severnmiles
Well-Known Member
You'll never change farming methods though. And I'm not sure when you last came to Wales, Dartmoor or Exmoor last but its definately the fox and not farming methods that are threatening birds/leverets e.t.c
Not sure where I now stand.
- Thread starter Fairynuff
- Start date
You'll never change farming methods though. And I'm not sure when you last came to Wales, Dartmoor or Exmoor last but its definately the fox and not farming methods that are threatening birds/leverets e.t.c
Ereiam_jh
Well-Known Member
"Once animals stop being quarry they cease to have use to people "
"A good example of the immorality, I think..... "
And so what? You can't expect the environment to be conserved for moral reasons, you have to try and get a situation where it is in people's direct interest to conserve it.
Our countryside is the direct product of hundreds of years of economically and culturally motivated activity. The future of our countryside will be dictated by the same factors.
It's not something that has been produced by a bunch of do gooders following their morality and it won't be conserved by such people either.
"A good example of the immorality, I think..... "
And so what? You can't expect the environment to be conserved for moral reasons, you have to try and get a situation where it is in people's direct interest to conserve it.
Our countryside is the direct product of hundreds of years of economically and culturally motivated activity. The future of our countryside will be dictated by the same factors.
It's not something that has been produced by a bunch of do gooders following their morality and it won't be conserved by such people either.
Hercules
Well-Known Member
It's not dreams, it's reality. Like it or not, such actions are happenning. Two of the large estate owners in my neck of the woods are doing exactly that.
endymion
Well-Known Member
Really?? I think you'll find farming methods ARE changing in many places.
...and ask yourself why hares and certain birds are in declined in the first place.
...and ask yourself why hares and certain birds are in declined in the first place.
Ereiam_jh
Well-Known Member
I believe that large scale hare shoots are organised to combat problems due to illegal hare coursing. It's hard to argue that shooting hares on such a scale is more welfare freindly than allowing far fewer to be killed by hunting with dogs and legal coursing.
Hares are generally shot while running at speed with shotguns, something that is bound to end up with a high wounding rate. They scream in a most alarming manner.
Thank god it's still legal to follow them up and kill them humanely with dogs afterwards.
Hares are generally shot while running at speed with shotguns, something that is bound to end up with a high wounding rate. They scream in a most alarming manner.
Thank god it's still legal to follow them up and kill them humanely with dogs afterwards.
endymion
Well-Known Member
hmmm, isn't there a statistic banded around by pro's that only 1 in 9 hares coursed actaully get caught?? Apparently it's all about the sport and the skill of the dog and not about killing the hare. But then that contradicts what you say doesn't it.....?
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
Elaborate...
Because fox populations grew....? Ok fair do's farming isn't always the most environmentally friendly of businesses...BUT...how many things that make money are? In fact, how many people in this country can honestly say they are evironmentally friendly?
Hercules
Well-Known Member
Your statistics are probably quite near the mark. The point of the discussion is that estate owners do not want illegal coursing and the associated damage that comes with it to take place on their land. The best way to prevent illegal coursing (the police couldn't do it pre ban) is to shoot the hares, thereby denying the coursers their quarry.
The estate owners who once held coursing events no longer have a requirement for hares on their property. Therefore the hares are being shot in huge numbers.
A fine friend to thehare you are.
The estate owners who once held coursing events no longer have a requirement for hares on their property. Therefore the hares are being shot in huge numbers.
A fine friend to thehare you are.
Ereiam_jh
Well-Known Member
"hmmm, isn't there a statistic banded around by pro's that only 1 in 9 hares coursed actaully get caught?? Apparently it's all about the sport and the skill of the dog and not about killing the hare. But then that contradicts what you say doesn't it.....? "
Not at all both coursing and beagling are as you often complain highly 'inefficient' ways to kill hares. They pale in comparision to what you term as better ways to kill hares such as large scale organised hare shoots. These kill more hares, cause more wounding and infinitely more suffering. The use of dogs during these shoots is not coursing, they are used to locate and dispatch the wounded hares.
I'm presuming your not so obsessed with your anti hunting with dogs views to actually suggest it would be better to just let a wounded hare die slowly in the undergrowth rather than sending in a dog to hunt and kill them humanely.
Not at all both coursing and beagling are as you often complain highly 'inefficient' ways to kill hares. They pale in comparision to what you term as better ways to kill hares such as large scale organised hare shoots. These kill more hares, cause more wounding and infinitely more suffering. The use of dogs during these shoots is not coursing, they are used to locate and dispatch the wounded hares.
