy in it - possibly because it stabilises the snaffle slightly in his mouth.

I'm currently schooling bareback and, until recently, was using an old lunging bridle with no noseband and a slightly agricultural snaffle bit. The results weren't the same, but he was still producing nice work. I don't think his way of going is dependent on nosebands.

Dae wears a drop because I can use it to shut his mouth and stop him biting the lead horse when ride and lead Mostly he wears it so he doesn't bite me / other horses / himself / passing strangers...

 

[TheMule]

Mine do all their work at home in a loose cavesson. When we compete, one dressages in a drop as her tension at a competition causes her to tilt and open her mouth so that keeps her quiet in a test. The other jumps in a grackle as she tends to try to grab the bit when we up the pace a little in a jump off

 

[ljohnsonsj]

I could ride my ex racehorse without a noseband and she would behave exactly the same, i warm her up on buckle end in w/t/c so she can use her full back/neck muscles and stretch to the floor, she is not strong and by warming up like this and slowly taking up a contact instead of working her into a contact from the start,she is much nicer to ride and really 'uses' herself. I ride her in plain noseband and a snaffle for flatwork, i keep her noseband on purely because it looks better *drops head in shame* it is on loosely and to be honest, i doubt it has any effect on her at all.

However, my bigger mare who is my main showjumping one, she is a difficult one. She is extremely hot and fizzy to ride, and really quite 'gobby'. I have had multiple checks done on her mouth/face including xrays to find out why she is like she is, and their is no medical reason,she is just how she is. (She is a chestnut mare!) She is jumped in an kimblewick, with a straight noseband. Her old owners used to jump her in a running gag and grackle noseband which just made her run. She is a ****** for 'playing' with her bit and getting her tounge over (I assume accidental,as she panics when she does!) and only does it when warming up and not actually jumping so i assume this is bordem. She was probably overbitted as a youngster, and strapped down,and thats why she is so fussy in her mouth now,We are still working on that one!

 

[kc100]

Dae wears a drop because I can use it to shut his mouth and stop him biting the lead horse when ride and lead Mostly he wears it so he doesn't bite me / other horses / himself / passing strangers...

Haha.....think that is a good reason for a noseband if I've ever heard one!

 

[HufflyPuffly]

We should definitely be able to go noseband-less and achieve the same result! I really find it hard to believe that people actually think the answer is to crank the nose in?

However (isn't there always a however ), I ride Topaz in either a grackle for jumping or a crank and flash combination on her dressage bridle. Now before I get hailed in a cloud of stones for such blasphemy let me explain our situation. It starts with Topaz not being started with dressage in mind and so her ‘contact’ is/was very poor, she would evade and refuse a contact, I compounded this by constantly giving my contact away when she softened! Now with a good instructor we have made miraculous leaps forward with this issue.

For fast work and jumping she can get rude and gobby still, so I prefer a milder bit with the grackle, as she seems to prefer the grackle positioning on her face and it also stops her from really evading. Though as our contact is 100% improved we probably don’t need it anymore, but it stays as a comfort blanket to us lol.

Now for dressage I had the same problem everyone else does in that you cannot seem to find a nice fancy dressage bridle (read patent with white padding) without the dreaded crank and flash! So I bought one with the above but it is done up so loose it may as well not be there. I still like to add the very loose flash as when we’re doing something Topaz is particularly struggling/concentrating on she can lean on the bit and then open her mouth, so if this happens in a test I like to think it disguises it from the judge a bit more? Probably silly really…

Our aim has to never rely on a small bit of leather for control, or to cause the discomfort that a very tight noseband will have so our nosebands are loose and terribly ineffective in that sense, but for me they complete the look of the bridle (so conditioned to seeing horses with a noseband now!) and do have a use of a comfort blanket and slight disguise of training issues we are aware of and working on.

x x x

 

[JFTDWS]

Haha.....think that is a good reason for a noseband if I've ever heard one!

