Not sure where I now stand.

[Ereiam_jh]

"So answer the q. Why kill more than the hunt would normally take? "

Because shooting, which YOU favour because it is MORE efficient kills MORE animals for LESS effort. This is why YOU think it is a BETTER means of control. It produces MORE death, MORE disease, MORE wounding and MORE suffering.

 

[suestowford]

Wolves, lynx, bear ect all hunted BIG GAME. Why on earth would a pack of wolves chase a puny fox? It would hardly feed a pack would it. Foxes have always been top of their food chain.

I'm sure I recall seeing on some documentary (way back when) about the smaller cats in Africa, saying that their biggest threats came from the bigger cats. The bigger cats predated on the smaller ones, to eat them, not just to prevent the smaller cats taking food. I take this to mean that in general, predators will take whatever they can, and not be too fussy about whether it's another predator or not. Dare say I'm wrong though...

 

[endymion]

hahaha!


T your explanations are ridiculous, u should listen to yourself!

 

[endymion]

Shooting does NOT kill more animals. Stupid people with guns who should know better do.

 

[endymion]

Wolves, bears, lynx would have a hard time catching an adult fox. As we all know wolves run their prey down and then tear it apart, a huge waste of energy when all they get is a fox at the end of it.

All these animals hunted dear. Check it out, I sh*t u not!

 

[Ereiam_jh]

In making laws people should consider the consequences of that law. If the consequences of banning handguns meant that more people dies then it would be a bad move. That's not giving in to criminals it's sensible public policy.

If banning hunting results in more animals suffering then it's bad for animal welfare. Your just indulging your morality at the expense of animals.

The comparision between shooting and hunting in terms of animal welfare is highly relevant if you leave shooting legal and ban hunting. It's also highly relevant to determine whether banning hunting will result in an increase in animals being persecuted by other means.

 

[endymion]

If criminality starts holding the law to ransom then democracy goes out the window and we're all ruled by the minority.

It is far from idealism and it is something we must uphold.

I'm not a big fan of the way the ban was put together, it could of been much better, but it is a ban nevertheless and I will support it and continue to lobby for improvements, something my local Lib Dem MP helps with agreat deal.

I know people who shoot, for fun and for culling means. I have to get on with them because my family live close to them and I dont want to cause bad feeling. I have had many talks about this very issue. Some laugh and say it's unessessary to kill so many foxes through shooting, others get a bit more angry as they feel it's irresponsible and that their sport is getting a bad press. They probably just don't want to put shooting in the public eye in case people start talking of banning that. Look at the way the Hawk Board (society?) distanced itself from the hunt when it started using birds of prey.

People know that pro's will get on the charm offensive or do and say anything to get hunting back.


These tired old arguments have been banded about for decades every time some other cruel sport is banned. Trouble is, no-one buys that BS.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

An effective law would regulate all forms of kiiling animals by the same criteria. That is the law that I would support. So should you if you're against animal cruelty. That's the type of law my Lib Dem MP supports. He's a member of the Middle Way Group.

 

[wurzel]

"T your explanations are ridiculous, u should listen to yourself!"


Bit of a generalisation !!!

Which bit is ridiculous and why?

 

[wurzel]

"People know that pro's will get on the charm offensive or do and say anything to get hunting back.


These tired old arguments have been banded about for decades every time some other cruel sport is banned. Trouble is, no-one buys that BS."


What involvement do you have with Red deer on Exmoor ?

Do you think it is important they survive or not?

The BS is coming from you. You are happy for them to be wiped out as long as your ideological ends are met.

Why do you hate them so much?

 

[endymion]

No one law can regulate ALL forms of animal cruelty.

Could livestock be legislated in the same way as pets?

Middle Way is a lobby group same as LACS and the CA, I dont support any of them. Yes thats right I dont support LACS.

 

[Clodagh]

I am probably going to repeat what other people have said here as gave up reading all the posts!

Modern farming did do damage to a lot of animals, but why then was there always sufficient hare numbers to hold the Anglia Cup? (Is that what its called?!!). I assume its because as those landowners wanted to see the coursing they farmed in such a way as to benefit the hare. Now, what benefits hares also benefits buttlerflies, insects and lots of ground nesting birds.
I wonder (and I don't know the answer) if they are still bothering with all that.
The ELS is a good thing on the whole around here, although its not too prairieish in Essex.

 

[Hercules]

''Middle Way is a lobby group same as LACS and the CA, I dont support any of them. Yes thats right I dont support LACS.''

But you do support and are a member of NELS. That odd group of unwashed misfits who take pleasure from distressing young children, laugh at fatally injured hunt followers, spray hounds with ammonia and regularly commit trespass.

You are a really responsible pillar of the community, aren't you? Odd ball.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

"Could livestock be legislated in the same way as pets? "

From what I understand the Animal Welfare Bill applies to both. It excludes wild animals. Our duty of care is clearly different as, for example it shouldn't be a criminal offence to allow a wild mammal to starve, however laws can be framed to apply to different categories of animals differently.

