Observation from dressage writing

[Marigold4]

I don't disagree with what you're saying - but I kind of view it as the instructor's responsibility to start from the beginning and try and teach it - and at least be honest and realistic with clients to help them understand what they do not yet know.

Assuming people can afford lessons!

 

[TPO]

Assuming people can afford lessons!

Well if they can afford entries, since this is about people put competing, then there is money available

 

[Marigold4]

Well if they can afford entries, since this is about people put competing, then there is money available

Unaffiliated entries are pretty cheap. Our local riding club charges £14. The last lesson I had was £50 and if we're going to need several to fix our terrible riding, that's hundreds of pounds.

 

[TPO]

Unless you're competing a lame horSe why are you insisting on making things personal?

£14 per class, fuel to venue & most people do two classes. Miss two comps and there's lesson money. There are other ways to learn too beyond actual lessons and plenty that can be done between lessons.

Edited for typo

 

[Marigold4]

Unless you're competing a lame hore why are you insisting on making things personal?

£14 per class, fuel to venue & most people do two classes. Miss two comps and there's lesson money. There are other ways to learn too beyond actual lessons and plenty that can be done between lessons.

I'm not trying to make things personal - just trying to put the other side of the argument. Sorry if I sounded like that.

 

[TPO]

I'm not trying to make things personal - just trying to put the other side of the argument. Sorry if I sounded like that.

Apologies for getting the wrong end of the stick ?

 

[teapot]

You’re all assuming people still have regular lessons. Can’t necessarily blame the coaching quality, if they’re not getting coached.

Then there’s the ‘let’s go back to basics’ approach which a number don’t want or think they’re above doing…

 

[MuddyMonster]

I don't consider myself competitive but pootle on down to dressage for a fun day out every now and then.

Intrestingly, the cost of competing for me doesn't come close to the cost of a lesson so I can understand people wanting to compete for a fun day out and take on some feedback rather than invest in 1-2-1 training, even if (or especially) if money is tight.

I have monthly flatwork lessons but I can't say I feel inclined to have more than that (but I do other training regularly too). I don't think I'm ever going to truly love schooling, I think I'll always love riding out in the countryside more than I do perfecting a 20 metre cire and I just think life's too short to push something that doesn't set my soul alight when horse riding is my hobby - but I still enjoy feeling the progression as a partnership and can appreciate the benefit it has bought.

Interestingly, my trainer has more than once commented they really enjoy teaching me - presumably because I'm happy to be guided by them on what we do to genuinely help my pony rather than worrying about what will get me a qualifying score for something. It's certainly not my riding ability ?

I also feel really lucky with my current trainer as I've had some instructors in the past that are either awful, don't IMHO put the horse first and/or have destroyed what little enjoyment I might have had - so I can understand people being put off lessons and choosing to compete instead.

 

[daydreamer]

It isn't exactly easy to find a decent riding school where you can ride horses that will give you a decent feel. Plus your first lesson will probably be an assessment lesson where you are unlikely to have that breakthrough moment. To be honest I would have said you're fairly unlikely to get it on a second lesson either - by this point you're probably at least £100 down which you could have spent on your own horse.

In an ideal world yes everyone would get to ride decent horses and develop feel but as well as logistical/financial issues some people simply don't realise how far off being competent at the basics they are. Plus some people don't care and just want to have fun! Obviously competing a lame horse is not on but I bet there are many stiff/wobbly/uneducated partnerships out there that generally get along fine.

 

[teapot]

It isn't exactly easy to find a decent riding school where you can ride horses that will give you a decent feel. Plus your first lesson will probably be an assessment lesson where you are unlikely to have that breakthrough moment. To be honest I would have said you're fairly unlikely to get it on a second lesson either - by this point you're probably at least £100 down which you could have spent on your own horse.

In an ideal world yes everyone would get to ride decent horses and develop feel but as well as logistical/financial issues some people simply don't realise how far off being competent at the basics they are. Plus some people don't care and just want to have fun! Obviously competing a lame horse is not on but I bet there are many stiff/wobbly/uneducated partnerships out there that generally get along fine.

