Not sure where I now stand.

[Fairynuff]

Once upon a time I was pro hunting. I then had a good think about the whole kit and caboodle and became anti in that I personally couldnt go hunting again with a clear conscience. I still feel this way..BUT! I heard on the news today that the province of Roviga has systematically wiped out the whole fox population in their region. This was carried out using guns, traps ,digging with dogs and probably poison and snaring although that wasnt mentioned. Dont ask me what the point was because I havent got a clue. Rabies isnt on the rampage and fox damage here is pretty minimal. Hunting with hounds here is almost unheard of, I think there may be two packs who actually hunt live foxes-the rest are drag. Now , maybe if there were more packs hunting properly then this wouldnt happen.
Im beginning to think that a total ban in GB would ultimately lead to 100% culling by other means. Im becoming totally confused and not sure what to think. I still wouldnt partake but thats my personal belief. Truely sickened, Mairi. :shocked:

 

[metalmare]

I sometimes become very confused, too. I used to be very pro, believing that it was the most humane way as others are impractical or crueler. I also believed that without culling the fox population would boom leading to starvation. But I have since been told that the population regulates itself if it becomes overcrowded with vixens having less cubs. So now I don't know what to think...

 

[Thistle]

The number of foxes in Scotland has gone down since they banned hunting a few years before the rest of the UK. It is now open season on the fox there all year round. Same happened with Red deer on Exmoor during WW2 when hunting stopped.

 

[Hercules]

And the same is already happenning to the exmoor deer herd today.

Although no official survey has been done on the fox population post ban, there is sufficient evidence to suggest that the fox population is also on the decrease.

No suprising really. I would never have shot a fox pre ban. Since the ban however, I have shot upwards of 30. There are many more like me.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

But I'm afraid Hercules that is irrelevant to the reasons that Hunting was banned. it was banned because it is a sport that involves killing animals and people have a moral objection to that.

The effect on the fox and deer population as a whole was and is completely irrelevant to the banners. They had and have no interest in ecology or conservation whatsoever.

Fox and deer populations could well be adversely affected, however as long as they aren't being chased by dogs and people on horses then the people behind the ban will be happy.

 

[Hercules]

E-J,

Agreed. However the government was warned time and time again that this would happen. They chose to ignore it and the wildlife will suffer. Not, I hasten to add because I am now killing foxes to prove a point, but because I don't want them anywhere near my gamebirds and property and the hunt can no longer legally despatch and disperse them instead of me.

 

[Fairynuff]

So it looks like a case of, the deaths of a few will be the saving of many! Still confused. M.

 

[flying_change]

Sorry to hear about this, and also about your doubts. It's a tough one. I guess I'd look at it this way.....

The unnecessary cull is obviously sickening, and in a way, immoral.

Hunting with hounds in the traditional sense is (to my mind) immoral, and therefore equally bad.

However, banning hunting need not imply that 100% culls will always happen instead. They are both equally bad and unneccessary.

The fact that we're forced to compare the two together is not the fault of the idealism and the morality, it's the fault of the stupid people.

I dont think it's acceptable to say 'I have to accept hunting because otherwise something worse will happen.'

I dont think it's morally acceptable to say 'let me hunt some foxes for fun, and I wont kill them all'. That's just moral blackmail.

To my mind, the perfect solution (and I know it's ideal rather than pragmatic) would be to ban both immoral activities, or control them better.

Sorry this is a tad random, it's coming straight off the top.

RS

 

[AlanEE]

Once upon a time, I was anti-hunting. (Yes, it was a LONG time ago!)

Then, as I learnt more about the natural world, I realized that hunting was probably the most natural and humane way to kill a pest species: certainly far more humane than 'nature's way'. It was no defence of an anti-hunting standpoint to say that just because animals suffered horrendous deaths in the wild and cannot normally be seen by humans, then that was alright. I was about 10 years old.

Add to that, that a hunter has a vested interest in conserving the quarry species which he hunts, and you have a perfectly balanced ecosystem. Wonderful!

 

[wurzel]

"The fact that we're forced to compare the two together is not the fault of the idealism and the morality, it's the fault of the stupid people."


Its called reality baby !!!

You think I am stupid because I am now shooting the deer on my farm (and from what I hear so are most others on eastern Exmoor and the Brendons).

I have to protect my grass. I would be stupid not to.

 

[Clodagh]

I find stag hunting cruel, sorry TF!! But I support it as I believe that the bad luck for the individual is a benefit to the species as a whole.

Ditto hare hunting.

Foxes deserve whatever they get! And hunting hares with lurchers is less cruel than with beagles, IMO, as there is no protracted chase.

As long as people provide environmental conditions that are beneficial, as in grass for red deer or coverts for foxes the species is better off than it would be without it.

 

[wurzel]

"I find stag hunting cruel, sorry TF!! But I support it as I believe that the bad luck for the individual is a benefit to the species as a whole."


Boooo !!!

Hooray !!!!!

 

[severnmiles]

I sometimes become very confused, too. I used to be very pro, believing that it was the most humane way as others are impractical or crueler. I also believed that without culling the fox population would boom leading to starvation. But I have since been told that the population regulates itself if it becomes overcrowded with vixens having less cubs. So now I don't know what to think...