There's no reason that a law could not be made that applies to all activities that kill wild animals. Such a law would be based on prevention of cruelty. Cruelty being causing unnecesary suffering. What is needed to make such a law work is political will.

 

[endymion]

There's no getting away from the fact that agriculture has created all the ecological inbalance we have now and although I know some farmers are changing their methods many many species are still in a very precarious situation. Hare coursing alone may help locally but is too small too to have any real impact. Personally I find it distasteful to hunt a BAP species in the first place.

I have a problem with the mentality of people who promote nature only if it is in their own personal interests.

 

[endymion]

Ammonia? Fatally injured hunt support?

Do I miss all the fun or something??

 

[wurzel]

Why do you want to wipe out the biggest herd of Exmoor Red Deer in your own personal interest?

 

[endymion]

That law would have to be very ambiguous. I am of the opinion that laws should be as subject specific as possible. It is vital to understand the ecology and biology of an animal before deciding what constitutes cruelty.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

There's no getting away from the fact that agriculture has created all the ecological imbalance

err what about house building, industrialisation, landfill, tree felling, wars, industrial pollution, acid rain, global warming, horticultural imports.

Agriculture has contributed to biodiversity as well as damaging it. Why do you think we have hedges?

 

[Ereiam_jh]

"I have a problem with the mentality of people who promote nature only if it is in their own personal interests. "

I promote self interest as being the best way to safeguard nature.

 

[Fairynuff]

I now know why there was the extermination of the foxes in Roviga-they were preying on released pheasent, hare and co which the hunters import from other regions and from Romania to shoot for fun. Oh dear. Italia fa schiffo.. Mairi

 

[endymion]

Thousands of miles of hedgerows have been removed in the past few decades. 90% of our unimproved grasslands have been lost. How many deciduous woodlands have been converted to useless coniferous plantations? How much damage has spraying organochlorides caused? You have to go back a long way to find a time when agriculture was environmentally friendly.

You forget that even tho I dont eat meant, I too depend on agriculture. The damage it does can be minimised but it certainly cannot be said to increase biodiversity. Any new farming methods that encourage rare species are really just undoing the harm other farm practices have caused before.

And, yes, all those things you mentioned are factors but agriculture is the main culprit. Imagine if commercial development covered the area agriculture does, there wouldn't be a countryside. Monocultures are what cover the countryside and are as equally hostile to many animals as houses.

 

[wurzel]

"You have to go back a long way to find a time when agriculture was environmentally friendly. "

What a load of crap ! My farm is perfectly environmentally friendly.


"Monocultures are what cover the countryside and are as equally hostile to many animals as houses."


What a load of crap !!

I saw 30 red deer tonight in two herds (remember, the ones you want me to feed for free). You don't get many of those in housing estates.

Today i have also seen 3 foxes, 1 badger, 1 stoat and about 60 rabbits.

Also endless birds. In particular a red, green and yellow flash of a green woodpecker. hear them often but don't often see them.

Don't you just love their undulating flight Endy ?


Tell me Endy, as you seem such a farming expert, if you were in my shoes what would you do about the red deer ?

 

[endymion]

So why is this country not covered in forest anymore? Why are our flood meadows and un/semi-improved grasslands disappearing? Why have so many British invertebrates that used to flourish gone or on their way out?

Do you think the countryside would look the same if we stopped farming? No it would regenerate back to it's former glory. How can you possibly say that destruction of a natural habitat for crops ect actually increases biodiversity, thats absolute rubbish. I'm not anti-farming but I recognise the huge impact it has and I recognise my role in it also.

.....and yes, there are deer in housing estates. A herd of red live in Glasgow and I have Roe than often run through my friends back garden in Aberdeen (a council estate). Don't believe me? Call The Deer Society up in Scotland. They also have a herd in Dundee I believe. In London we have Peregrins nesting in buildings, urban foxes, badgers and songbirds. The more robust species can adapt to urban life just as they can adapt to life in a monocultural environment with little suitable habitat. The most vulnerable are those which are habitat specific. Red deer, foxes, badger are in the robust category. Most of our endangered species are invertebrates and small mammals.

Tom, this is one debate you can't win. Don't make me start giving you specific examples, you'll just get embarrased.

 

[wurzel]

"So why is this country not covered in forest anymore? Why are our flood meadows and un/semi-improved grasslands disappearing? Why have so many British invertebrates that used to flourish gone or on their way out?

Do you think the countryside would look the same if we stopped farming? No it would regenerate back to it's former glory. How can you possibly say that destruction of a natural habitat for crops ect actually increases biodiversity, thats absolute rubbish. I'm not anti-farming but I recognise the huge impact it has and I recognise my role in it also. "


I think you said monocultures cover the countryside? Was I wrong ? Another little side step?

But lets look at your questions. Unlike you I won't dodge !

"So why is this country not covered in forest anymore?"

Because it has been removed by our ancestors. starting at about 4500 B.C.

"Why are our flood meadows and un/semi-improved grasslands disappearing?"


I don't believe they are. My semi improved grassland is the same as it was iin my great grandfathers day.

