Observation from dressage writing

[oldie48]

I wrote for an unaffiliated competition yesterday (prelim-elem) and I just wanted to get out of car and yell, "shorten your reins" to so many of the competitors. There were so many horses with inconsistent contacts because of flapping reins and that led to all sorts of problems. Interestingly, I see so many threads on here about horses being held in an outline tbh I didn't see any of that. Sadly I did see rather too many horses that were not sound and others that were extremely stiff and struggling to make a round shaped circle of the correct size. BD judge was extremely generous in her marking and IMHO the tests would have been marked at least 5-10% lower at an affiliated event.

 

[Bernster]

Ah you’d be shouting that at me all day! I start off ok but reins get longer and longer. Tend to have washing lines reins with Finn particularly, no idea why. And I’ve now got this stupid habit of waggling my hands which is making Bertie wiggle his head side to side so I gotta crack that quickly before it becomes a thing!

 

[PapaverFollis]

It's very easy to think "kind hands" means loose reins I think?

Horse riding is so bliddy complicated! ?

 

[Palindrome]

To be fair you don't see western horses wriggling their heads despite the reins being really slack. I think it also comes from strength and at prelim the horses won't be as strong as a more established horse.
Also perhaps some of the riders with stiff horses thought it would be a way to keep the horse moving/going in a low impact way.
I don't know, just thinking about my own struggles.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

To be fair you don't see western horses wriggling their heads despite the reins being really slack. I think it also comes from strength and at prelim the horses won't be as strong as a more established horse.
Also perhaps some of the riders with stiff horses thought it would be a way to keep the horse moving/going in a low impact way.
I don't know, just thinking about my own struggles.

You can't really compare dressage contact and bitting to western in many instances. A lot of differences and different goals there.

A horse at prelim certainly won't have the same amount of strength as a more established horse. I'm assuming by established you mean higher levels? The horse should still be consistent in the contact though. The prelim horse doesn't have the strength and balance of a more advanced horse, therefore only simple movements/tasks are called for in prelim. The horse must master being consistent in the contact while performing these basic movements in order to advance and in order to place well, IMO.

We get knocked down majorly at the lowest levels here (in Germany) of our contact isn't consistent.

People often mistake long reins for kind reins, but that isn't always right. Most horses would prefer a more consistent contact ad opposed to an inconsistent contact with reins too long for the job.

My horse comes up into the bridle nicely on a shorter rein...actually, a bit shorter than I thought necessary at first. I think people are often told they're too handsy and/or strong in the hand, so they're go to response is to just loosen the reins. Which isn't correct, but possibly the first idea that they come to.

I won't compete a stiff or a lame horse. I won't ride a stiff or a lame horse, quite frankly, but the former can usually be fixed...and I'd do it at home. No need to compete. You can keep a horse going and moving without competing.


I appreciate your views and ideas on the matter, and I'm just offering mine.

 

[oldie48]

To be fair you don't see western horses wriggling their heads despite the reins being really slack. I think it also comes from strength and at prelim the horses won't be as strong as a more established horse.
Also perhaps some of the riders with stiff horses thought it would be a way to keep the horse moving/going in a low impact way.
I don't know, just thinking about my own struggles.

tbh I think you are being kind. I don't know anything about western riding but I do know a little bit about dressage and I've struggled like many others to keep my reins short enough to have a consistent contact for the horse's level of training so I'm no better than others. In the main these were not young horses however there was a 4 year old doing it's first prelim that did a lovely test, a bit wobbly at times, lost it's balance a couple of times but was quickly supported by the rider and was in a secure outline throughout. I just think it's really helpful to watch as many riders as you can, it's great to see good riders but sometimes it's the less experienced riders that show me why certain things are important. eg yesterday was a master class in what happens when you don't use the outside rein and inside leg to make a turn, obviously if you have an inconsistent contact, it's difficult to use the rein for anything and if your horse is a bit stiff, that becomes even more of an issue as the horse will just go out through the shoulder so it wrecks the size and shape of all your movements. I just wish I'd understood more of this when I was first learning to ride!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I just wish I'd understood more of this when I was first learning to ride!

Story of my life ?

 

[TPO]

Western horses are still ridden in a contact. They are started with 2 reins and when in a snaffle (lots of trainers use a different sequence but general 2 hand snaffle, bosal/hackamore then 1 hand curb) the rein length and contact is similar to English.

