Not been turned out for 4 weeks...

I was just making the perhaps simplistic point that there is still plenty of land in the UK, so there should be plenty of room for horses. But I think Honey08 has answered the question, certainly when it comes to the exceptionally wet weather we've had in recent months.
But going back to the original post - this 24/7 stabling routine is a relatively new phenomenon and seems to have crept in during the last 10 years. Apart from top class competition and racehorses, it was unheard of and the horse world was a much happier place for it. Some land was sacrificed in the winter and with the right kind of management, it recovered pretty quickly.
 
Um, no. Horses used to be kept in all the time, with perhaps a holiday at grass once a year, back when horses were working animals and not pets, that is. That's still the routine for police horses and the ceremonial cavalry (i.e. working horses).

Look, I'm all for as much turnout as possible if that suits your horse (I have had horses that preferred to be in), but if it is not possible to turn out it is entirely feasible to manage horses in other ways - ALL of which require the horse to have adequate exercise. If people are exercised (ha ha :-) ) about not having the time to do this, then perhaps they should reconsider their ability to own a horse?
 
Do you think a big part of the problem is too many horses at livery yards? So too many horses on site for the acreage available to use?

Down here at lot of the yards follow the 1 acre per horse rule - so they cram in 15 horses into 1 acre paddocks in a 15 acre field and wander why it looks like a mud bath! I reckon my big lad (17hh warmblood) would be comfortable all year round on 3 acres.
 
Cortez said:
I was just talking about horses in general, why should leisure horses have to have substandard care?
Click to expand...

It is only substandard if the yards promise adequate turnout and then do an about turn, it has been a very wet winter but it is not the first time numerous yards have closed the fields in winter when they say they offer all year turnout, a yard near me stated 'we turn out every day as long as it is not raining!' they closed their fields last winter for several months despite it being much drier, they like many places have not really enough land to use for the number of horses now there, I have done the opposite and cut back on numbers which has made a huge difference to how the land copes.

I also think many people want the spring/ summer grass to be able to sustain the horses with no extra forage when many would be far better off having less not more in the summer and have a top up of hay if required, no need to muzzle, strip graze and less risk of laminitis which seems to be far more common than it used to be.
 
People seem to have a very hard time understanding that it is not always possible to use the land; livery yards do not control the weather. If you have been promised every-day turnout, and the turnout area subsequently becomes unusable then you will have to make alternative arrangements, i.e. take some responsibility for exercising your own horse or pay someone to do so.

Perhaps it would be a good move for livery yards to stop promising the impossible - or even better: people could use some common sense and realise that sometimes circumstances change and you have to do different things.

P.S. I was just reading an interesting paper on the rising levels of fructans in grass due to increased CO2 levels, which would go part of the way to explain the rise in laminitis cases. Although I still think that most of the cause is over fed, obese horses and lack of work.
 
My view is that if a yard needs to routinely close their fields in winter then they should provide some kind of alternative- all weather turn out pens being the obvious answer.
Freak wet weather causing temporary closures is manageable without compromising horse welfare, but our standard of care needs to improve so that a horse can still express normal behaviors. I don’t think it is acceptable to just say 'exercise them more'.

Mine live out 24/7 because I have enough acres for them, I look after the land and can feed them on hard standing. It's not that difficult to do.
 
be positive said:
I also think many people want the spring/ summer grass to be able to sustain the horses with no extra forage when many would be far better off having less not more in the summer and have a top up of hay if required, no need to muzzle, strip graze and less risk of laminitis which seems to be far more common than it used to be.
Click to expand...
I think you are onto something there, last yard I was on the liveries were desperate to have the horses out 24/7 in summer (no mucking out) but in order to even contemplate doing that the tiny fields had to be saved so much over winter that the horses were lucky to get an hour out each day and there were weeks when there was no TO at all.

Where I am now we also have smallish fields but they have daily winter turnout and come in during the day in summer so the use is evened out and the grazing seems to cope well with that more moderate approach.
 
chocolategirl said:
I’ve been to his yard twice so I know it gets very wet in winter, but I guarantee his horses will not be standing in their boxes for 23 hours per day ? I’ve heard him say on more than one occasion that the best way to keep horses sound and healthy, is to keep them moving!
Click to expand...

