Nosebands and forcing your horses mouth shut....thoughts??

[viola]

great post Viola!

Thank you

 

[viola]

That's a fantastic post!

Thank you!

 

[Hedge_pig]

Fab post Viola.

My horse came to me in a gag, flash and martingale at 5 years old. Whipped the majority off straight away (martingale took a little longer as she was using it to balance on and nearly fell over backwards in shock when I first tried to work without it!), and now she's in a snaffle, with no noseband unless we're out at stressage, when it's done up on the last hole and visibly gaping.

It infuriates me that you can compete at dressage with your horse's mouth strapped shut, mind you there are a lot of things that infuriate me about competitive dressage and that's a whole other topic!

 

[viola]

Thank you. I share your view on dressage tack there!

It's amazing how much stuff and how tight we use on horses.
I do like the appearance of a horse with a noseband though simply due to habit I think, a bridle doesn't seem complete without it to my eye. However, I see no reason for it to be of tight at all.

 

[stencilface]

I have tons of tack on my jumping bridle - cavesson and snaffle, but sheepskin on the noseband, a five point breastplate with martingale and a neck strap.

Mine KNOWS when he jumps without a martingale, as we discovered, and throws his head in the air and almost breaks my nose. With the martingale on he doesn't do anything silly, so that's why we use it.

If I didn't have to, I wouldn't - I'd rather spend less of my life tacking up/untacking/ cleaning tack...

I said additional tack, no necessary tack, no point wearing anything you don't need as you have to clean pointless stuff. You've said you need it, so wear it.

I don't see what's so wrong with a running martingale as if you don't need it it doesn't do anything? I think of it as v. different to a restrictive noseband in that respect. I don't see it as a problem for the horse, just more damn tack cleaning...

My horse would disagree, he hates running martingales. I wore a standing martingale on him for a few months as a youngster as I think he may be part giraffe, but these days I wear a french link snaffle and a nosebandless bridle, I don't even have a tree in my saddle

it has dawned on me that I'm somewhat of a horse hippy, my horse also no longer has shoes, but nevermind - he seems to like it!

 

[Doogal]

I don't use a noseband on my schooling bridle these days - if my horse is opening his mouth excessively it means he is evading and therefore I need to find out why and sort it out. I don't think a closed still jaw is that desirable anyway as there is probably tension. Ideally I want him to chew softly in response to a rein aid so I don't want him wear anything that makes him feel like he shouldn't be moving his jaw.

I have a loose flat hunter cavesson for competitions.

 

[burtie]

Having loose nosebands is a bit of a passion of mine, if I made the rules then everyone should have to compete nosebandless!

I'd be interested in any comments on my horse! This photo is him in his loose caveson, at trot in a competition (at home we don't bother with the noseband often) I find it interesting that his mouth is always slightly open!

 

[stencilface]

I also think it's wrong that you get marked down for having an open mouth don't you? I can see if it's a result of tensions being marked down, but if the horse is otherwise perfect it should be accepted IMHO.

I realised my horse might open his mouth, he was rarely evading unless I was asking too much.

 

[Moya_999]

I wear one .

Do you find its hard to talk wearing one??? bet hubbies would get an idea from this. lol If their wife or G/F talks to much he will put a nose band on her to keep mouth shut lol.

 

[Turks]

My RI disagrees with you Turks. The other week he was watching how my horse reacted to the additional pressure being exerted on his mouth by the martingale attachment, so he took it off, and my horse reacted very positively to it's removal - I only had it on because it was part of the breastplate. If your horse throws it's head up in the air (like khalswitz's does) then by all means use a running martingale, but if not, then why would you?

Thanks JB. I use a running martingale as my youngster has been known to stick his head up in the air if he gets overexcited so its my safety net! I hoped that it wouldn't do anything (other than offer a neck strap) for the times when his head wasn't sky-high. Are you talking about a correctly fitted running martingale? I can't see how it does anything at all if not needed. Am I missing something here?

I'm of the opinion that less is more and certainly aim to reduce but I want to stay in control in the meantime

 

[Turks]

Thanks JB. I use a running martingale as my youngster has been known to stick his head up in the air if he gets overexcited so its my safety net! I hoped that it wouldn't do anything (other than offer a neck strap) for the times when his head wasn't sky-high. Are you talking about a correctly fitted running martingale? I can't see how it does anything at all if not needed. Am I missing something here?