There is still a contact with "slack" reins due to the angle of the shank on a curb bit and weight of reins (split reins come in different weights and romal reins can have chains and beads on them- not to be cruel or harsh).

Western horses are still trained to take weight onto their quarters, in an outline and aren't on their forehand despite what's often randomly posted on here when discussing English riding.

 

[eahotson]

Thinking about it I think most people realize that at small unaffiliated shows marking is more generous than at higher levels.It is meant to be a welcoming and encouraging thing.Little remarks can be added such as "Appears a little stiff on left rein" or contact could be a bit more consistent.
For most people prelim was as high as they want to go.They just want to put their best togs on, dress their horse up a bit and have a nice day out.A rossette,if achieved is the cherry on the cake.
Minor unsoundness at this level, so long as the horse is comfortable is perhaps not so important.It concerns me more as the levels rise and unsound horses are pressured to do more and more difficult work by people who should know better.

 

[milliepops]

I completely disagree. If we want to hold the top of the sport accountable, it makes no sense whatsoever to overlook or tolerate lameness at the grass roots ?

 

[TPO]

I completely disagree. If we want to hold the top of the sport accountable, it makes no sense whatsoever to overlook or tolerate lameness at the grass roots ?

Yeah this gets me too. I was on a yard where the chief dressage queen's horse was very lame yet always came home with rosettes and no mention of it on test sheets. Although she's far from the only person that I know or have seen competing a lame horse.

I've been there when trainers have tried to tactfully bring it up but people only hear what they want to and trainers need to pay the bills...

Always stumps me why the judges never pick up on it/note it on the sheets/reflect it in the score/stop the test and disqualify them.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Last year at a competition a horse and rider won their class (roughly prelim level equivalent). The horse was noticeably lame and this was a high score. The rider didn't realize how lame her horse was until after the fact and felt really bad about it and was totally baffled by her placement...as were many others. We're still confused about it to this day (rider and I are friendly acquaintances). The horse is now retired due to said lameness because it ended up being something difficult to "fix"

It absolutely should be called out. At any level.


Edit: sorry for the autocorrect typos and part of my post missing from when I thought I made a correction. I need to trial a different keyboard for this phone ?‍ I swear I can form a correct sentence...sometimes.

 

[eahotson]

I completely disagree. If we want to hold the top of the sport accountable, it makes no sense whatsoever to overlook or tolerate lameness at the grass roots ?

That would be OK if we did hold the top of the sport accountable.

 

[Rowreach]

No judge at any level should allow an unsound horse to compete. You don’t write it on the sheet, you have a quiet word and send them home. You may be unpopular but the horse will thank you.

On the other hand, UA dressage is meant for people to have a go, and unless the riding s unsafe or detrimental to the horse, what odds if their reins are too long or their circles are square? It’s meant to be encouraging and if someone is encouraged by a few lenient marks then they’ll probably want to improve anyway.

 

[eahotson]

Last year at a competition a horse and rider won their class (roughly prelim level equivalent). The horse was noticeably lame and this was a high score. The rider didn't realize how lame her horse was until after the fact and felt really bad about it and was totally baffled by her placement...as were many others. We're still confused about it to this day (rider and I are friendly acquaintances). The horse is now retired due to said lameness because it ended up being something difficult to "fix"

It absolutely should be called out.

A bit later on that day a kid got reamed out for riding their pony very slightly behind the vertical at times in a walk/trot class. The judge accused her of rollkur (kid didn't know what that was) and the kid was crying. That could've been handled differently, and the above was somehow allowed? Never mind all of the other (many) people riding btv that weren't beginner kids that day ?

Between that, mistaking a Fell for a Friesian, and a snide comment about Baroque horses, I needed a major cool down from dressage competitions. How this one judge could be so...ridiculous was beyond me. I avoid said judge like the plague.

Things should absolutely be called out at the lower levels, in a direct but tactful way. Just baffles me sometimes. Maybe less tactful with obvious lameness because I have little tolerance for that!

There is a lot of low level unsoundness around and not just at the lower levels.

 

[eahotson]

No judge at any level should allow an unsound horse to compete. You don’t write it on the sheet, you have a quiet word and send them home. You may be unpopular but the horse will thank you.