I'm presuming your not so obsessed with your anti hunting with dogs views to actually suggest it would be better to just let a wounded hare die slowly in the undergrowth rather than sending in a dog to hunt and kill them humanely.
endymion
Well-Known Member
OK. Monoculture, destruction of hedgerows, reduction in the size of field margins, spraying of synthetic chemicals ect ect. All these practices have reduced the populations of an infinite number of birds, invertebrates and small mammals. Lots of farmers are now subsidised to use Integrated Pest Management schemes, to re-build hedgerows, to delay sillage cuts if appropriate (i.e for corn crakes in some ares) ect ect.
But then you know all this don't you, country girl??
But then you know all this don't you, country girl??
endymion
Well-Known Member
So we're all being held to ransom by those who partake in illegal coursing then are we?
endymion
Well-Known Member
I have often said the best method of dispatching a wild mammal is probably by the gun of a skilled marksman with dogs on hand to track any wounded escapees.
I don't buy into the 'let us hunt or we'll kill everything we see' bully tactic.
I don't buy into the 'let us hunt or we'll kill everything we see' bully tactic.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
Yes....problem is though Bendy, in our part of Wales, very few tore the hedgerows out. There are also a good few organic farms around here that cringe when they see other farms spraying. I'm aware that in parts of England they have prairie type 100 acre + fields. Down here you're lucky to find a 20 acre field....
Ereiam_jh
Well-Known Member
We look after a small area of moorland and I have no doubt we have far more ground nesting birds because our neighbour lamps all the foxes and 'black and whites', whatever they are.
endymion
Well-Known Member
But why were the ground nesting birds in your area scarce in the first place?
Think about it, if magpies and foxes declined bird pops then these birds would of been extinct thousands of years ago. Instead they are endangered now. It's not rocket science to work out why.
Think about it, if magpies and foxes declined bird pops then these birds would of been extinct thousands of years ago. Instead they are endangered now. It's not rocket science to work out why.
Ereiam_jh
Well-Known Member
Ground nesting birds exist in balance with their predators habitat and food supply.
Fox populations are limited through predation (natural or artificial) and through limited food supply and habitat.
Foxes exist in balance with their predators.
Hunting IS predation.
We have changed the baance by providing a food source for foxes and limiting their natural predators.
Fox populations are limited through predation (natural or artificial) and through limited food supply and habitat.
Foxes exist in balance with their predators.
Hunting IS predation.
We have changed the baance by providing a food source for foxes and limiting their natural predators.
endymion
Well-Known Member
How can you say that hunting re-addresses the balance of predation re foxes when foxes were never predated upon??
...and if prey exists in balance with predator then how can you claim foxes are the culprit in declining birds ect??
...and if prey exists in balance with predator then how can you claim foxes are the culprit in declining birds ect??
flying_change
Well-Known Member
Hunters seem to be in favour of 'the balance of nature' only when it suits their current argument.
Hercules
Well-Known Member
What will soon become very evident is that the hunting ban has tipped the balance of nature to the detriment of the 'quarry' species. Well Done.
Ereiam_jh
Well-Known Member
Foxes have allways been predated on and still are although less so now we have got rid of the major predators. Sick and injured foxes are still killed by badgers. When there were wolves, bears and lynx then they would have been caught and killed more readilly by them.
In a natural situation an animals death other than by being caught and eaten by another animal would be rare.
Predators that exist in balance with their prey generally get bthye weaker specimens. The balance between predator and prey is a fine one as you point out, otherwise either the predator or prey species would simply die out.
In a natural situation an animals death other than by being caught and eaten by another animal would be rare.
Predators that exist in balance with their prey generally get bthye weaker specimens. The balance between predator and prey is a fine one as you point out, otherwise either the predator or prey species would simply die out.
Ereiam_jh
Well-Known Member
What makes you refer to me as a 'hunter'? Can't you just address the argument. When am I not in favour of the 'balance of nature'?
endymion
Well-Known Member
Quarry of whom? Only people not other animals. If people CHOOSE to intensify their persecution of foxes as retaliation for a hunt ban then that's unfortunate but the result of human wrong and not of nature's.
endymion
Well-Known Member
Wolves, lynx, bear ect all hunted BIG GAME. Why on earth would a pack of wolves chase a puny fox? It would hardly feed a pack would it. Foxes have always been top of their food chain.
Badgers picking off sick, old foxes is still relatively rare, many setts boast co-habiting foxes and badgers which live happily together. Anyway, picking off sick/old/injured animals that would die anyway is not population control.
Badgers picking off sick, old foxes is still relatively rare, many setts boast co-habiting foxes and badgers which live happily together. Anyway, picking off sick/old/injured animals that would die anyway is not population control.