I'm of the opinion that less is more and certainly aim to reduce but I want to stay in control in the meantime

Stencilface - Think the question goes to you too. I always consider a standing to be more restrictive than a running?

 

[stencilface]

Not if fitted correctly IMHO, the pressure goes onto the nose, and doesn't affect the contact in the mouth. This means the horse doesn't get uncomfortable jabs and lose confidence in the contact (horse dependant I would think, many horses don't mind, mine hated it)

I think the duller pressure on the nose, compared to sharp pressure in the mouth (I would imagine!) makes the lesson of not putting the head up easier to learn. They are fine to jump in too (again, fitted correctly!)

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Gray has always had tongue issues. Starting out as a 2yo in training in America. No idea why they had a flash on him, I guess he was vastly different when he was younger to when I galloped him as a 5-7yo.

Carrying on as a 7yo. We run everything in a grackle - the idea being that the horse shouldn't be able to open the mouth wide enough to get the tongue back and choke on it.

As a 9yo in a completely different career with a noseband done up with 2 fingers width to spare.

He always has it out to the right. Never, ever the left. I do wonder why sometimes.

 

[Hedge_pig]

Turks I think what JB is referring to is 'noise' created down the rein via the (running) martingale attachment, in my opinion it can muddle and dull the rein aids. For e.g. in the trot the rings will bounce up and down slightly and transmit downwards pressure, it's just gravity, which then dulls the sensitivity of the mouth to tiny aids. If there's constantly movement there it switches them off. I found when I took my martingale off, I was able to get what I wanted using the tiniest of aids, whereas previously they'd had to be much 'louder'.

Fwiw, I'm also a horse hippy, my horse has no noseband, snaffle, no shoes and a loooong mane and tail, despite not being a native, or Iberian. I think she looks pretty, I don't care what she's 'supposed' to look like .

 

[stencilface]

Fwiw, I'm also a horse hippy, my horse has no noseband, snaffle, no shoes and a loooong mane and tail, despite not being a native, or Iberian. I think she looks pretty, I don't care what she's 'supposed' to look like .

Well honestly, mine is half Iberian at least, although I do keep his mane short, long just looks straggly and awful....

 

[dark rider]

Lovely post Viola. Lots of things to think about.
I have a horse who has never been happy in his mouth. When I get him on the bit he opens his mouth a lot and is marked down for it. I tried strapping his mouth shut very briefly - he refused to go forward at all until I had undone it. 1 - 0 to the horse I think.
I am sure that the reason he opens his mouth is that somewhere something is wrong. I could strap his mouth shut and force him to obey and ignore the fact that I am doing something wrong. But I have decided to leave him alone and just take the penalty points. After all, he does not open his mouth when jumping and his head is in the air!
He is telling me something, so I am listening. PS it is not teeth or back, so I suspect he just finds it very hard to do

 

[dark rider]

Lovely post Viola. Lots of things to think about.
I have a horse who has never been happy in his mouth. When I get him on the bit he opens his mouth a lot and is marked down for it. I tried strapping his mouth shut very briefly - he refused to go forward at all until I had undone it. 1 - 0 to the horse I think.
I am sure that the reason he opens his mouth is that somewhere something is wrong. I could strap his mouth shut and force him to obey and ignore the fact that I am doing something wrong. But I have decided to leave him alone and just take the penalty points. After all, he does not open his mouth when jumping and his head is in the air!
He is telling me something, so I am listening. PS it is not teeth or back, so I suspect he just finds it very hard to do

 

[Kati*89]

I have one in a cavesson, not tight just correctly fitted and its right for him....we did get a few comments in dressage about open mouth, so I tried a flash(I know, I know) anyway he was horrid in it, we lost the contact completely! So we have had to work through it correctly anyway! I am not sure I like the look of without a noseband if I am honest, and anyway I wouldn't be able to compete like that.
Last year I also struggled to find a nice bridle with a cavesson(no crank) for dressage also, I got one from English Bridles, lovely leather, shaped headpiece and padded noseband - really pleased. I have just upgraded to one with patent noseband from Evision for anyone that is looking(they do white padding too) it is a crank, but it won't be used as such.

 

[viola]

Thank you dark rider!

