Opinions on head rubbing (horses on people)

Seahorse said:
I appear to be in a minority here but I let my horse do it!
He always has an itchy head after he's been ridden, but he knows I have to take his bridle off first then I let him have a lovely rub on me :) then when he's finished he stands and I put his headcollar on.

I feel it's his reward for being such a good boy. He is not a bargy horse at all, he doesn't knock me over and it's the only time he does it.

I certainly don't think he does it to get one up on me at all! He's a very well mannered horse.
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Yep I'm also in the minority, mine all have a good rub, but never get pushy or knock me over.
 
Show Girl said:
Yep I'm also in the minority, mine all have a good rub, but never get pushy or knock me over.
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As you and others (including myself) can attest to, it is perfectly possible to train a horse to rub 'politely' - only when permitted and not too forcefully. Nevertheless, it is still something I would discourage in general - especially with horses that come into contact with and are handled by other people - because there is always a risk that someone might get hurt and/or punish the horse unfairly for an action that was previously allowed.
 
People are inconsistent. I think that if you have some rules about personal space and not barging established, there are all sorts of things you can do. I put up my hands, step towards my horse and he has a rub. However, because of the ground rules we understand, he doesn't also step towards me or bash me with his head.
For example, how often do we see people smacking or yelling at a horse because it's moving towards and pushing on them when they are holding a rope or the reins, and yet when the horse is tied up on the yard and the owner's having a natter the same movement towards gets ignored? Or the horse comes up to them in the field and nudges them, and they turn round and cuddle it? I cuddle all of mine, and give them ecstatic scratches, but I move to them and offer that, I don't turn round and fuss a horse that has "come up for cuddles" and is looming over me. I have one who is rather pushy, and she will come right up and put her head in my back (not shoving, just making contact), normally when I'm poo picking. I always step her back when she does this, and I don't always then fuss her, but I do sometimes. There's nothing pushy or uncomfortable in what she's doing so I think it's fine.
These horses aren't being "dominant" they are just doing what they've been taught is OK, and what horses do.
 
I agree, but if I don't want my horse to rub on me then he doesn't! I just say NO and put his headcollar on.
Her certainly isn't rough with it anyway. I quite like him doing it as he's not normally an affectionate horse at all!

In fact the people that have him on loan are always saying what a lovely well mannered horse he is :)
 
After a ride Charisma does like to have a rub but I don't let her do it on me, I am not a tree (!) but instead I'll give her a scratch and a rub on her ears.
 
I don't have a problem with it per se. I once shared a very un-cuddly horse and it was several months before he asked to be scratched, at which point I was flattered.

As long as it is something they ask for rather than 'take' or, even better, something you 'offer' then I don't view it as disrespectful. Mutual grooming happens with herd leaders. It happens on their terms but it definitely happens.
 
Tan is a bit cheeky with head rubbing... Especially after riding. She gets an itchy head after riding (understandable) and the first thing she does after I get off is rub her head on her leg. When I lead her back to the stable she will sometimes try and rub on me. She has almost knocked me over in the past (she is 16.3hh) so I do not allow it. She knows it is wrong but sometimes gets a bit cheeky and needs reminding (I think she finds it funny TBH)! Usually pushing her back or away from me does the trick or a sharp "Oi".

However, after riding inbetween having her bridle off and headcollar on I will scratch her face/ ears/ eyes with my hands.

But I never let her rub her head on me, if I did it would lead to her trying it on more often and probably sending me flying!
 
kirstyl said:
As far me being senior partner in me and my horse's relationship, I am not talking about 'dominance' or indeed just the matter of the horse wanting to rub on me.
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Ah, dominance, my favorite subject! :D ;) Sadly for me it seems many take dominance to mean bossy, domineering, forceful and rough as well as I'm IT!

To me dominance in the above sense doesn't come into most of our 'training' of our horses which is what we are doing 90% of the time I estimate.
Many seem to equate dominance with aggression only but imo it can come out of fear and insecurity or rather attempts to dominate (as above) can and often do especially where humans are concerned. A classic example is the human who hits their horse when it bucks... the human is trying to get the horse to submit totally to it's will by punishment in the form of pain.
You can substitude knock human hard with head in a rub for buck seeing as that is the theme of this thread.
So why does the human do this? I suggest that some do it out of fear, shock, anger, no plan for this behaviour etc. I doubt many do it in a considered and 'correct' in behavioural terms way as punishment to reduce a behaviour.