Faithkat
Well-Known Member
Don't take this the wrong way, Mairi, but at last, the penny drops!!!! I've spent many an hour trying to explain to antis that a ban on hunting with hounds will NOT mean that foxes will not now be killed. Like you say, they will be/are being killed all the year round by all sorts of unsavoury traps/snares/poisons/shooting, all of which are far less acceptable than hunting with hounds. At least with hounds, at the end of the day, the fox is either dead or has got away, it isn't injured or maimed to die a horrible slow death somewhere.
endymion
Well-Known Member
Many ARE injured and maimed and die slow deaths (see above).
If someone gave me the choice of deaths, I'd pick the bullet any day.
If someone gave me the choice of deaths, I'd pick the bullet any day.
wurzel
Well-Known Member
"You misunderstand.
Again.
As far as I read, he's not killing all the deer, and he's not doing it for no reason."
Why is this so hard for you to understand.
A Red Deer eats my grass. I shoot it. Maybe not straight away, but I will shoot it.
Understand?
Again.
As far as I read, he's not killing all the deer, and he's not doing it for no reason."
Why is this so hard for you to understand.
A Red Deer eats my grass. I shoot it. Maybe not straight away, but I will shoot it.
Understand?
wurzel
Well-Known Member
"Where is the logic in killing as many foxes/deer as you can due to the ceasation of hunting with hounds rather than killing as many as would of been killed by the hunt?"
Think about it.
I am not out to kill all the deer on purpose.
The hunt used to control the culling.
Who is controlling it now?
Do you think we do it in the pub?
Think about it.
I am not out to kill all the deer on purpose.
The hunt used to control the culling.
Who is controlling it now?
Do you think we do it in the pub?
endymion
Well-Known Member
So answer the q. Why kill more than the hunt would normally take?
wurzel
Well-Known Member
"So answer the q. Why kill more than the hunt would normally take?"
Jesus Christ !!!!!!!!!!!
Is this SO complicated?
Mr Harding lives next door.
Apart from everyday friendship, I don't give a toss how he manages his grass.
He can let the deer eat it or he can shoot the deer. Up to him.
Me? I am going to shoot the deer who eat my grass.
I am not going to hunt them down through every parish on Exmoor, but I am going to shoot them.
How do I know what the hunt would normally take?
They don't just hunt on my farm you muppet !!!
A deer they harboured on my farm might run through 6 parishes before they killed him !!
They keep records not me !!
From now on it is.
1. See deer
2. Try and shoot it.
3. Eat it.
4. end of story.
Understand?
If they die out it is you fault.
I don't run a Zoo.
Try Cricket St Thomas or Longleat.
Jesus Christ !!!!!!!!!!!
Is this SO complicated?
Mr Harding lives next door.
Apart from everyday friendship, I don't give a toss how he manages his grass.
He can let the deer eat it or he can shoot the deer. Up to him.
Me? I am going to shoot the deer who eat my grass.
I am not going to hunt them down through every parish on Exmoor, but I am going to shoot them.
How do I know what the hunt would normally take?
They don't just hunt on my farm you muppet !!!
A deer they harboured on my farm might run through 6 parishes before they killed him !!
They keep records not me !!
From now on it is.
1. See deer
2. Try and shoot it.
3. Eat it.
4. end of story.
Understand?
If they die out it is you fault.
I don't run a Zoo.
Try Cricket St Thomas or Longleat.
Ereiam_jh
Well-Known Member
"Wolves, lynx, bear ect all hunted BIG GAME. Why on earth would a pack of wolves chase a puny fox? It would hardly feed a pack would it. Foxes have always been top of their food chain. " Wolves etc will hunt and eat sick, weak or young foxes.
"Badgers picking off sick, old foxes is still relatively rare, many setts boast co-habiting foxes and badgers which live happily together. Anyway, picking off sick/old/injured animals that would die anyway is not population control. " Weakened animals can live for a long time, they become diseased and spread thoise diseases. Picking off weak animals IS population control because it makes the population stronger. It also releives those animal's suffering. You completely misunderstand the meaning of control and confine it to mean limiting numbers. Control keeps numbers at an acceptable level either increasing or decreasing them, it is also qualitative.
"Badgers picking off sick, old foxes is still relatively rare, many setts boast co-habiting foxes and badgers which live happily together. Anyway, picking off sick/old/injured animals that would die anyway is not population control. " Weakened animals can live for a long time, they become diseased and spread thoise diseases. Picking off weak animals IS population control because it makes the population stronger. It also releives those animal's suffering. You completely misunderstand the meaning of control and confine it to mean limiting numbers. Control keeps numbers at an acceptable level either increasing or decreasing them, it is also qualitative.