Oldenburg Stallion Licensing 2018- Thoughts? What has happened to Dressage breeding?

shortstuff99

shortstuff99

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Has anyone been watching videos from the Oldenburg stallion licensing 2018? Do other people think that all of these stallions now look like circus horses? I have watched the recent videos from this and I have to say the way breeding of dressage horses has gone is really disappointing. The movement looks unnatural with the front end not matching the back and the movements so huge that these horses surely can't stay sound for long? They also look impossible to be able to train to collect properly and if they even make Grand Prix will they now do this 'warmblood style' piaffe , where it's not really a piaffe? Why are they all doing a 'passagey' trot rather than a proper collected trot? Has breeding just gone to making very flashy young horses but not Grand prix horses? The training also looks very hard on these young horses :(.

What are other people's views?
 
I am by no means a fan of modern dressage, but I think that breeders will produce what the market requires. There is no indication that these types of horses are any more likely to have the problems you describe (other than the deficient piaffe, etc. that is seen more and more frequently); if they didn't stay sound people would not be likely to invest the considerable expense and time that it takes to train one to GP. The "passagey" trot is just....their trot and is part of the reason why they look a lot more advanced than they actually are. I don't think the training is particularly hard for horses that are bred to be this shape and move this way. The fact that it's not my preference just means that I won't be buying one like this.
 
I'm probably (definitely) not the person to answer anything related to dressage breeding, but am curious to watch the videos if you have a link?
 
Cortez said:
I am by no means a fan of modern dressage, but I think that breeders will produce what the market requires. There is no indication that these types of horses are any more likely to have the problems you describe (other than the deficient piaffe, etc. that is seen more and more frequently); if they didn't stay sound people would not be likely to invest the considerable expense and time that it takes to train one to GP. The "passagey" trot is just....their trot and is part of the reason why they look a lot more advanced than they actually are. I don't think the training is particularly hard for horses that are bred to be this shape and move this way. The fact that it's not my preference just means that I won't be buying one like this.
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Thank you for your thoughts :). I guess I was thinking of the soundness as many of these stallions that are shown as young horses are never shown competitively at anywhere near Grand Prix, which makes me wonder why they are being advertised as sires for grand prix horses yet have never done it themselves? For example one of the horses shown has already been retired at 7 years old from competitions....
 
shortstuff99 said:
Thank you for your thoughts :). I guess I was thinking of the soundness as many of these stallions that are shown as young horses are never shown competitively at anywhere near Grand Prix, which makes me wonder why they are being advertised as sires for grand prix horses yet have never done it themselves? For example one of the horses shown has already been retired at 7 years old from competitions....
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The vast majority of horses don't make it to competitive GP dressage (or jumping, racing, etc. for that matter). Bloodlines are bloodlines and genetics are a quantifiable quotient in producing the right sort of horse for the sport. The variables are of course many, the biggest one being the quality of the riding and training.
 
Cortez said:
The vast majority of horses don't make it to competitive GP dressage (or jumping, racing, etc. for that matter). Bloodlines are bloodlines and genetics are a quantifiable quotient in producing the right sort of horse for the sport. The variables are of course many, the biggest one being the quality of the riding and training.
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But then you are hoping that the genetics from an ancestor of the stallion you are using will win out, rather than the fact that the progeny you are using or that is being produced is in fact not of the standard that you want. Which to me may say that the genetic line there has been somewhat compromised. Most of these stallions are being ridden by top riders that produce GP horses so their training *should* be of a good enough standard. So why are they not making the grade?
 
shortstuff99 said:
But then you are hoping that the genetics from an ancestor of the stallion you are using will win out, rather than the fact that the progeny you are using or that is being produced is in fact not of the standard that you want. Which to me may say that the genetic line there has been somewhat compromised. Most of these stallions are being ridden by top riders that produce GP horses so their training *should* be of a good enough standard. So why are they not making the grade?
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No, hope is not the right sentiment, breeding is much more of a science than that, at least it is in the larger studs in Europe . Just as in breeding for racing, or jumping, or movement, or temperament, there are certain defined characteristics that have been proven in recognised lines, or families if you will. That is why, let's say Jazz for example, is a highly sought after line for dressage, and breeders who know their stuff know what crosses well with Jazz, and this knowledge governs the use of breeding pairs. I would not use a son of Jazz just because he's got a notable dad, but I would use him if he also has the characteristics that I want, and this would include the movement, trainability, etc. Not every stallion that has produced winning progeny has been a winner himself, although that is very often the case.