"Why have so many British invertebrates that used to flourish gone or on their way out?"

Global warming ??

"Do you think the countryside would look the same if we stopped farming?"

No. It would slowly revert to wildwood. We would start to import all our food and then suffer severe food shortages.

"How can you possibly say that destruction of a natural habitat for crops ect actually increases biodiversity, thats absolute rubbish. "

I didn't say that. read again




"......and yes, there are deer in housing estates."

Of course there are. Thats why they asked the inhabitants of the roman Road for a submission to the hunting enquiry !!

What do the Exmoor national Park authority know?



"Tom, this is one debate you can't win. Don't make me start giving you specific examples, you'll just get embarrased. "

how did I know someone from London would know more about farming and Exmoor red deer than me ??!!!

I am a long way from being embarrased.

Why not confront my request to know what i should do about the deer that come in off Mansley combe?

Is that specific enough?

 

[endymion]

I may live in London but I dont come from London and I am certainly not afraid to answer any question you put to me.

Semi-improved and unimproved grasslands are failing nationally due to agriculture. It would be great if your land could sustain the entire british fauna but alas it cant, therefore we have to look at the bigger picture.

My analogy to the wildwood was to illustrate the change in the ecosystem. Our ancestors cleared mainly for farming, no?

Global warming cannot explain extinctions that have been occuring over the past few decades and in some cases actually make the british climate kinder for some species at the edge of their range, such as certain butterflies. You are clasping at straws with this one, haha!

I am aware for the need for farming, I have never said otherwise. I just promote a move towards more environmentally friendly methods.



For someone who comes from a small corner of exmoor u seem to know everything about the entire countryside! I was always under the impression that Exmoor was somewhat of a unique environment.......

...and Tom I will think carefully about what i would do in your position re deer. What species did u say, red? How many? What do you farm? What damage do they cause? What hunting pressures exist?

If you want a proper response there are things I need to know.

 

[wurzel]

"Semi-improved and unimproved grasslands are failing nationally due to agriculture."

Are they? I will take your word for it. In what way are they failing?

I am prepared to learn.

"It would be great if your land could sustain the entire british fauna but alas it cant, therefore we have to look at the bigger picture."

Sure. I agree. I wish everyone would farm like me. I just took issue with you saying the british countryside was a mono-culture.

"Our ancestors cleared mainly for farming, no?"

Yes.

"Global warming cannot explain extinctions that have been occuring over the past few decades and in some cases actually make the british climate kinder for some species at the edge of their range, such as certain butterflies. You are clasping at straws with this one, haha!"

Not really. Ha ha!!

I can't see much becoming extinct.

"I am aware for the need for farming, I have never said otherwise. I just promote a move towards more environmentally friendly methods."

Good. Me too.

"For someone who comes from a small corner of exmoor u seem to know everything about the entire countryside! "

Thanks. But I can ensure you I don't.

"I was always under the impression that Exmoor was somewhat of a unique environment......."

In many ways yes, you are right.

"I may live in London but I dont come from London and I am certainly not afraid to answer any question you put to me. "

Interesting.

OK. I will try again.

Put yourself in my shoes (should be easy knowing so much about farming).

What would you do about my deer problem ?

 

[wurzel]

Apologies Endy. I missed this bit. Only 10" monitors on Exmoor


"....and Tom I will think carefully about what i would do in your position re deer."

Thanks.

"What species did u say, red? "

Yes Red. Exmoor is kind of famous for them.


"How many?"

what do you mean, how many?
30 this evening.


"What do you farm?"

Sheep and single suckler beef.


"What damage do they cause?"

Grass eating.


"What hunting pressures exist?"


What does this mean?

Thanks

 

[Ereiam_jh]

"Semi-improved and unimproved grasslands are failing nationally due to agriculture."

And how much grassland do you think covered the mainland Britain before agriculture? Not very much, most of it was covered in woodland. The picture is not as black and white as you make it seem. Agriculture has good and bad effects on the environment.

What's our biggest crop in the UK? Grass.

Some of our most bio-diverse habitats are forest edge ones. We have MORE of such habitat here in the West Country due to farming not less. The biggest providers of this habitat are hedgerows which in the main only exist and continue to exist because of agriculture.

Some of our hedges are thousands of years old. In Cornwall there are field boundaries that are five thousand years old.

Extensive grass based meat and dairy production is the great preserver of our bio-diverse beautiful landscape. Grazing cattle preserve precious habitats. Our woodlands suffer from too little sustainable exploitation not too much. Britain has some achingly beutiful and ecologically rich countryside forged by millenia of agricultural activity.

If you want to preserve semi improved and unimproved grasslands the one thing you need is the right kind of agriculture and if you want that to happen you have to create a situation where it is in people's interest to carry it out.

If I wasn't grazing my culm grassland then it would cease to exist.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

"What damage do they cause?"

My main problem with deer is that they destroy growing trees. So I just chase them with my dogs. I find that for me it is the best way to keep them out of any regenerating woodland I have.

Illegal apparently, but laws are there to be broken.