More likely closer to £150/£200 down. It’s also getting increasingly harder to do so especially if you’re wanting horses to be schooled to elementary and above.

 

[Leandy]

You may not be surprised to know that the topic of what to do about perceived lameness is often discussed amongst judges. In the UK (and under FEI rules), a judge who considers that a horse in front of them is lame should stop the test and eliminate that competitor under the welfare rule. Given it is a judgement call in most cases, judges are cautious in definitively calling it out as they aren't qualified to diagnose lameness. What they are qualified to judge is the regularity of the horse's paces. If a horse is showing irregularity during the test then the relevant movements should be marked down accordingly and, if it is persistent enough, the paces mark may also be marked down in the collectives. Often what you see is a horse which shows some irregularity and tension on turns, small circles or perhaps on one rein only in one or more paces. It may not show the irregularity throughout the test. This is difficult to call out as lameness sufficient to eliminate but will likely be noted in the comments on the affected movement and perhaps in the collectives also. If, as a competitor, you often get comments about irregularity then the judge is trying to tell you something but they won't usually use the word lame because they aren't qualified to make that judgement. The guidance from judge training says that a judge should eliminate for clear lameness but that you need to be certain about that judgement (and it is a pretty snap decision you need to make to eliminate during the 4 minutes or so of a test). The guidance on certainty is that to justify elimination for lameness you would likely need to have given 4 or below for the test movements up to that point for reason of the irregularity shown. At most competitions there is no vet in attendance to confirm an opinion on an elimination for lameness but there are always riders, owners and trainers who can and do try to dispute it. All a judge can do is say that they saw irregularity. Recently, I judged a horse which I thought was not looking sound but it was showing the irregularity clearly only on one rein and mostly only in trot. There are a number of reasons for a low grade irregularity of which lameness is only one, the others being contact and suppleness issues or perhaps rider imbalance or discomfort due to ill-fitting tack etc. Anyway, I marked down and commented on the movements where I saw the irregularity and also noted it in the collective comments. Had the rider wanted to discuss the sheet with me I would have suggested they might want to get a vet check for any underlying unsoundness. The topic becomes harder again at the higher levels of competition where an elimination during a test could risk formal complaint and possibly litigation. Judges are only human and it needs to be remembered that they are also volunteers. They are there to uphold welfare in the sport but conversations with disappointed and/or angry competitors are never comfortable. Sorry for the essay but I just wanted to explain why it is likely that irregularity will be simply marked down, rather than resulting in elimination. So bystanders may not notice anything. With reference to the OP, if the judge had eliminated a number of the competitors that day I would be hazarding a guess that they would make themselves very unpopular and unlikely to be invited back!

 

[RachelFerd]

More likely closer to £150/£200 down. It’s also getting increasingly harder to do so especially if you’re wanting horses to be schooled to elementary and above.

But today I have just watched a horse I've ridden in a riding school schoolmaster lesson compete (aged 20) in the Junior Europeans and score over 68%.... and he taught me plenty more about 'feel' in my 45 minute £75 lesson than I would have learned in doing endless elementary competitions on my own horse. If more experienced riders were motivated to use riding schools as a top up to the education of riding their own horses, it would help support the riding school industry and keep more riding schools in the position of being able to have a better range of educated horses.

 

[oldie48]

Leandy, thanks for your lengthy post, it is pretty much what the judge said to me and was dealt with appropriately. I'd like to clarify that I was not expecting horses to be eliminated, it was just my observation that I saw a number of horses who appeared to me to have soundness issues. All of my comments were based on my observations.

 

[Leandy]

Leandy, thanks for your lengthy post, it is pretty much what the judge said to me and was dealt with appropriately. I'd like to clarify that I was not expecting horses to be eliminated, it was just my observation that I saw a number of horses who appeared to me to have soundness issues. All of my comments were based on my observations.

No problem. I was just mainly responding to some other posts up thread about lameness being tolerated and uncertainty about what judges should or shouldn't be doing.