The horse pictured at the top photo of my post belongs to someone who takes clinics with me and it was taken after I removed his flash and loosened his noseband. He trotted with this false bend and gaping mouth even on loose rein. Now, 1.5 years later of consistent in-hand work and genuine schooling for better movement, he can manage decent schooling session without opening his mouth for 50% of the time. His owner has never put the flash back on again and is continuing to work towards his comfort. It's tricky with horses that were forced to shut their mouth for a long time but great to read you are trying too

 

[puli]

I don't really see the point in using nosebands, unless you use a flash. I don't use one with my mare she is the same with one on as she is with out one on so I just thought I may as well take it off. I also think my mare looks better without a noseband

 

[spookypony]

When I first got the Spooky Pony, I bought him a normal cavesson bridle, without flash attachment (was not easy to find one!), mainly because I'd never used anything other than a cavesson or possibly a drop, and didn't see a reason to start. It turned out the noseband was way too long without making extra holes (came too far down his face), because he's pretty much halfway between pony and cob size, so I simply left the noseband off. I have pics of us hunting without a nose band; though he was excited, it's never made any difference for brakes. The only reason I found someone with a hole-punch and started using the nose-band was because I wanted to do dressage tests. Now, I'm too lazy to take it off again. His endurance combination bridle is a head-collar + snaffle headstall, which is what I'm given to understand was the thinking behind a cavesson in the first place (being a halter + bridle combo). At a Vet Gate, the snaffle part clips off, leaving him with the head-collar so that he can go to the vetting. It saves valuable time over taking a bridle off and putting a head-collar on.

 

[Tnavas]

For a start people need to get over the idea of nosebands FORCING the mouth shu.

A correctly fitted noseband allows the horse to relax its jaw which involves holding its teeth apart. It does not force the mouth shut.

Two fingers between horse and straps allow this to happen.

I break all mine with a Fulmer and drop. The reason being I don't want the horse that he can open his mouth wide, drop the bit and learn to evade.

To date all mine have gone on to be ridden in a single jointed Eggbutt and cavesson noseband.

I've found many horses go well without the flash strap. Here in NZ people are keen on Show Hunter where a lower strap is not permitted, they then find that their horse works fine without the flash strap.

 

[Tnavas]

Of note, William Funnell on YouTube says most of us have the cavesson too low. It should sit just (1cm or so) below the site where the curve of the cheek meets the jaw (hope this explains - he just pointed to it!). He said its painful for the horse if you site it elsewhere and that's a very common problem. Having watched him I hoiked mine up a good hole or two

He's right, two fingers below the projecting cheek bone is the correct placing for the Cavesson.

A lot of people have their bit way too high as well. Often because it's too wide and double jointed so it flops down lower in the horses mouth.

Just a small wrinkle is fine with the right width bit.

Running martingale SI hate, they have too much influence on the angle of the bit when they come in to play, downward pressure on the bit changes it's alignment forcing the joints into the roof of the mouth

I teach all mine, and school at home in a Standing for jumping. Only socks the horse on the nose when it throws it's head up. No constant nagging on the rein.

 

[cptrayes]

I would like to see BD ban all mouth closing nosebands, I don't understand why they are allowed. i take advantage of one sometimes if I think the horse is likely to try to evade in the additional stress of competition.

 

[Tnavas]

I would like to see BD ban all mouth closing nosebands, I don't understand why they are allowed. i take advantage of one sometimes if I think the horse is likely to try to evade in the additional stress of competition.

So agree with you. Dressage is supposed to be about quality training, acceptance of the bridle being one of the most important parts, yet fast tracking schooling has put paid to that and the noseband hides the resistances

 

[Twiglet]

When you look at horse's head and neck muscles and realise how tongue muscle eventually connect to front legs' muscles via neck muscles it is worth asking a question: "How much a mouth problem is really a mouth problem and how much it is a body development process"? How much of a mouth issue is our own "let's get there faster" problem? When I school a horse I always try to tighten demands on myself as a rider and trainer first, polish my seat, my hands, my arms before rising standards for the horse's work.

[/QUOTE]

Brilliant post Viola, and not just on the noseband issue!