You don't need to hear him say the obvious and of course his horses won't be stood in doing nothing. It kind of helps welfare and management when you have substantial income streams, an indoor, several outdoor arena's, a walker, a lunge pen, plenty of staff, a solarium and endless safe hacking doesn't it.

If he offered livery there won't be ad lib turn out this winter. His groundsman contractor will be working hard to rectify and maintain the pasture land as we speak.
 
It is quite normal here in Germany to close the fields from Oct/Nov until Apr/May. Some have small paddocks, but many do not, or they only have a few and must rotate horses. Most places that have an open stable with field access have no other amenities whatsoever so just attract retired or non-ridden horses.

It's total crap. People are totally ok with thier horse standing in a box nearly 24/7 for half of the year. Some are ridden often, some not. Some have walkers, some don't. Some wonder why their horses have energy or are stiff :rolleyes:

I hate the situation. The best compromise I have found is a box with a small paddock attached with my horse going in the walker each morning and me riding/hacking/or longe in the afternoon or evening. He does something every day, but still. I feel it a bit unfair to him, fortunately I am not here but a few years. The yard is lovely, and they are working on all weather paddocks, but I'm not sure when that will come to fruition. My horse handles it well enough.

What continues to baffle me is that you (general you) KNOW the climate. KNOW the land. The fact that it is wet here each year is NOT A SURPRISE. Yet no one seems capable of setting up any form of drainage in their yard or all weather paddocks. Yes, it cost money, but some of us would certainly pay for such a luxury! But people just can't be bothered, or you cannot tell them they're wrong.

Then again cows suffer the same fate...and pigs...forget about it, they never see the light of day or feel air through an open window!

I just can't get past the mentality of "its ok for animals to stand in boxes all day and night"
 
Why should leisure horses live with inadequate exercise just because they are leisure horses it’s not an acceptable view .
Turnout in a small paddock or a hard standing is not enough exercise they need to out in a decent sized field .
ridden ( or led ) exercise is vital to make up for the shortcomings in turnout the fact the horse is a leisure horse is irrelevant.
 
CanteringCarrot said:
It is quite normal here in Germany to close the fields from Oct/Nov until Apr/May. Some have small paddocks, but many do not, or they only have a few and must rotate horses. Most places that have an open stable with field access have no other amenities whatsoever so just attract retired or non-ridden horses.

It's total crap. People are totally ok with thier horse standing in a box nearly 24/7 for half of the year. Some are ridden often, some not. Some have walkers, some don't. Some wonder why their horses have energy or are stiff :rolleyes:

I hate the situation. The best compromise I have found is a box with a small paddock attached with my horse going in the walker each morning and me riding/hacking/or longe in the afternoon or evening. He does something every day, but still. I feel it a bit unfair to him, fortunately I am not here but a few years. The yard is lovely, and they are working on all weather paddocks, but I'm not sure when that will come to fruition. My horse handles it well enough.

What continues to baffle me is that you (general you) KNOW the climate. KNOW the land. The fact that it is wet here each year is NOT A SURPRISE. Yet no one seems capable of setting up any form of drainage in their yard or all weather paddocks. Yes, it cost money, but some of us would certainly pay for such a luxury! But people just can't be bothered, or you cannot tell them they're wrong.

Then again cows suffer the same fate...and pigs...forget about it, they never see the light of day or feel air through an open window!

I just can't get past the mentality of "its ok for animals to stand in boxes all day and night"
Click to expand...

what sort of drainage do you think helps when the water table is higher that length of the grass ?
 
TheProdigal said:
this 24/7 stabling routine is a relatively new phenomenon and seems to have crept in during the last 10 years. Apart from top class competition and racehorses, it was unheard of and the horse world was a much happier place for it. Some land was sacrificed in the winter and with the right kind of management, it recovered pretty quickly.
Click to expand...

It's not new at all. It was the norm in the Bristol/ Bath area where I was in livery in the 1980s, 3 different yards I knew, because the land was so wet.

.
 
ycbm said:
It's not new at all. It was the norm in the Bristol/ Bath area where I was in livery in the 1980s, 3 different yards I knew, because the land was so wet.

.
Click to expand...

Not new to me either, all the yards I worked on years ago kept the majority in and that was considered normal for all that were in work, that included riding school horses, the ponies were mainly out all year but all the bigger ones and liveries were in, the hunter yards I worked on had them in all winter, possibly a few hours out the day after hunting, what I don't remember was seeing lots of DIY yards, they were mainly grass kept or full liveries and not much inbetween, it is the huge increase in ownership, decline of RS's, the cheap purchase prices of horses that has changed.
 