Honestly, if you had to live with the "Great Highland Shark" you'd understand :eek3:

 

[dianchi]

But if I didn't have a noseband she would look ugly

 

[kc100]

Now for dressage I had the same problem everyone else does in that you cannot seem to find a nice fancy dressage bridle (read patent with white padding) without the dreaded crank and flash!

I think we've identified a gap in the market - that was exactly what I was looking for (love a bit of patent and white!) but could not find it for love nor money without the damn flash and crank! Gave up and bought a comfort bridle with plain cavesson but is distinctly non-shiny or with any white to be seen so a poor compromise (from my dressage blingy POV) but hopefully a much happier bonkers horse instead. Does have some fancy gold/brass buckles (didnt notice them on the picture on ebay) which almost match my accidental gold stirrups (think I need glasses....saw the pic and thought they were silver!) so at least I'm sort of co-ordinated!

 

[dibbin]

Our boys are both ridden in cavessons - Jazz in a padded one with a flash loop (which has never been used) and Harley in a flat hunter one. I'll be honest, they could both be ridden without, but it makes their faces look nicer I always do Jazz's up one hole looser than it could go, so I doubt it has any effect anyway.

 

[JFTDWS]

But if I didn't have a noseband she would look ugly

Ach, and this is why the forum's getting a reputation for being lightweight and lacking serious discussion. You and your pretty pony and me and my great white shark. Poor OP trying to start a serious discussion. Dianchi and I are off to punish ourselves with a cat o' nine tails or something...

 

[khalswitz]

I wear one because I think it looks weird without one - and I also have to have one for dressage. One bridle has a plain cavesson, no flash (for those finding it hard to find one, mine is a collegiate with a plain raised cavesson, no flash!), the other is a crank but I wear it loose like a cavesson (couldn't get a normal cavesson option in SHINY).

I did have an instructor tell me to use a flash as he can sometimes show tension through lifting his lips or opening his mouth, but I won't use one. He normally does settle when I keep my leg on and ride him forward into the hand. We haven't been called on it in the ring so it can't be that bad! And I'd rather the training was right.

 

[kc100]

But if I didn't have a noseband she would look ugly

Look at this for ugly! (Stolen from Tarr's FB page again)...this is FRH Butts Abraxxas, Ingrid Klimke's horse, being ridden by her award winning groom over cavaletti....amazing really what can be achieved without tack!

 

[khalswitz]

Look at this for ugly! (Stolen from Tarr's FB page again)...this is FRH Butts Abraxxas, Ingrid Klimke's horse, being ridden by her award winning groom over cavaletti....amazing really what can be achieved without tack!

Fab isn't it? And look at the difference in the way the horse carries itself compared to how it would in a test scenario.

However, can it achieve these things because of good training *with* tack beforehand?

 

[kc100]

Back to a serious note....how many of us 'competitive' lot school in slightly more unusual manners? I.e do you do any serious schooling without certain pieces of tack? I'm very much dressage focused (bonkers isnt focused on anything AT ALL, ever) so am obviously bound by the rules in terms of competing, but at home I've had to go down other routes due to bridle/bit problems with bonkers and his awful teeth. We currently school frequently bitless (arghh the dreaded bitless word and dressage!) to give him a break from associating the bit with work in the school and I am pleased with what we are starting to achieve, he does work in an outline despite the lack of bit (we ride in a hackamore) and is soft in the contact now (started off leaning on me a lot) so I do think that examples like the above, and perhaps bitless and other less traditional methods, can be useful to horses even competing at the highest levels and not just reserved for the natural horsemanship lot.

Anyone else have any other less than traditional methods they use that seem to work? Bonkers is the least traditional creature this earth has ever seen so always interested to hear new ideas!

 

[kc100]

Fab isn't it? And look at the difference in the way the horse carries itself compared to how it would in a test scenario.

However, can it achieve these things because of good training *with* tack beforehand?