 

[teapot]

But today I have just watched a horse I've ridden in a riding school schoolmaster lesson compete (aged 20) in the Junior Europeans and score over 68%.... and he taught me plenty more about 'feel' in my 45 minute £75 lesson than I would have learned in doing endless elementary competitions on my own horse. If more experienced riders were motivated to use riding schools as a top up to the education of riding their own horses, it would help support the riding school industry and keep more riding schools in the position of being able to have a better range of educated horses.

My point was in terms of accessibility, I can think of under ten places in the UK that offer high level schooled horses, maybe only five. That doesn’t make things accessible when it comes to someone potentially travelling across the country for a lesson.

However I’m not disagreeing with you at all with regards to the use of riding schools. Should probably send you my blog posts about my feelings on riding schools, if I haven’t already.

My point was more that the vast majority of people will see that £75 for one lesson as ‘expensive’ when they may get two/three/maybe even four 4-minute tests in front of a judge, which they will deem ‘better value for money’.

It absolutely isn’t, but I’m one of the converted ones (who’s paying far more than £75 a time a lesson), who also spent years trying to get clients to understand why lessons cost what they do, or the fact you can’t put a price on education and training. The latter is something I think has been catastrophically lost in today’s equine industry.

What’s that saying? Those that don’t need training, train, and that do need to train, don’t.

That said, despite not putting a price on education, everyone has their limits when it comes to costs, and at the moment who’s going to potentially spend a tank of fuel to have one 45 minute lesson?

 

[milliepops]

Well, I'd say quite a few people will, I haven't competed for 2 years as can't afford it, because I prioritise throwing tanks of diesel at my instructor ? metaphorical ones, of course. Would probably not be invited back otherwise.

One lesson isn't the same as 4 tests once you've added the cost of transporting your horse to the shows, one show is closer to the cost of one lesson for me. But I agree it does just boil down to priorities.

Accessibility of higher level RS horses is significantly impacted by your location. I think we're well served in Gloucestershire, for everything horsey really. I'm sure it's more difficult in other areas. Unfortunately I guess there's a demand v supply issue.

 

[teapot]

Well, I'd say quite a few people will, I haven't competed for 2 years as can't afford it, because I prioritise throwing tanks of diesel at my instructor ? metaphorical ones, of course. Would probably not be invited back otherwise.

I’m thinking more perhaps the people who the OP was watching over the weekend, not the knowledgable educated posters on here ?

One lesson isn't the same as 4 tests once you've added the cost of transporting your horse to the shows, one show is closer to the cost of one lesson for me. But I agree it does just boil down to priorities.

Oh I know, but how people value those priorities is kinda what I’m getting at. A competition is a day out with the horse, possibly going with friends/yard mates etc. I’m not sure everyone sees lessons in the same way? Especially when it’s a choice between the two on a budget.

Accessibility of higher level RS horses is significantly impacted by your location. I think we're well served in Gloucestershire, for everything horsey really. I'm sure it's more difficult in other areas. Unfortunately I guess there's a demand v supply issue.

Gloucs is equine nirvana I think!

As for supply vs demand, many many factors these days involved. I couldn’t believe it when I my coach told me they’d been struggling to horse an exam the other week, and no it wasn’t a high level one! ?

 

[Carrottom]

On the subject of cost of training versus competing I sometimes used to go to local unaffiliated competition as a cheap way of using a school, not having one at home.
The competition was in the indoor and the warm up a good size outdoor. At the time they charged £10 an hour to hire the indoor. I used to enter one class, warm up and school for half an hour or more then do my test. Warm down and work on anything I wasn't happy with, I think it cost £8.

 

[RachelFerd]

On the subject of cost of training versus competing I sometimes used to go to local unaffiliated competition as a cheap way of using a school, not having one at home.
The competition was in the indoor and the warm up a good size outdoor. At the time they charged £10 an hour to hire the indoor. I used to enter one class, warm up and school for half an hour or more then do my test. Warm down and work on anything I wasn't happy with, I think it cost £8.

Now that's clever economics ??

 

[McFluff]

I have only relatively recently had the opportunity to compete (as in had a suitable horse, transport and funds) and if I had to choose between competition and training, training would win hands down.