I'm currently dealing with the after-effects of major jaw issues, and can't believe how intrinsically everything is linked, and how key the jaw/jaw motion and poll are to the whole body. A disjointed chew, combined with muscle issue and pain in the jaw joint, translate to major poll issues - which affect basically the whole body.
Seeing the tightness and soreness points in my gelding caused by the poll being offset and tight, there literally isn't a part of his body that isn't affected - from the obviously stiff neck and inability to build topline, through to tension in the back, the hindlegs being unable to step under so ensuring muscle can't develop in the back end, weakening the back further, letting the abdominals drop....it's such an all encompassing issue.
So to those who strap a tense or moving mouth shut with a flash (and I share the frustration about bridles not being sold without them! and the amount of instructors who've told me to use them...), find out first what that is doing to the rest of the horse....

 

[Art Nouveau]

I've looking for a new share at the moment and am frustrated at how many (all) of them wear a flash. Most have it loose enough to allow some chewing/jaw movement though, would that make it pointless? I don't like to get into a discussion about why their horse is wearing a flash though when it's the first time I've met them. Perhaps I'm just being too british and should go on a crusade...

 

[viola]

When you look at horse's head and neck muscles and realise how tongue muscle eventually connect to front legs' muscles via neck muscles it is worth asking a question: "How much a mouth problem is really a mouth problem and how much it is a body development process"? How much of a mouth issue is our own "let's get there faster" problem? When I school a horse I always try to tighten demands on myself as a rider and trainer first, polish my seat, my hands, my arms before rising standards for the horse's work.

Brilliant post Viola, and not just on the noseband issue!

I'm currently dealing with the after-effects of major jaw issues, and can't believe how intrinsically everything is linked, and how key the jaw/jaw motion and poll are to the whole body. A disjointed chew, combined with muscle issue and pain in the jaw joint, translate to major poll issues - which affect basically the whole body.
Seeing the tightness and soreness points in my gelding caused by the poll being offset and tight, there literally isn't a part of his body that isn't affected - from the obviously stiff neck and inability to build topline, through to tension in the back, the hindlegs being unable to step under so ensuring muscle can't develop in the back end, weakening the back further, letting the abdominals drop....it's such an all encompassing issue.
So to those who strap a tense or moving mouth shut with a flash (and I share the frustration about bridles not being sold without them! and the amount of instructors who've told me to use them...), find out first what that is doing to the rest of the horse....

Thank you Twiglet Good luck with your boy!

 

[viola]

I've looking for a new share at the moment and am frustrated at how many (all) of them wear a flash. Most have it loose enough to allow some chewing/jaw movement though, would that make it pointless? I don't like to get into a discussion about why their horse is wearing a flash though when it's the first time I've met them. Perhaps I'm just being too british and should go on a crusade...

Haha go for it! When I teach at clinics and see tight flashes/draw reins etc I never alter anyone's tack but always ask many,many,many questions until the owner wants to alter the tack themselves

 

[stencilface]

I'm currently dealing with the after-effects of major jaw issues, and can't believe how intrinsically everything is linked, and how key the jaw/jaw motion and poll are to the whole body. A disjointed chew, combined with muscle issue and pain in the jaw joint, translate to major poll issues - which affect basically the whole body.
Seeing the tightness and soreness points in my gelding caused by the poll being offset and tight, there literally isn't a part of his body that isn't affected - from the obviously stiff neck and inability to build topline, through to tension in the back, the hindlegs being unable to step under so ensuring muscle can't develop in the back end, weakening the back further, letting the abdominals drop....it's such an all encompassing issue.
So to those who strap a tense or moving mouth shut with a flash (and I share the frustration about bridles not being sold without them! and the amount of instructors who've told me to use them...), find out first what that is doing to the rest of the horse....

This is interesting. I had my horses wolf teeth removed this year, they were flush against his teeth and didn't obviously cause any problems, no rearing etc, horse is 14. Two EDTs recommended they be removed even though the vet wasn't convinced it would make any difference to his way of going. But then one EDT said if he avoided a certain pressure in his mouth, it would affect his poll, neck, and everything behind that. Now, I'm not a good enough rider to notice I don't think, plus I don't have regular lessons or do any schooling (time poor and horse has had lots of lameness so I'm loathe to do lots of circles, at least til he's sound for a whole year!). But thinking about it, when I ask for some shoulder in and leg yield out hacking, he does seem to actually yield, as opposed to tensing and throwing his head up, which may be due to him being more comfortable in his mouth. Hadn't even though about it!