You'd have to say there is an element of that - however who is to say that Ingrid and her team dont start their youngsters off in a similar manner? Albeit I personally wouldnt be brave enough to do that on a youngster, so if it were me then yes training under tack would allow for that kind of result as seen in the picture. But going back to bonkers horse, who has had poor training in tack, left to rot for a couple of years, hates humans (well used to), teeth left in a spectacularly bad state....we can definitely say his training has had a negative effect on him rather than positive. Yet when schooling in a headcollar or bitless (well not the orbitless, that was a disaster, but the hackamore is better) he responds very well to the point where I feel more confident and comfortable jumping him in that than I would a normal bridle with bit.

That is not down to training, because his training was terrible - not sure what in this instance I'd put down his good response to the hackamore to. Relief perhaps from the bit?

 

[JFTDWS]

Well I'm schooling bareback out of necessity, but I do sometimes do it anyway just for kicks. I ride him and jump on a neck rein and stuff like that. I imagine I don't count as a serious dressage person though

 

[Pigeon]

I tried Pip in a drop, he told me where to go.

Pippy doesn't NEED a noseband, he gnashes a bit but that's a stress thing rather than a mouth thing. Why we have to wear one for dressage, even a loose cavesson, I will never know. But also I think we should be allowed to go bitless for dressage. Silly rules, in my opinion!

 

[khalswitz]

You'd have to say there is an element of that - however who is to say that Ingrid and her team dont start their youngsters off in a similar manner? Albeit I personally wouldnt be brave enough to do that on a youngster, so if it were me then yes training under tack would allow for that kind of result as seen in the picture. But going back to bonkers horse, who has had poor training in tack, left to rot for a couple of years, hates humans (well used to), teeth left in a spectacularly bad state....we can definitely say his training has had a negative effect on him rather than positive. Yet when schooling in a headcollar or bitless (well not the orbitless, that was a disaster, but the hackamore is better) he responds very well to the point where I feel more confident and comfortable jumping him in that than I would a normal bridle with bit.

That is not down to training, because his training was terrible - not sure what in this instance I'd put down his good response to the hackamore to. Relief perhaps from the bit?

Very possibly. Or is it simply an alternative form of training with no associations?

I tried to reschooling a horse once who was just horrendous - would panic under saddle, rearing and bolting. A friend of mine who does western riding took him on - and now he is a kick along child's ride. Restarting him with an alternative style of riding suited him to the ground - even though the tack was heavier and the bit much bigger!

When I restarted my exracer, I made sure to use a dressage saddle and a loose ring French link - different to the single joint d-ring and racing saddle he was used to. Some horses associate their snaffle with schooling and gag for instance with jumping - so why not associate two different methods of riding and the associated tack with something less traumatic?

I western horses, bitless horses, traditional English horses all go very differently to each other - the tack goes hand in hand with the training IMO.

 

[Lexi_]

Monty wears a grackle because his crank somehow snapped between being untacked and the bridle being hung up in the tackroom (still no idea what happened) and there was a spare grackle in the tack room so his owner popped that on. He doesn't go any differently in it.

I do keep meaning to try him without one at some point but just haven't got round to it yet.

 

[khalswitz]

I tried Pip in a drop, he told me where to go.

Pippy doesn't NEED a noseband, he gnashes a bit but that's a stress thing rather than a mouth thing. Why we have to wear one for dressage, even a loose cavesson, I will never know. But also I think we should be allowed to go bitless for dressage. Silly rules, in my opinion!

*shudder* I don't!!!!

I've posted before at length about why I don't think BD should ever offer bitless dressage (unless run under a different body, or totally separate classes like the Young Horse classes).

Horses trained bitless go very differently to bitted - different outline, tend to find collected movements much harder as well as the more advanced outline however also tend to be freer in the paces and less tense as a rule. You also have less fine communication with a bitless horse. Therefore, using the same scales of training and levels of testing is inherently unfair to bitless horses, and I think allowing bitless in normal BD classes would eventually lead to changes to the structure of how we assess dressage, which would be to the detriment of bitted horses' training and marks.

Pure bitless dressage does not seen to have enough takers (there have been offers on here before to run pure bitless dressage and no one seemed interested!) to run alone, so that seems to kill it there.