On the other hand, UA dressage is meant for people to have a go, and unless the riding s unsafe or detrimental to the horse, what odds if their reins are too long or their circles are square? It’s meant to be encouraging and if someone is encouraged by a few lenient marks then they’ll probably want to improve anyway.

And again there are a lot of unsound horses around. Remember Totilas at his last outing when the Vet, under huge pressure, pronounced him "Fit to Compete"? The audience called that one out.

 

[eahotson]

I was not talking about horses that are obviously lame.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Interesting discussion. When vet identified Amber's lamesness in right front on a small circle I looked back at Amber's most recent dressage tests. In one she turned onto the centre line on the right rein to finish and the lameness is evident. Not on bigger circles. I guess if it is just a few steps in a specific place it is hard to sopt but I felt terrible.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

There is a lot of low level unsoundness around and not just at the lower levels.

Yes, I am aware of that.

 

[scats]

One of my biggest faults for many years was making the mistake of constantly ‘rewarding’ the horse by chucking a rein at it. All this did, in reality, was confuse the horse and disrupt the connection.
Once I learnt to stay consistent and have a feel in the rein, my horses responded so much more positively.

 

[oldie48]

I don't think a judge can stop a horse from competing as they are not qualified to assess lameness. They can, however, make a note of what they see, eg some unlevel steps shown. I'm sure they must cover this in their training, also sometimes if the rider is very unbalanced, the horse can appear unsound. Actually, daughter and I started out doing unaffiliated comps and we didn't realise that the marking was generous, I don't think everyone does but most of the riders I see out at unaffiliated comps won't move on to doing BD, some do Quest but I think that marking is more generous too. Anyway, my comment about shortening the reins was not meant to be critical, just an observation that might help someone. I find continental reins really helpful as they stop the reins slipping through my fingers, I've also got markers on my gel reins so I can see immediately if they are too long as sometimes it's only when I start to prepare for a movement that I realise that they are too long.

 

[Palindrome]

Western horses are still ridden in a contact. They are started with 2 reins and when in a snaffle (lots of trainers use a different sequence but general 2 hand snaffle, bosal/hackamore then 1 hand curb) the rein length and contact is similar to English.

There is still a contact with "slack" reins due to the angle of the shank on a curb bit and weight of reins (split reins come in different weights and romal reins can have chains and beads on them- not to be cruel or harsh).

Western horses are still trained to take weight onto their quarters, in an outline and aren't on their forehand despite what's often randomly posted on here when discussing English riding.

View attachment 96392

That's my point, you don't need tight reins to have a contact or a horse who collects, you can collect a horse from the seat. Your photos don't look like the rein length and contact is similar to English (or rather not the German-English way of riding).

 

[teapot]

Lameness, unsoundedness, stiffness and/or serviceably sound? Perhaps some caused by rider etc

There’s a huge difference between actual lameness and a horse that’s a bit stiff but serviceably sound enough to do a unaffiliated prelim imho. I only ask because what’s the alternative for those horses, being a field ornament or not alive at all?

Re rein contact - is that because on the whole a lot of people don’t get taught about contact correctly and what it’s actually meant to feel like?

 

[scats]

I don't think a judge can stop a horse from competing as they are not qualified to assess lameness. They can, however, make a note of what they see, eg some unlevel steps shown. I'm sure they must cover this in their training, also sometimes if the rider is very unbalanced, the horse can appear unsound. Actually, daughter and I started out doing unaffiliated comps and we didn't realise that the marking was generous, I don't think everyone does but most of the riders I see out at unaffiliated comps won't move on to doing BD, some do Quest but I think that marking is more generous too. Anyway, my comment about shortening the reins was not meant to be critical, just an observation that might help someone. I find continental reins really helpful as they stop the reins slipping through my fingers, I've also got markers on my gel reins so I can see immediately if they are too long as sometimes it's only when I start to prepare for a movement that I realise that they are too long.

I’ve written for judges who have got out the car and told competitors at the end of the test that the horse is lame.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Lameness, unsoundedness, stiffness and/or serviceably sound? Perhaps some caused by rider etc

There’s a huge difference between actual lameness and a horse that’s a bit stiff but serviceably sound enough to do a unaffiliated prelim imho. I only ask because what’s the alternative for those horses, being a field ornament or not alive at all?

