Oldenburg Stallion Licensing 2018- Thoughts? What has happened to Dressage breeding?

Nobody can predict that horses will or won't remain sound, only time will do that. I get quite tired of people expounding how horses that move extravagantly, or that dish, will go lame. Horses that move entirely conservatively, flat, straight, with good and poor leg conformation, etc., go lame too, and extravagant, crooked movers stay sound. There are no absolute rules with horses, annoyingly
 
Cortez said:
Please do remember that these horses are not bred for the average rider. I wouldn't want to ride them, but they are not intended for the leisure rider.
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I agree with you. But the problem with that is that if only a tiny percentage make it as Pro horses, there's no job for most of the rest but pet food.
 
Cortez said:
Nobody can predict that horses will or won't remain sound, only time will do that.
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Well to be fair, I heard a lot of people look at Farouche when she was four and say 'that'll never stay sound'.

And I think it's fair to say that we already know from the number which disappear, never to be heard of again, that the proportion breaking down seems to be pretty high, even if we can't predict which ones it will be.
 
ycbm said:
Well to be fair, I heard a lot of people look at Farouche when she was four and say 'that'll never stay sound'.

And I think it's fair to say that we already know from the number which disappear, never to be heard of again, that the proportion breaking down seems to be pretty high, even if we can't predict which ones it will be.
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Yes, but that has always been the case: it is the nature of horses to be delicate. And if you had offered me Farouche for ninepence I wouldn't have wanted to ride her.
 
Cortez said:
Nobody can predict that horses will or won't remain sound, only time will do that.
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No, but certain factors can increase or decrease likelyhood of remaining sound.

In that video the stallion is showing an unnatural (imo) action behind and lasting throughout training and competing will require careful management. Compared to the other stallions where their movement seemed more in keeping with their frame and weren't being pushed under as much. However I did look at other videos and his canter is more natural looking without the weird sit behind, so hopefully he will last if they can keep that trot back.

Unfortunately Farouche suffered an injury so can't compete, don't know if work or field related injury but you can have an educated guess at most things.
 
only_me said:
No, but certain factors can increase or decrease likelyhood of remaining sound.

In that video the stallion is showing an unnatural (imo) action behind and lasting throughout training and competing will require careful management. Compared to the other stallions where their movement seemed more in keeping with their frame and weren't being pushed under as much. However I did look at other videos and his canter is more natural looking without the weird sit behind, so hopefully he will last if they can keep that trot back.

Unfortunately Farouche suffered an injury so can't compete, don't know if work or field related injury but you can have an educated guess at most things.
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It may look unnatural to you, but it's no more so than the natural action of, say, a very extravagant Spanish horse. What are these "certain factors"? How do you know careful management is required? Most people give their horses careful management, and an awful lot of not-particularly-special horses seem to go wrong in the general run of things. I don't buy this Cassandra-like warning of awful portents: horses are delicate creatures; we do a lot of stressful things with them - look how often racehorses and eventers are off games, and they have what might be considered "normal" movement (not to me, BTW).
 
Cortez said:
It may look unnatural to you, but it's no more so than the natural action of, say, a very extravagant Spanish horse. What are these "certain factors"? How do you know careful management is required? Most people give their horses careful management, and an awful lot of not-particularly-special horses seem to go wrong in the general run of things. I don't buy this Cassandra-like warning of awful portents: horses are delicate creatures; we do a lot of stressful things with them - look how often racehorses and eventers are off games, and they have what might be considered "normal" movement (not to me, BTW).
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Certain factors - conformation, ridability, types & depths of surfaces ridden on, experience of rider, turnout, horse's natural way of going, being pushed through levels of training, down time, hoof quality and quality of shoeing, regular checks etc. there are so many factors than can literally make or break a horse.

Its not a prophecy its an opinion - in my opinion this horse is more likely to go lame as work load is increased to high level unless it is taken very slowly through the levels with proper time given to mature and grow into its movement/learn to cope.
Of course lots of horses go wrong - non-smokers get lung cancer too. But when you smoke 40/day for 20 years ie. at this extreme end of things then your chances of "going lame" are much higher.

I've ridden spanish types before but I haven't seen any of them with hind action like that. Although I will admit I preferred the more traditional movers over the very flamboyant movers of spanish types.

I don't think breeding causes break down either - you can't predict what you will get. I'm sure if you breed that stallion to an "average" mare you will get something with great movement, but breed it to another mare that has similar movement to stallion you risk getting a very extremed action.
 
lots freaks, lots of weird riding training, lots of money money money

light horse breeding uk bred some of the best horses ever h.i.s scheme etc, ie. horses that proved progeny hunting across all types of country were high proportion tb could do any job, but british government lacked foresight in investing in british bred horses , as they seem to in most other areas too,

mincing round an indoor does not show me lot, british bred horses got out there and proved themselves in the real world, i still keep those bloodlines going, don`t need a big stick to fluff them into looking like eagles, because they come out of the box and give the world an eagle eye naturally.
 