Breeding for racing is a very interesting study, largely because it is very cut and dried and also very much money-orientated and has a much larger sample size than for most other horse sport. Even then, the percentage of horses that ever get on to a racecourse, let alone win, is something like 2% of all TB's foaled in any given year.
 
Cortez said:
No, hope is not the right sentiment, breeding is much more of a science than that, at least it is in the larger studs in Europe . Just as in breeding for racing, or jumping, or movement, or temperament, there are certain defined characteristics that have been proven in recognised lines, or families if you will. That is why, let's say Jazz for example, is a highly sought after line for dressage, and breeders who know their stuff know what crosses well with Jazz, and this knowledge governs the use of breeding pairs. I would not use a son of Jazz just because he's got a notable dad, but I would use him if he also has the characteristics that I want, and this would include the movement, trainability, etc. Not every stallion that has produced winning progeny has been a winner himself, although that is very often the case.

Breeding for racing is a very interesting study, largely because it is very cut and dried and also very much money-orientated and has a much larger sample size than for most other horse sport. Even then, the percentage of horses that ever get on to a racecourse, let alone win, is something like 2% of all TB's foaled in any given year.
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I understand genetics, as I am an evolutionary geneticist, which is why I find a lot of the current dressage breeding illogical as the progeny are not showing the desired characteristics that people are after. It seems to me that they are choosing horses to make larger and larger and larger moving individuals with little thought to what will actually win. If the whole end-game is to make horses with flashy paces then yes they have succeeded, but if the aim is to make GP potential horses that will stay sound then they seem to be rather failing.
 
Not sure I agree with you there, since there are more GP horses out there competing than ever. What desired characteristics are the horses available not showing then? Breeders breed what sells...
 
Cortez said:
Not sure I agree with you there, since there are more GP horses out there competing than ever. What desired characteristics are the horses available not showing then? Breeders breed what sells...
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I do see more GP horses now but I also see a lot more 'not traditionally' bred horses. To say there are so many sires now and so much dedication to dressage breeding it just surprises me that a lot of the current top dressage horses are more show jumping bred or from other happy mistakes. This shows to me that it can't be working as we should see a much larger increase at GP of horses with this breeding but we don't....I think the desired characteristics that aren't being shown are; soundness, longevity and ability for collection.
 
shortstuff99 said:
This article also says some of what I'm thinking https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2016/06/has-dressage-breeding-gone-wrong/
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But it really doesn't say anything very much, other than it's all a bit of a lottery if you are going to think of "pure" dressage lines: there isn't any such thing, because it's about athleticism which is manifested by, well, being athletic (it's up to the rider as to whether that is vertically or horizontal....).

I think the problem is more to do with breeders going for lines that produce spectacular sales horses rather than advanced competition horses, and that goes for jumpers as well as dressage horses.

I used to breed dressage horses (not in the UK) in a fairly serious way, and I bred a few that went GP, I also bred some "failures" that ended up jumping to a high level. I found that the single biggest factor that determined whether a horse made it to the higher levels was the quality of the training/riding.
 
Watched some of the videos and found it interesting. The horse valverde looks like a plane about to take off, or a poorly bred german shepard hind legs lol. Not my cup of tea! Doesn't help I feel like he may fall over if asked to work on a hill lol

I quite like bernay as seemed quite settled in their movement, and blu hors was nice to watch as seemed natural
 
Cortez said:
But it really doesn't say anything very much, other than it's all a bit of a lottery if you are going to think of "pure" dressage lines: there isn't any such thing, because it's about athleticism which is manifested by, well, being athletic (it's up to the rider as to whether that is vertically or horizontal....).

I think the problem is more to do with breeders going for lines that produce spectacular sales horses rather than advanced competition horses, and that goes for jumpers as well as dressage horses.

