Owner won’t sell to us (loaning)

[Blueysmum]

Ok this is a long one lol

We have full loaned our gelding for coming up 18 months. We originally was just doing one or two days a week but the owner was asked to leave the livery/field and so we took him on full time. He was extremely skinny and hadn’t been looked after very well when we met him. He had zero ground manners and would barge you out the way to get food. He’s 13.

He had probably been sat on and rode around the field 5 times in his life, but the he owner said he had done abit of everything and we could canter him up the field. It was clear he knew nothing but he had such a sad face I couldn’t give up on him. His owner has some mental health issues and is unable to ever ride again. I think financially she wouldn’t manage either.

Anyway, in the 18 months we’ve had him we hired a trainer (my 16 year old rides him), they have started cross country and are doing absolutely amazing. The bond they have is so lovely to see and everyone at our livery adores him. He has the most amazing ground manners and is so polite. My daughter is so in love with him as are we.

His owner has been to see him 3 times and each time it was for a reason like to drop something off. We have his passport and vaccine information.

Iv asked if we can buy him and she’s said no she’s not interested in selling him. But last summer she went away with a friend and joked that said friend wanted to buy him for her young kids and she had actually considered it then remembered the friend couldn’t afford it he amount of dogs they had.

at our yard there’s a few people who know owner and are shocked at how well we’ve done with him, and they know themselves what his owner is like (hoarder etc).

I just feel sick at what could happen to him if she asks for him back.

When we did A worm count before we moved the vets said it was the worst they had seen that year.

we don’t have a contract, only a text saying she gives us first refusal if she decides to sell.

I don’t think she will ask for him back, I don’t think she’d manage, but she it’s always lurking after the amount of work and love we’ve put into him. I know, I know it’s part of loaning that they are never “yours”.

 

[AmyMay]

Simply offer her a sum she can’t refuse.

 

[chaps89]

Rather unfortunately this is the downside to loaning. Equally if your circumstances changed tomorrow, the upside is you can hand him back if needed (in theory anyway!)
It’s rubbish and it’s always hard if you and the owner have different views on management but you can’t force her to sell to you. (Unless you offer to pay well above market value and only you know if you can/would want to do that)

 

[Goldenstar]

Everyone will sell at a price .

 

[FlyingCircus]

I'd be less worried about her having him back to keep and more worried about her having him back to sell after all the work you've put in.

As above, offer what he's worth to you to keep.

 

[Blueysmum]

That’s what I’m worried about but iv said to my husband if she did I would probably take her court. I have a lot of evidence of him being skin and bones, his hooves, where he was living etc and the fact she’s said we have first refusal.

I’m going to have to think of a price, to us he’s priceless, we’ve already spent thousands on him with training and all his kit as he came with absolutely nothing lol

 

[AmyMay]

If you think you can afford to take her to court, then I guess you’re in a position to offer her a healthy 5 figure sum for the horse. Although I’m not sure what grounds you’d be taking her to court on

 

[FlyingCircus]

Sadly I don't think you have any grounds for taking her to court.

 

[Blueysmum]

No idea either lol but I just feel strongly about the situation. If I told anyone I would pay 5 figures for said pony they would think I was crazy. He’s still green and should be in his prime but we are very much working with a 5 year old physically if that makes sense. Trainer said it’s like a teenager going high school without going to primary. But I would probably think about it.

 

[Blueysmum]

Sadly I don't think you have any grounds for taking her to court.

Neither do I but it was the only thing keeping me sane lol

 

[Surbie]

Everyone will sell at a price .

That's not really true though. There are enough posters on here with horses out on loan that they say they will never sell.

OP, I'd make them an offer at market value if you want the horse. Asking if he's for sale isn't the same as being offered a specific sum. But I'd be prepared for a refusal.

 

[smolmaus]

That's not really true though. There are enough posters on here with horses out on loan that they say they will never sell.

If the owner has already joked about selling to a friend, and the horse was skin and bones at one point maybe OP is safe in assuming they aren't thinking the same as some posters here that they need to absolutely secure standard of care.

Perhaps this is very sneaky of me but I would remove anything on social media of the successes your daughter is having with him. Or maybe just quietly block what the owner can see. No need to drive up the price she might be coming up with in her head, or have available what she might then use to advertise him. Other than that, there isn't much you can do except decide what he is worth to you and then forget about it until something actually happens.

 

[Lois Lame]

That's not really true though. There are enough posters on here with horses out on loan that they say they will never sell.