tristar said:
lots freaks, lots of weird riding training, lots of money money money

light horse breeding uk bred some of the best horses ever h.i.s scheme etc, ie. horses that proved progeny hunting across all types of country were high proportion tb could do any job, but british government lacked foresight in investing in british bred horses , as they seem to in most other areas too,

mincing round an indoor does not show me lot, british bred horses got out there and proved themselves in the real world, i still keep those bloodlines going, don`t need a big stick to fluff them into looking like eagles, because they come out of the box and give the world an eagle eye naturally.
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Sorry, but those type of horses would not ever have been suitable for international dressage competition. They were bred to be top class hunters, and that's what they were. The horses being bred for today's dressage market are specialists, somewhat extreme and totally not suitable for the leisure market. Like apples and oranges, unfortunately.
 
so interestingly the videos of valverde I saw yesterday were him as a 3yo, he doesn't look in them like he does now to me?
 
ester said:
so interestingly the videos of valverde I saw yesterday were him as a 3yo, he doesn't look in them like he does now to me?
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The one on the facebook link is him as a 4 year old, I googled him and watched his videos of a 3 year old and earlier on this year in march and he looks much nicer than the one on facebook, defo agree that he is nicer then & doesn't appear to have such weird action behind. There seems to be quite a difference between the march 4 year old and the November 4 year old! Much prefer the earlier ones!
 
arguably mincing round an indoor is going to be the job that their offspring will mainly do. So it's the obvious way to demonstrate them IMO. They aren't showing the horses in a dressage test after all, I think it's obvious that they will show off the more extreme boundaries of what each of them is capable of. If you were a dressage breeder, these days, you wouldn't pick a dobbiny looking thing that had nothing about it, you'd want something that looked like it could learn to use itself in an extraordinary way, but with a highly trainable brain, because top level dressage these days is going in an extraordinary direction.

I thought the young Valverde showed the same *type* of movement as the one on FB now, you can see in some of the transitions the way he steps underneath more than some horses and almost sits at the same time, add on another year of growing and it's possible that the extreme movement is not altogether artificially produced. What is nice IMO compared to others is that the angles of the hindlimb/forearm are fairly closely matched, it's not a totilas type spidery front legs/nothing behind movement.

It's down to the people who buy them to use those highly athletic bodies in a positive way. One thing I really liked at the BD convention this year was a very clear understanding that young horses that tended towards this kind of extravagant movement and those with a lot of natural suspension should be encouraged to move in a way that did not stress their bodies, not chasing the auction trot but developing throughness and natural balance.
 
No time to read the replies but my take is on a parallel with what we see in top human sport, that we now push sports bodies so far (witness the virtual torture of child gymnasts in China I recently saw photos of) that it's beyond what they can take. no-one expects a long, uninjured career any more, we can "treat" more injuries so everyone keeps going pretty much as long, but I'd bet that retirement won't be as comfortable for most current athletes as for past ones, and the level of surgical intervention and rehab is insane.

Horses are being bred beyond what mere muscles and bones were meant to do. We are on a doomed path if we keep going. I think it has gone way beyond "super athletic" within the bounds of normal.
 
I think there is definitely a move in some warmblood breeders towards breeding very flashy movers without considering long term soundness.

It is not directly related but I found this research on friesians very interesting:
"Normal Friesians have tendon and ligament stretch properties in between those of dwarfs and normal ponies. It has been suggested that the high-stepping gaits of the Friesian are caused by this increased laxity which affects weight-bearing in the limb joints. Thus, the collagen-linked disorders common to these horses may actually be the factor that produces their showy way of going"
https://ker.com/equinews/health-problems-friesian-horses/

I am not sure if you can extrapolate to other breeds but it makes sense to me that big movers will have more flexible tendons, whether that increases the risk of injury I don't know. There is certainly also a part of good management (like avoiding to start the horse too early, working too strenuously, etc...) and luck (avoiding field or transport injury, etc...) to keeping horses sounds in the long term.

I think we need more stats on what stallions produce what and how long their offspring are competing. This is available for the Selle Français and I think would greatly help breeders to make more informed choices.
 
Palindrome said:
I think there is definitely a move in some warmblood breeders towards breeding very flashy movers without considering long term soundness.

It is not directly related but I found this research on friesians very interesting:
"Normal Friesians have tendon and ligament stretch properties in between those of dwarfs and normal ponies. It has been suggested that the high-stepping gaits of the Friesian are caused by this increased laxity which affects weight-bearing in the limb joints. Thus, the collagen-linked disorders common to these horses may actually be the factor that produces their showy way of going"
https://ker.com/equinews/health-problems-friesian-horses/

I am not sure if you can extrapolate to other breeds but it makes sense to me that big movers will have more flexible tendons, whether that increases the risk of injury I don't know. There is certainly also a part of good management (like avoiding to start the horse too early, working too strenuously, etc...) and luck (avoiding field or transport injury, etc...) to keeping horses sounds in the long term.

I think we need more stats on what stallions produce what and how long their offspring are competing. This is available for the Selle Français and I think would greatly help breeders to make more informed choices.
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If we look at humans who have flexible tendons/ligaments (beyond the norm) it actually leads to a whole host of issues for that individual. In the start it can be advantageous to athletes, such as gymnasts, but in the end tends to lead to an increase in joint injuries etc. Could be the same in horses?