I used to breed dressage horses (not in the UK) in a fairly serious way, and I bred a few that went GP, I also bred some "failures" that ended up jumping to a high level. I found that the single biggest factor that determined whether a horse made it to the higher levels was the quality of the training/riding.
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That sums up what I've kind of been thinking about modern dressage breeding, in that they're not breeding for competition, they are breeding for a fabulous sales horse that actually isn't much use at all.
 
only_me said:
Watched some of the videos and found it interesting. The horse valverde looks like a plane about to take off, or a poorly bred german shepard hind legs lol. Not my cup of tea! Doesn't help I feel like he may fall over if asked to work on a hill lol

I quite like bernay as seemed quite settled in their movement, and blu hors was nice to watch as seemed natural
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There are some nice looking horses there but also some very freaky looking ones being hailed as amazing!
 
shortstuff99 said:
There are some nice looking horses there but also some very freaky looking ones being hailed as amazing!
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Valverde just looked odd to me. Not something I would want to ride!

Not a nice atmosphere really either, very bright lights and festival type, felt sorry for the foal/yearlings with someone waving a big stick ahead of them?!
 
I do think when you see these young stallions in that sort of goldfish bowl environment you need to factor in the tension they feel .
Its one of the factors that makes them look odd .
 
I get the argument that not many horses bred for any specific job reach the top at that job, but anecdotally, these horses are breaking down very early and unfit to do any job at all. And that's just physically, many of them, also anecdotally, are also challenged behaviourally and unfit for the lower level amateur market if they don't make it with a Pro.

My own experience of four GP bred warmbloods is one definite kissing spines, one congenital wobbler, one probable kissing spines (not xrayed), two behaviourally very challenging. And a friend with history of five well bred warmbloods, all very low mileage, is one PTS at 6 with stifle OCD, one retired at twelve with hock arthritis, one retired at nine with kissing spines and pastern arthritis, two sold with vetting fine.

I would really like to see the research of how many of these freaky movers survive at all, never mind to GP level.

I never intend to own another myself.
 
Did not like Valverde, only 4yo too. Will it even see 6yo as a sound horse?

Seems we don't learn from the likes of Don Davidoff or Sensation.

However, some of these horses are spectacular and will go on to do great things.
 
nikkimariet said:
Did not like Valverde, only 4yo too. Will it even see 6yo as a sound horse?

Seems we don't learn from the likes of Don Davidoff or Sensation.

However, some of these horses are spectacular and will go on to do great things.
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Yes, I am not saying all of these horses are awful but a large amount of them look unnatural and I am curious how many we will see at any kind of competitive level.
 
Not a fan of Valverde; his joints, especially his hips seem excessively loose? Like not flexible, just wobbly?*

Much preferred Imposantos!*

Does anyone know why they are waving those things in front of them?

*Very inexpert of posh horses hahaha
 
only_me said:
Watched some of the videos and found it interesting. The horse valverde looks like a plane about to take off, or a poorly bred german shepard hind legs lol. Not my cup of tea! Doesn't help I feel like he may fall over if asked to work on a hill lol

I quite like bernay as seemed quite settled in their movement, and blu hors was nice to watch as seemed natural
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You're right about the German shepherd legs! I played the video because I was curious about your comment and I see it too. That's kind of strange. I wonder how/ why the horse moves that way.
 
DiNozzo said:
Not a fan of Valverde; his joints, especially his hips seem excessively loose? Like not flexible, just wobbly?*

Much preferred Imposantos!*

Does anyone know why they are waving those things in front of them?

*Very inexpert of posh horses hahaha
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I liked Imposantos too. Although I'm also inexpert of posh horses.
 
Please do remember that these horses are not bred for the average rider. I wouldn't want to ride them, but they are not intended for the leisure rider.
 
Cortez said:
Please do remember that these horses are not bred for the average rider. I wouldn't want to ride them, but they are not intended for the leisure rider.
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just because I am an amateur/leisure rider doesn't mean I can appreciate a well bred and/or good horse. A horse that moves well is not hard to see and I know what is desirable in types of competition horse and what is not as desirable. It's not rocket science to see horses, it is a lot harder to breed what you want obviously.

Veverde would not cope as a leisure horse, however I can't see him being a top level horse either - because I don't think he will remain sound and is going to require careful management imo. His hind movement is questionable to me and watching it again his stifle looks a bit lax on the near side - maybe I'm over looking but to me his movement is not "natural". He has to be ridden high as other wise would get socked in mouth with his own knee!

Some of other horses looked much more comfortable in their elevated way of going eg. bernay and weren't being over asked. Bernay showed an extension in pace at the end of the video and appeared to move up a gear seamlessly which was nice to see imo and I can see that horse going to top level.
 
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