Re rein contact - is that because on the whole a lot of people don’t get taught about contact correctly and what it’s actually meant to feel like?

They could just not compete. Many people happily ride at all sorts of levels and don't compete. So there'd an alternative.

They can certainly be a field ornament, pts, or for light hacking only. Not every horse needs to go to a competition, or be ridden forever.

So many riders lack feel, and it's a hard thing to teach.

 

[Palindrome]

Y The horse must master being consistent in the contact while performing these basic movements in order to advance and in order to place well, IMO.

We get knocked down majorly at the lowest levels here (in Germany) of our contact isn't consistent.

People often mistake long reins for kind reins, but that isn't always right. Most horses would prefer a more consistent contact ad opposed to an inconsistent contact with reins too long for the job.

My horse comes up into the bridle nicely on a shorter rein...actually, a bit shorter than I thought necessary at first. I think people are often told they're too handsy and/or strong in the hand, so they're go to response is to just loosen the reins. Which isn't correct, but possibly the first idea that they come to.

I won't compete a stiff or a lame horse. I won't ride a stiff or a lame horse, quite frankly, but the former can usually be fixed...and I'd do it at home. No need to compete. You can keep a horse going and moving without competing.


I appreciate your views and ideas on the matter, and I'm just offering mine.

I don't want to go in to cliché but the reputation of German and Dutch riding is that it is heavy handed indeed. There are different ways of riding and usually the horses don't get asked what they prefer.
After watching dressage all last week at a championship, from grass roots to very good amateurs and pro, my take home is that the horses ridden on a strong contact seemed really stressed and like the front end didn't match the back end (although they lifted their legs higher and got better scores) and the horses ridden on a soft contact were more relaxed throughout with a flowing test but perhaps less precision.

 

[Cortez]

I don't think a judge can stop a horse from competing as they are not qualified to assess lameness. They can, however, make a note of what they see, eg some unlevel steps shown. I'm sure they must cover this in their training, also sometimes if the rider is very unbalanced, the horse can appear unsound. Actually, daughter and I started out doing unaffiliated comps and we didn't realise that the marking was generous, I don't think everyone does but most of the riders I see out at unaffiliated comps won't move on to doing BD, some do Quest but I think that marking is more generous too. Anyway, my comment about shortening the reins was not meant to be critical, just an observation that might help someone. I find continental reins really helpful as they stop the reins slipping through my fingers, I've also got markers on my gel reins so I can see immediately if they are too long as sometimes it's only when I start to prepare for a movement that I realise that they are too long.

I have disqualified many horses for lameness (verified by vet at the competition) whilst judging.

 

[milliepops]

I don't want to go in to cliché but the reputation of German and Dutch riding is that it is heavy handed indeed. There are different ways of riding and usually the horses don't get asked what they prefer.
After watching dressage all last week at a championship, from grass roots to very good amateurs and pro, my take home is that the horses ridden on a strong contact seemed really stressed and like the front end didn't match the back end (although they lifted their legs higher and got better scores) and the horses ridden on a soft contact were more relaxed throughout with a flowing test but perhaps less precision.

A consistent contact is not the same as a heavy contact though.

 

[TPO]

That's my point, you don't need tight reins to have a contact or a horse who collects, you can collect a horse from the seat. Your photos don't look like the rein length and contact is similar to English (or rather not the German-English way of riding).

Yeah but my point is (& not to you, just in general because it's become a recent thing on here to bring up the "lack" of contact in western riding) that the horses are trained in a contact and don't start with the long reins most people imagine when they think of western.

The horse is taught to collect with a shorter rein when being started in a snaffle and through training they are strong and supple enough to collect and work correctly with a "long" rein.

But also that the "long" rein is a steady contact because reins are in different weights hanging from a shanked (lever) bit. Not that I have any scientific records but the contact/pressure/weight/feel on a horse mouth in a typical English contact won't differ much from a reins on a shank bit.

Also the "long" reins are when a shank bit is used and that's for trained horses up the ladder. If people were to watch snaffle bit classes, especially with cow work, there isn't the "loose" reins that some people associate with western.

 

[oldie48]

I have disqualified many horses for lameness (verified by vet at the competition) whilst judging.

Did you need the vet to verify though? I thought that was required.