 

[Pigeon]

*shudder* I don't!!!!

I've posted before at length about why I don't think BD should ever offer bitless dressage (unless run under a different body, or totally separate classes like the Young Horse classes).

Horses trained bitless go very differently to bitted - different outline, tend to find collected movements much harder as well as the more advanced outline however also tend to be freer in the paces and less tense as a rule. You also have less fine communication with a bitless horse. Therefore, using the same scales of training and levels of testing is inherently unfair to bitless horses, and I think allowing bitless in normal BD classes would eventually lead to changes to the structure of how we assess dressage, which would be to the detriment of bitted horses' training and marks.

Pure bitless dressage does not seen to have enough takers (there have been offers on here before to run pure bitless dressage and no one seemed interested!) to run alone, so that seems to kill it there.

To an extent I agree, but I think at the lower levels (intro and prelim) it should definitely be permissible. How many horses at that level are working 'through to the hand' anyway? I agree that (non mechanical!!) bitless bridles have plusses and minuses, but I don't think it would be disastrous to let them be used in the lower levels. If the bitless horse goes worse than the bitted horses, mark accordingly!

Also, also!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMo-w69I0WA

Admittedly he was trained with a bit, but I guess this shows that collection doesn't come from the mouth!

 

[alsxx]

I've always been a cavesson only kind of person! Everything I've had has gone just fine in a plain cavesson, done up with the traditional 2 fingers gap!

With my ex-racer, I started him in a cavesson, although it came with a flash. I tried him for a bit with a flash just to see if it made any difference, and it made him worse (pulling forwards) so I didn't continue. I am trying to focus on dressage with him, and eventually my trainer (who I respect enormously) suggested I put him in flash as we would have the occaisonal episodes of downing tools and stressing out, throwing head up and around with mouth WIDE open and tonge lolling around/back/getting it over the bit (all checks done btw, this is just his way of reacting to things, he can get very tense and anticipate and then has a five minute tizz). So I put the flash back on, although reluctantly, and it's still done up with the 2 finger gap lol - he can still open his mouth if he wants to, but not open wide and he can't cross his jaw so much, and actually it has helped because he doesn't fight the contact so much anymore. He still has his moments on occaison, but I may get away with getting rid of it at some point. But then if I get rid of it, I probably won't be able to find a nice bridle that comes without a flash haha!

 

[khalswitz]

To an extent I agree, but I think at the lower levels (intro and prelim) it should definitely be permissible. How many horses at that level are working 'through to the hand' anyway? I agree that (non mechanical!!) bitless bridles have plusses and minuses, but I don't think it would be disastrous to let them be used in the lower levels. If the bitless horse goes worse than the bitted horses, mark accordingly!

Also, also!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMo-w69I0WA

Admittedly he was trained with a bit, but I guess this shows that collection doesn't come from the mouth!

But, at the lower levels should the scales of training still be the same? Should the first step up (to novice) not include different movements and different aims regarding the way of going? Should the contact be marked differently?

Easy to say, let the bitless be marked lower (even though it may be a better test in terms of bitless training that the bitted in terms of bitted, it would still mark lower under current marking aims) - but give it 5 years and suddenly the bitless will be up in arms again saying why is the marking biased against bitless? Then we end up with the start of a rehaul... Keep the classes separate and you don't risk that.

Collection isn't necessarily poorer bitless - but it is further up the levels of training. In pure bitless scales of training, the collected movements would be in higher levels, as proper collection is harder to achieve. Far from impossible, but it would cause a sticking point at medium/adv medium for instance where bitless would suddenly find it harder and biased against them.

I have no problem with bitless as a concept, and think many horses would benefit from the training, but I think allowing bitless in ordinary BD classes would be the start of the death of what we currently know as dressage and the scales of training - it would have to be to afford any sort of equality.

 

[wench]

I have used a flash on a number of occasions. If you have a horse who wears a nose net, a flash is really required to help keep it in place, especially on a windy day. (My poor horse had to put up with the net flapping all over the shop on a windy day; thank goodness he was sensible with stuff like that?)