Goldenstar said:
what sort of drainage do you think helps when the water table is higher that length of the grass ?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the snark?

What I meant was that one should put thought into all weather paddock designs. Such as appropriate grading or using something such as French drains. One can be more strategic about their yard layout and paddocks. I'm not saying it's the answer everywhere for everyone, but I've seen some really well thought out paddock arrangements before. Not just tape strewn up on plastic poles in a low area where mud and water just collect... And people wonder why it's so wet.

At one of the state studs near here there is an outdoor school that has giant tanks/water collection systems. When it rains the water drains through the footing into them. This water can later be used to water the school when it becomes dry (we've had some dry summers). Again, not the answer for all, but I thought it was interesting!
 
CC have you the remotest idea of the cost of the type of work you are suggesting on poor draining land?

.
 
ycbm said:
CC have you the remotest idea of the cost of the type of work you are suggesting on poor draining land?

.
Click to expand...
Yes, I do. I've done it before on my own property before. Before I moved out of country and kept my horses elsewhere. I also know of the cost currently since the yard owner is looking into it.

I'm sorry for mentioning it, I really didn't mean for it to be so offensive. I know it is costly and not everyone can afford this. I get it.
 
CanteringCarrot said:
Yes, I do. I've done it before on my own property before. Before I moved out of country and kept my horses elsewhere. I also know of the cost currently since the yard owner is looking into it.

I'm sorry for mentioning it, I really didn't mean for it to be so offensive. I know it is costly and not everyone can afford this. I get it.
Click to expand...


Could you point me in the right direction to find out about these works CC? We have been discussing with our yard owner what we could do, and had some drainage works done last year but they do not appear to have been sufficient. Thanks!
 
It's definitely trickier to be strategic when all of your land, and the surrounding land is flat, it is all as wet as each other. If you put a drain under an all weather you would just be attempting to drain an awful lot of the surrounding land.
 
Leo Walker said:
£110 a month, and it started from an arable farm. They've managed to fund quite a lot off the back of the livery business if you look at the facilities page, including an enormous indoor school.

http://178.62.125.167/prices-and-services
Click to expand...

It is not really £110 per month, for 6 months a year they have to be in at night and for a 15.2 that adds an extra £86 per month, no turnout until 10 am so if they do services most working owners will have to pay for turning out on top of the livery, which at £2 per day 5 days a week adds another £40 to the livery, total for 6 months a year a more realistic £226 it is not a fortune but it does not give much flexibility.
If you have a non greedy good doer that is very clean in the box you will be paying for hay you cannot use, my old boy uses 2-3 bales of dust free bedding at £7.50 and eats a very modest amount of haylage certainly nowhere near a whole big bale, even the more greedy ones on adlib I cost at £40 per month in hay/ haylage, £20 per month in straw, that is being generous, rounding it up not down, buying it in not making it so that is where the real profit is coming from.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the facilities were built using money available from various subsidies, a local farmer has done very nicely out of EU handouts and has openly said that is how he built up his string of racehorses and the facilities they are trained on.
 
chocolategirl said:
I’ve been to his yard twice so I know it gets very wet in winter, but I guarantee his horses will not be standing in their boxes for 23 hours per day ? I’ve heard him say on more than one occasion that the best way to keep horses sound and healthy, is to keep them moving!
Click to expand...
Oh I’m sure his horses get out of stables 3-4 times a day when it’s too wet for turnout. But my point was he can’t turnout through wettest months either. Wet land is a widespread issue.
 
Cortez said:
Um, no. Horses used to be kept in all the time, with perhaps a holiday at grass once a year, back when horses were working animals and not pets, that is. That's still the routine for police horses and the ceremonial cavalry (i.e. working horses).

Look, I'm all for as much turnout as possible if that suits your horse (I have had horses that preferred to be in), but if it is not possible to turn out it is entirely feasible to manage horses in other ways - ALL of which require the horse to have adequate exercise. If people are exercised (ha ha :) ) about not having the time to do this, then perhaps they should reconsider their ability to own a horse?
Click to expand...

Imo turnout is a basic freedom. Yes it is sometimes unavailable as not safe.

Then lots of exercise and time out of box moving essential. But for lots of horses working doesn’t really REPLACE turnout or stop them wanting space and freedom to graze with friends.