I too would like to see full stats on how these breeds are going, would be very interesting to see!
 
Cortez said:
Sorry, but those type of horses would not ever have been suitable for international dressage competition. They were bred to be top class hunters, and that's what they were. The horses being bred for today's dressage market are specialists, somewhat extreme and totally not suitable for the leisure market. Like apples and oranges, unfortunately.
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Is it sensible to breed these horses that will never be suitable for anything other than a professional? If, as has been noted, very few make the top level and then they are not suitable for an amateur then what use are they?
 
but there are plenty of other horses that are being bred, they just might not be using the top level stallions that are showcased at these events.
It's not like those are the only stallions available? And most amateurs don't want a horse capable of the top scores at GP, the nature of the work is such that you need something fairly sharp and lively, otherwise it won't have the will to put the effort required in. (and I say this as the rider of a stupendously low bred horse that is trying to crack the higher levels ;) )
 
I think what is becoming more common in modern breeding is almost two different strands of dressage breeding. You can breed to produce a flashy foal and a flashy YH class winner, or you can breed from more proven GP lines and make a less obviously glamorous youngster, but a horse that comes into its own with advanced level work.

Its simple economics, you make more money when they look flashy younger.
 
there are "pro's horses" in all disciplines though, aren't there? it's not just a dressage thing. I would generally interpret it as a horse that is either on the rather sharp side, benefits from regular work, likely to be highly competitive and not necessarily of the temperament that most one-horse owners would enjoy spending time around.

Many amateur riders like their horses to be pets as well, forgiving of our inconsistencies, multi discipline jack of all trades, able to have a day or 3 off without killing us, liking a bit of fuss - with a varying degree of competitive edge or drive. They are different animals, very often.

I love my amateur horses, but I wouldn't expect them to have the scope or ability to get me to the olympics, no matter how hard I tried! :oops:
 
my horses go back to Right Flare, h.i.s. supreme champion, tb, he was sire of the first ever` british dressage horse of the year.`



he was a superb breeding stallion who passed on his remarkable movement and really, and i mean really stamped his stock.
when we bought out in dressage comp, some of his progeny we were inundated with offers to buy them, christ, even with me riding! and judges would enquire as to the breeding and take a great interest i them. this was 35 years ago and yes they have changed through the breeding in modern times but make no doubt they were true dressage horses.

in more recent times continental offers have been made for a horse i now ride, from those bloodlines, when he was entire, bit i had him gelded as i wanted to ride him and consider him the end product as it were.mainly for eventing but i see this horse as classical dressage material, he is mainly tb witha very slow rhythm combined with powerhouse strength and a mind to equal any
 
daffy44 said:
I think what is becoming more common in modern breeding is almost two different strands of dressage breeding. You can breed to produce a flashy foal and a flashy YH class winner, or you can breed from more proven GP lines and make a less obviously glamorous youngster, but a horse that comes into its own with advanced level work.

Its simple economics, you make more money when they look flashy younger.
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yes, I think that's it and I have read it from pro, they have the impressive youngsters for ages classes and the ones that are going to be GP horses, those wouldn't be flashy enough to win the age classes but will shine in more advanced work.
 
but that`s the whole point, horses that are trained to be the best they can through developing the paces and whole horse is what dressage should be about, the training improves the develops the movement of horses.

at one time there was a lot of h. i. s .horses were competing at grand prix . certain h.i.s. stallions were noted for producing dressage horses

hunters improvement society, set about offering tb and some other breeds for general use to upgrade the ridden horse population, then it became light horse breeding society, now it is sport horse GB which offers a large choice of breeds and types for breeders to choose from.

but they were not just bred for hunting, they were bred to be `good horses` this is where my 5 generations have come from and live on today, and frankly i would not use a warmblood horse for breeding with perhaps the exception of traks, people have often said to me they consider the tb to be the ultimate dressage horse not the warmblood.a lot irish sport horses are draught cross wb the english horses were mainly tb which i prefer.

Bella Rose springs to mind, what a strange looking creature it is, on youtube i see the comments have been disabled, not a good sign.


i`ve seen so many wb s go wrong, the way they are put together, it does not surprise me,
 
Nevermind the horses... has anyone seen the way top riders ride those horse these days? Probably why they should just remain carriage horses and people should stop trying to ride them. No doubt the best examples are beautiful but I wouldn't ride one. It just doesn't look healthy to ride like that.
 
sbloom said:
Agreed, totally. But it has gone beyond that, and more so with dressage horses. The movement they exhibit is beyond what an animal's skeleton and soft tissue can cope with.
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I keep seeing this sort of comment ^^^ but really, if that were the case there wouldn't be any horses surviving to do GP would there? Whereas there are more horses competing at top level now than ever. They're not all lame, are they? Of course horses go lame; horses go lame in all horse sports, they also go lame standing in the field, that's the nature of the animal and the demands that we place upon it. I bred dressage horses for nearly 20 years, some were flashy movers, some less so and I certainly didn't note any more problems with the bigger movers - does anyone have evidence of this?
 
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