I also tend to put a flash on for competitions, not done up tightly, but literally just to discourage the horse from opening his/her mouth, and loosing a bit of control with them!

 

[webble]

Just to be slightly different I am going the other way I have attached a scawbrig noseband to my bridle and am working towards being completely bitless

 

[only_me]

Bill wears a grackle - he has never crossed his jaw or gotten strong enough to use one but he appears to find it more comfortable!
He absolutely hates crank nosebands, which was a right pain in trying to find a double with just a normal cavesson!

He will just tolerate a cavesson but definately prefers the grackle, doesn't appear to like flash nosebands either. Again, he tolerates flashes but goes much better in the grackle. A drop noseband is hard to fit on him - Extra full in length from poll to mouth but has quite a narrow nose!! So we stick with a grackle for everything, as its allowed in affiliated dressage here, and just use a standard cavesson on the double.

I don't like crank nosebands personally as think it it uncomfortable for the horse but have no problem with any others, provided not done up so tight that nostrils flaring at rest! People appear to have an aversion to grackles which I don't really understand, they are not that strong and in fact mine has elasticated parts so wouldn't really work in preventing a horse from crossing their jaw anyway!

Horses are meant to open their mouths a little anyway imo- if they are accepting the bit and mouthing it then the lips will be opening slightly with teeth. I'm not a fan of bittless but usually because the people doing it can sometimes be a bit fanatical and Condem people who uses a bit for being cruel! if you want to ride without a bit that's grand, no problem, but don't condem others who don't! And I've ridden bittless loads of times, usually in a head collar, so not adverse to riding without a bit. Plus, we usually hack with no contact on the bit!

 

[MileAMinute]

My boy doesn't need a noseband - he wears a cavesson but it's not done up tightly enough for it to have much effect. However, I do prefer it on for aesthetic reasons, and seeing as it doesn't affect him in any way I don't care if I'm shot down for admitting that I also have to wear it for the low level dressage I do.

His lunging/spare bridle doesn't have a noseband on and sometimes I throw that on at home but I don't notice any difference in his way of going.

I don't like the fact that most bridles come with a flash as standard, and it seems to be a fashion to have your horses mouth strapped up. I've seen a worrying amount of people on FB groups that have their horses in flashes yet are actually unaware of what they do. Grackles also seem to be coming more popular too.

 

[PolarSkye]

This is an interesting and timely thread . . . Z always rode Kal in a grackle because she felt we needed to keep his mouth "still" . . . he went nicely enough in it . . . in the six weeks since N's been riding him, he's gone back to a cavesson (no flash) and is much, much softer and there is no difference in the "consistency" of his head carriage. It could be, of course, that he has simply learned not to be so "gobby" during his two years with Z . . . and that N is able to capitalize on the groundwork . . . or, it could be that he prefers a cavesson to a grackle.

I was thinking about this only this morning watching N ride him in the school.

P

 

[kc100]

I have used a flash on a number of occasions. If you have a horse who wears a nose net, a flash is really required to help keep it in place, especially on a windy day. (My poor horse had to put up with the net flapping all over the shop on a windy day; thank goodness he was sensible with stuff like that?)

I also tend to put a flash on for competitions, not done up tightly, but literally just to discourage the horse from opening his/her mouth, and loosing a bit of control with them!

But I think this is the point.....surely training and correct schooling should prevent the horse from opening up its mouth and/or the rider losing some control purely because they dont have a flash? I appreciate some horses open their mouths and some poke their tongue out, it is their thing - but I dont think I agree with using a flash or other noseband device to discourage the horse from opening its mouth, if the horse wants to do this in the first place then that is an indicator it is evading the contact, not accepting the bridle etc and needs further schooling or an evaluation of the bit being used (or perhaps physio to correct any tension in the poll or neck).

Understand completely for the nose net thing, but generally for competitions and schooling at home I am of the view that you should *ideally* be able to ride completely without a noseband (or at least flash/drop/crank) and not require a bit of leather to prevent your horse evading your aids.