I can in one day when my yard shuts fieldS do lots of varied work- e.g. hand walk / hand graze for 60 minutes , hack (90-120 minute over hills and do some fast work), let him roll on lunge line, and do 30 minutes ground work with poles . He stays sane and ok. But it’s not the same for him as being in a large varied terrain field with 5 friends to groom, mooch and play with and grass to nibble.

My horse’s views on turnout are clear.
 
Horses not being turned out is a big welfare issue. And even if you can ride/lunge them every day this completely misses the point! Turnout is not simply for exercise, it's for their mental health and ability to carry out normal behaviour for their species. They need to be able to move around freely with their head low, roll, graze (or eat hay off the ground if no grass), maybe browse safe hedges/trees, interact with other horses. They need to have the choice to do this (or not do it IF this is their choice...but they need free choice!). This can be done in an all-weather area with hay provided. Being on the lunge or being ridden is not the same as being turned out and may provide exercise but none of the mental health benefits of turnout. Fields can be mended, your horse's mental and emotional health not so much. There's no justification for lack of turnout. "The fields will be trashed/it will cost money to re-seed it/he'll get mud fever out there" might all be true, but can be managed and dealt with in a way depriving horses of their basic needs just can't. If you can't meet your horse's welfare needs you need to face into that and do something about it. I'm sure this post will make lots of people very cross but deep down they know it's true. I could weep at the state of our winter field, it's never looked like this and will cost a lot of time and money to put right in the Spring, but the thought of having a tidy field and horses deprived of the opportunity to exhibit their natural behaviours is not an option.
 
It’s so difficult when the weather has been so bad. I’m lucky in that we have all year grazing that we manage ourselves, but even I, the person who generally has horses out in all weathers, have opted to leave in a few times this winter in an attempt to save the land from being trashed.

I do think that yards who are likely to have to shut fields for weeks at a time do need some all-weather turnout provision. Even an area that the horses can have an hour or two out at one end of the day to stretch their legs and have a run. This, combined with good exercise at the other end of the day, should be enough for most horses to cope with happily for a few weeks, provided the level of work is decent.
 
be positive said:
It is not really £110 per month, for 6 months a year they have to be in at night and for a 15.2 that adds an extra £86 per month, no turnout until 10 am so if they do services most working owners will have to pay for turning out on top of the livery, which at £2 per day 5 days a week adds another £40 to the livery, total for 6 months a year a more realistic £226 it is not a fortune but it does not give much flexibility.
If you have a non greedy good doer that is very clean in the box you will be paying for hay you cannot use, my old boy uses 2-3 bales of dust free bedding at £7.50 and eats a very modest amount of haylage certainly nowhere near a whole big bale, even the more greedy ones on adlib I cost at £40 per month in hay/ haylage, £20 per month in straw, that is being generous, rounding it up not down, buying it in not making it so that is where the real profit is coming from.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the facilities were built using money available from various subsidies, a local farmer has done very nicely out of EU handouts and has openly said that is how he built up his string of racehorses and the facilities they are trained on.
Click to expand...

The livery is £110 a month, being in over night 6 months of the year is normal for every yard I've ever been on. They would make the money on the hay or straw whether the liveries used it or not as it would be sold externally. I go through £60 of hay and straw for my 14.1hh pony so the figures are about right. Its ad lib and there is a serious amount of wastage because of that.

They changed the turnout times a few years back, and now use that to support full time members of staff. 3 famlies make a living from it. 1 partner works on the farm, the other makes their money on the yard. These are astute business people. They dont do this for fun. If it wasnt profitable, they wouldnt do it.

They are just a yard I happened to know had a website. There are probably 100s in that area alone that charge the same price and are making money.
 
I am sure they are making money, the point is that the livery set up would not have made money without another income stream, at least for the first few years, owning the property so no rent to pay, machinery to make the hay/ straw already there and very likely some EU diversification money to put in the infrastructure to allow for real growth in a way most equine only yards cannot so charging £110 per month for basic DIY is not realistic for most places when the competition is not a level playing field.

I don't have an issue with yards making a profit, far from it, but do know that most cannot make a living from DIY alone and that £25 per week is not a realistic price, topping up that £25 by restricting turnout times so staff need to be used by most clients is taking it for many to £35 per week maybe more depending on what they charge for services which is more of a realistic price.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top