However, I do enjoy going out, and as my trainer is based at my yard, going to a competition is a big ask for me and my horse. Neither of us have much competition experience, and we achieve nowhere near the quality of work away as at home. I do go to clinics to get the away experience, but the reality is that competition is more readily available at the times I’m free (weekends). And at a clinic (or in a warm up) we have time to work through a spook or scary bit, but with four minutes in an arena, we need to learn more tools.
A judge could well think I am not yet ready to compete and should be doing more training based on some of my weaker test performances, but the only way I can improve how we perform away from home is to get out there. At home we are capable of nice supple work, in front of the leg and into a contact. At a show, distractions and nerves kick in and we lose softness and show tension.
What I’m trying to say is that what you see in competition does not necessarily mean a person doesn’t train, or that the horse can’t go nicely. They may just be learning ‘how’ to compete.

I do find it sad though that there isn‘t more demand for schoolmaster lessons. I’ve looked into this and there is nothing within a two plus hour radius. I’d love to have schoolmaster lessons, maybe monthly. And would pay £75+ as I can see that is what what it costs to provide.

It isn’t just riding that suffers from people not seeking or wanting to spend money on training. I work in sports and childrens coaching is in huge demand. Adults not so much.

 

[Lois Lame]

You can't really compare dressage contact and bitting to western in many instances. A lot of differences and different goals there.

Yes. I suppose the main difference(?) is that all the western horses (the ones that I see) are ridden in curbs only.

People often mistake long reins for kind reins, but that isn't always right. Most horses would prefer a more consistent contact as opposed to an inconsistent contact with reins too long for the job.

I, in the beginning, thought that, but even after decades of knowing the pitfalls of sloppy, on-off contact, I can't get my head around how to have a consistent contact. I just don't get it. My hands don't get it, my brain doesn't get it. So I let the reins slither away in a consistent manner.

 

[planete]

Only advanced horses are ridden in curbs in western riding. Many are actually started bitless and initial schooling is in a snaffle if bitted.

 

[Peglo]

it costs £5 to enter our dressage league. I go and do minimus and not very well. But it’s a nice stress free outing for me and and horse as we’re both new to riding club things. There has been 4 in my class each time. I think 6 was the biggest class so numbers are low. I am basically there making up numbers so that it goes ahead for people who want to compete.

the only riding school up here closed as the cost of insurance was so high. It’s a shame.

there are instructors here but at £35 for half an hour and same amount on travel to the school I choose dressage league and go to group lessons when instructors come up at a more affordable £15 for an hour. I want to improve my riding but at a pace that’s comfortable and fun for my horse. I’m not sure we’d enjoy a solo intense lesson right now but maybe at some point.

ETA if I’m ever sooth with spare time I would love to have a few lessons on a mechanical horse. I wonder where the furthest north ones at ?

 

[sbloom]

ETA if I’m ever sooth with spare time I would love to have a few lessons on a mechanical horse. I wonder where the furthest north ones at ?

How far north are you? There's at least one in Scotland for example.

 

[Peglo]

How far north are you? There's at least one in Scotland for example.

I’m in orkney so very north.

 

[sbloom]

I’m in orkney so very north.

Yeah, that'll be a stretch (!) but I guess that's true of a lot of horsey stuff.

 

[Peglo]

Yeah we’re really lucky with a lot of facilities we have but living up here we know we have to travel for a lot of stuff. But I think a few lessons on a mechanical horse would be worthwhile. Will have to look into it.

 

[DressageCob]

On the subject of cost of training versus competing I sometimes used to go to local unaffiliated competition as a cheap way of using a school, not having one at home.
The competition was in the indoor and the warm up a good size outdoor. At the time they charged £10 an hour to hire the indoor. I used to enter one class, warm up and school for half an hour or more then do my test. Warm down and work on anything I wasn't happy with, I think it cost £8.

I know a few people who do that at Kelsall. I think it's c£35 for 1 hour hire of the indoor arena, whereas a dressage class unaffiliated is £14 and you get to work in in one indoor and do the test in the other.

 

[Orangehorse]

There is a place close to Beneden in Kent that does schoolmaster lessons.

 

[teapot]

There is a place close to Beneden in Kent that does schoolmaster lessons.

Alex Wyatt's place?