Does it heck! I know of a farm, not even a large one (small compared with english ones) and we saw 8 foxes within two hours (not the same ones :smirk, thats just what we saw. The lady is at her wits end as they've already had 3 of her Christmas geese...and those things were large..even Ernie was scared of them. So that shoots that theory down in flames.

 

[dieseldog]

Same happened with Red deer on Exmoor during WW2 when hunting stopped.

That might have had more to do with war time food shortages and poaching than the lack of hunting

 

[endymion]

Thats sounds really awful! It must have been a hell of a lot of bloodshed because it's incredibly difficult to exterminate foxes!

The way I see things is that banning hunting with hounds does not force the hand of those who had hunted in this manner to kill as many foxes as possible through other means. If they were to do this is would only show their barbarity and discredit their claim to respect wildlife.

I don't think the fox population will ever become endangered in this country. As a result of hunting with hounds foxes are now the most studied of all British mammals and any changes in hunting methods and pressures will be picked up soon enuff.

 

[wurzel]

Might.

But might not.

Facts remain, no hunting, deer population goes down.

Work it out.

The police are starting to throw people in cells even when they attend the station voluntarily.

I have started to shoot all the deer on my land.

 

[wurzel]

"The way I see things is that banning hunting with hounds does not force the hand of those who had hunted in this manner to kill as many foxes as possible through other means."

Why?

No hunting = Out go the snares.

No hunting = Shooting all the deer


"If they were to do this is would only show their barbarity and discredit their claim to respect wildlife."

I don't allow deer and foxes on my land for credit. Its not a zoo !!!

I like to see them but is their numbers are'nt controlled..........

 

[flying_change]

You're killing *all* the deer ?

Are you doing it for no reason ?

 

[Hercules]

Read his posts.

He is doing it because he does not want them eating his grass.

 

[endymion]

No it's the countryside and animals live there funnily enough, quite a lot of them actually!

Where is the logic in killing as many foxes/deer as you can due to the ceasation of hunting with hounds rather than killing as many as would of been killed by the hunt?

 

[Hercules]

I am trying to kill as many foxes as the hunt used to. However, so are about 80 other farmers/landowners in the vicinity.

Strangely enough, we don't all meet up and discuss our tallies and consequently do not know how many each of us has killed.

Before the ban we knew exactly how many were killed because the hunt did it. Very of us allowed foxes to be shot on our land.

Different story now. You were warned of the consequences but thought that you knew best.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

"here is the logic in killing as many foxes/deer as you can due to the ceasation of hunting with hounds rather than killing as many as would of been killed by the hunt? "

The logic is that as I have heard again and again from antis is thast shooting is a better method of killing foxes as it is more efficient. That means more animals die for less effort expended.

Quite why that makes it better beats me. Give me innefficient slaughter methods any time. Innefficient pest control and inefficient farming practices are more wildlife freindly.

I'd personally like to see a hundred people fly fishing in an innefficient manner and, yes enjoying what they do than one guy going out and using the more efficient method of dynamiting the fish. Maybe what he is doing is less immoral, especially if he's a miserable bastard, give me the immoral fishermen any day.

Killing more animals and having less fun doing so isn't more ethical in my view, but it is in RS's. That's twisted morality if ever I saw it.

 

[flying_change]

You misunderstand.

Again.

As far as I read, he's not killing all the deer, and he's not doing it for no reason.

This contrasts with the opening post in which it appears that *all* the animals are being killed and that there is no reason for doing so.

 

[Hercules]

You are muddled.

Again.

Here are the facts:

Pre ban, Tom tolerated deer on his land and I never shot foxes. Post ban, Tom has started killing all the deer on his land. I have started shooting all the foxes on my land.

The reasons for this are that Tom does not want deer eating his grass, I do not want foxes eating my gamebirds.

With many others doing exactly the same, in certain areas it won't be too long until all the foxes and deer are gone.

Not too difficult, is it?

 

[Ereiam_jh]

The difference is between an animal being seen as quarry and a pest. RS thinks an animal being our quarry is morally wrong and should therefore be banned. Once animals stop being quarry they cease to have use to people and people stop tolerating them.

Deer culling is unregulated. There's nothing to stop them being wiped out in certain areas, especially on moors where there are a few very large landowners. This can easily happen over the next few years. The Government are not monitoring the effects of the ban on wild mammal populations because they are completely uninterested in how it effects them.

 

[flying_change]

"Once animals stop being quarry they cease to have use to people "

A good example of the immorality, I think.....

 

[flying_change]

Nope, you've misunderstood the context of the question.

 

[Shoveller]

Furthermore, because antis don't live in the real world they think that we should all be delighted to have foxes all over the place eating all the ground nesting birds, game birds, leverets etc. They think that we should just like looking at them.

Trouble is that in the real world we know that if you kill all the foxes then there will be more game birds, ground nesting birds and leverets (and therefore hares). so you shoot them all.

In areas where some hares were tolerated for hunting and legal coursing, they may now all be shot and totally eliminated to prevent illegal coursing. That isn't going to help the biodiversity action plan to increase hare numbers is it? The game conservancy have a moto:- 'Conservation through wise use'. I can't think of a better way of putting it.

 

[endymion]

All of the animals you mention are threatened much more by modern conventional farming practices than by foxes.

 

[flying_change]

"they may now all be shot and totally eliminated to prevent illegal coursing"

who dreamed that one up ?