Imo the problem with this approach is that there is no attempt to understand why the horse bucked which is how imo we should aproach this stuff ie. with a question.

Anyway, I'm waffling and of course it's never as simple as the example I've given! Just wanted to set fburton off talking again.:D
 
Mike007 said:
Since every horse I have had has felt the need to do this in some way and clearly from all the posts ,it is not abnormal. HOW CAN IT BE RUDE, the horse is behaving naturaly, curb it a bit if you are frightend,but dont blame the horse.How can a natural equine reaction be rude or disrespectfull.No wonder so many horses have hang ups and problems.
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I totally agree with this. We each need to study our horses a little more and understand their language - I would certainly not smack a horse for doing it. I have a 6 year old stallion and he lives on his own in his paddock (due to being over playful - which is NATURAL) he likes a rub as he has no-one to rub on or interact with (which makes me feel sad at times) and the other night he was not feeling too good and I understood his need for reassurance with the way he was rubbing (gently) on me - having left his tea to seek me out in the dark when I was re-arranging fencing. I got him in and got the vet out - because I know my horse well - he is on antibiotics now, he had a high temp, high resp rate and hearbeat, bloods taken and it is ongoing........ but to discourage him to interact with me I wouldn't know him so well and wouldn't be able to act quickly when something was wrong.
 
Mike007 said:
Since every horse I have had has felt the need to do this in some way and clearly from all the posts ,it is not abnormal. HOW CAN IT BE RUDE, the horse is behaving naturaly, curb it a bit if you are frightend,but dont blame the horse.How can a natural equine reaction be rude or disrespectfull.No wonder so many horses have hang ups and problems.
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SNAP! I have no problem with it.... I've worked them hard, they have a sweaty head, I jump off and if they go to rub I give them my back as a post!... Never had a problem with a horse who then thinks he is "leader"!?!?!?
 
fburton said:
You'll have to say something I disagree with first, amandap! :D
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Darn it!:D

Seahorse said:
Yay :)

Although I think it depends on the horse, I suppose some horses would take the mick...
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I think horses only do/behave how they've been taught or as they wish when there are no rules, consistancy or safety. So I don't think horses take the mick like human's do/can ie. with intent to mock, embarrass or be bloody minded. I believe horses just behave like horses and if they behave as we don't wish we (me and or previous humans) haven't taught them our rules and ettiquette effectively. To me blaming the horse for doing something 'on purpose' to annoy or get at us is absolving ourselves of the responsibility of understanding what is going on and actually dealing with it. If we want to be 'leaders' then we have to be leaders in actions not just in our heads.

I used to think 'oh my horse is just like that', but as I've learned more about them and spent time interacting with them I've realized that how my horses are, mentally and physically, is 99% down to me. Scarey but true and that responsibility does weigh heavy sometimes but is also so rewarding when it begins to come together.
 
amandap said:
Ah, dominance, my favorite subject! :D ;) Sadly for me it seems many take dominance to mean bossy, domineering, forceful and rough as well as I'm IT!

To me dominance in the above sense doesn't come into most of our 'training' of our horses which is what we are doing 90% of the time I estimate.
Many seem to equate dominance with aggression only but imo it can come out of fear and insecurity or rather attempts to dominate (as above) can and often do especially where humans are concerned. A classic example is the human who hits their horse when it bucks... the human is trying to get the horse to submit totally to it's will by punishment in the form of pain.
You can substitude knock human hard with head in a rub for buck seeing as that is the theme of this thread.
So why does the human do this? I suggest that some do it out of fear, shock, anger, no plan for this behaviour etc. I doubt many do it in a considered and 'correct' in behavioural terms way as punishment to reduce a behaviour.

Imo the problem with this approach is that there is no attempt to understand why the horse bucked which is how imo we should aproach this stuff ie. with a question.

Anyway, I'm waffling and of course it's never as simple as the example I've given! Just wanted to set fburton off talking again.:D
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I agree with you entirely. I did say I am NOT talking about dominance!
 
I'm of the opinion that if the poor sods have had me on their back for often hours at a time, they are perfectly welcome to rub, it doesn't bother me in the slightest.
I have never thought it bad manners- they generally only do it after they have been ridden, I just make sure I pulled my hunting jacket off before I get slobbered on.
Personally, the head rubbing is nothing compared to Oshk's licking/hair chewing/resting he likes to do, which I also quite enjoy :)
 
kirstyl said:
I agree with you entirely. I did say I am NOT talking about dominance!
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I did understand that. Perhaps I shouldn't have quoted you but it was that word dominance that attracted me!:D It's taken me a long time and quite a bit of heart ache to see that I don't/didn't see dominance in the same way as many do. It took me quite a while to understand that the meaning I described above was what peeps were referring to.;) I am a bit slow and in my own little world...
 
amandap said:
I did understand that. Perhaps I shouldn't have quoted you but it was that word dominance that attracted me!:D It's taken me a long time and quite a bit of heart ache to see that I don't/didn't see dominance in the same way as many do. It took me quite a while to understand that the meaning I described above was what peeps were referring to.;) I am a bit slow and in my own little world...
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Just so you know I'm with you on this and just because I don't allow my horse to rub himself on me, I am not into 'dominating' my horse. I want him to want to work with me and I also love him to bits - i just don't encourage him using me as a scratching post!!
 
fburton said:
To me it's just a behaviour. In most cases, it's motivated by itchiness for which rubbing provides relief. I think it's highly implausible that a horse does it to 'get one up on you'.
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Well if you are directly replying to my OP, I never once mentioned the horse 'getting one up on you' as that is quite ridiculous, nor do i think anyone else did.

I think the horse is simply having an itch too but I will not be a general scratching post. I do love to give my horse a good scratch where ever she wants it, be it on her head or her bum. As alot of others have said, she likes a little scratch on her head one the bridle comes off and I am happy to oblige.

My girl is very good and does not have any hang ups but I prefer it that she does not almost push me to to floor every time I interact with her, its about mutual respect for each others space imo, because with horses it boils back down to safety, they are large animals who could knock you over albeit accidentally but you could get hurt, that's the way I see it.
Others can do what they want but I personally prefer that a horse is not in the habit of this as they could knock over my friends children or my niece and nephews.

We all have our opinions but I will not be mis-quoted here, horses do not think about 'getting one up on you', simples :D
 
kirstyl said:
As far me being senior partner in me and my horse's relationship, I am not talking about 'dominance' or indeed just the matter of the horse wanting to rub on me. I want my horse to work with me and I love him dearly but he has to accept the rules and the conditions of that relationship, just as he has to with his field companions
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Totally agree :D
 
flamehead said:
I wont tolerate full on, knocking you sideways head rubs, however I dont mind if they just knock in to me briefly to say "aaaah mummy itchy here!". I will however brace myself against rubbing if they just want to rub against my hand and I can spend HOURS itching Puzzle all over. xxxx
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Exactly but if he tries to rub against any other part of me he is NOT allowed. I am too weak for it! not too mention there is nothing worse than said horse rubbing you when you are in you best nice clean show gear, how is he to know the difference? I hate it when people let their horses do it on a normal day but then scream and swipe at them because today they have their show gear on:mad:
 
MadisonBelle said:
SNAP! I have no problem with it.... I've worked them hard, they have a sweaty head, I jump off and if they go to rub I give them my back as a post!... Never had a problem with a horse who then thinks he is "leader"!?!?!?
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Snap again - my old boy only used to do it after a ride - I used to let him do it as a thank you. He wasn't rough or rude - he just had an ichy head.
 
Moggyinmanolos said:
Well if you are directly replying to my OP,
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I was commenting in general, not replying specifically to you. Sorry if you got the impression I was misquoting you.

I never once mentioned the horse 'getting one up on you' as that is quite ridiculous, nor do i think anyone else did.
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Glad you think so too. What prompted my comment about what motivates a horse to rub was mention of 'disrespect'. Often it's hard to tell what people mean exactly when they use that word (or its opposite) because it can interpreted in different ways. One way has to do with dominance (or 'leadership'). That is quite a common viewpoint, as other posts in this thread show. Since being dominant may be equated to being of higher rank, one possible motivation for head-rubbing - or any unwanted behaviour that's considered 'pushy' - is that the horse is seeking to express dominance over or be more dominant to the human - hence 'getting one up on you'. However, it's not an explanation I personally find plausible.

I agree with everything else you said, especially with regard to safety.
 
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