Ah, but have they been tested?
I don't think you'd need to offer or show a five figure sum - I think she would jump at a four figure amount if it was a firm offer.

 

[Surbie]

If the owner has already joked about selling to a friend, and the horse was skin and bones at one point maybe OP is safe in assuming they aren't thinking the same as some posters here that they need to absolutely secure standard of care.

Perhaps this is very sneaky of me but I would remove anything on social media of the successes your daughter is having with him. Or maybe just quietly block what the owner can see. No need to drive up the price she might be coming up with in her head, or have available what she might then use to advertise him. Other than that, there isn't much you can do except decide what he is worth to you and then forget about it until something actually happens.

That's why I suggested making an offer to the owner.

However I still think that the blanket statement of 'everyone will sell at a price' is not true.

 

[Kaylum]

I would absolutely not offer a 5 figure sum for a horse I spent my own money on making a horse well again. I had the same situation over 28 years ago. He was skin and bone no education and had been left in a field. I had a verbal agreement that I had first refusal if he was sold I brought him back to good health and they just used me. I could not afford the asking price and he was sold. Never again would I loan a horse without the value of sale being agreed up front. It's left out of loan agreements and should be included. The value should be the horse you take on at the time. Lesson learnt for me.

 

[Tiddlypom]

It's the chance anyone takes with loaning.

It's the owner's prerogative to take the horse back when they care to.

You've got no grounds to take the owner to court. Just offer to buy the horse or be prepared to wave the horse goodbye.

When I loaned my young junior eventer out, I agreed the value as she was when the loan home took her on, and stated that they could keep any uplift in value if she had ever gone on to be sold elsewhere. You do not seem to have done that.

As it is, after a number of successes she came back broken and had to be retired at age 7 - as her owner that was the risk that I took loaning her out. I didn't ask for or get reimbursed for the fall in her value.

 

[JBM]

You have no loan agreement?
First refusal is nice to offer but she has no legal obligation to do it realistically whether she said she would or not.
You took the pony on knowing you couldn’t buy the pony. It’s her pony
I’m loaning out one of mine and she will never ever be for sale. I will never be able to ride her as she’s too small but she’s part of my family.
If I heard the people I’m loaning to talking like this I’d take her back

 

[scats]

How much is he worth to you?
I think it might be a case of offer something she can’t refuse, if he means that much and you are in a position to.

Sadly this is the problem you have with loaning. They can be taken back at any time.

 

[Gallop_Away]

It's the chance anyone takes with loaning.

It's the owner's prerogative to take the horse back when they care to.

You've got no grounds to take the owner to court. Just offer to buy the horse or be prepared to wave the horse goodbye.

This! Unfortunately this is the chance you take when loaning.

He is still her horse and she has the absolute right to refuse to sell to you. As for the taking her to court comment......

And for the record not everyone is easily bought. Someone could literally write me a blank cheque but I would never sell any of my horses. Not everything is about money.

You need to just accept the fact that she has said you will have first refusal IF she decides to sell but if she doesn't want to sell him that is her choice and the risk you take with loaning.

 

[Blueysmum]

Tbh like I said I don’t think she would asked for him back, she couldn’t financially afford it and has nowhere to keep him.

Unless she sold him on, but I would offer more.

 

[Blueysmum]

Going to try not to worry about it for now lol, il cross the bridge when we come to it.

 

[VRIN]

As an alternative strategy - why not explain to owner that you have decided you want to buy a horse for your children rather than keep on loaning. You could ask if she was willing to sell - offer a price that you think is fair - if she says no then you could say that the horse will need to be returned once you have found one to buy. That may prompt her to sell as I am guessing that she is not in a position to have it back. Equally, she hasn't asked for it back in 18 months and I am guessing is happy that you are looking after it well so why 'rock the boat' - just enjoy the experience. You may find you want to 'upgrade' as your children become more experienced and a loan will save you the hassle of a sale.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Personally if you are able to and have the necessary ££££ then I'd offer her a silly-sum she can't say no to. Cash. Let her see the cash under her hot little nose and smell it's sweetness. It often works wonders with this sort.

We had a horse here at my yard which came in not a good state: owner had basically abandoned it. My friend/yard sharer worked darned hard on it. We got the vet out as soon as it arrived - and it was one of those vet appointments where you don't know but that you'll have a carcass to dispose of at the end of the appointment - the mare was in such bad condition. However the mare was built up over a winter of chilling & turnout; and my friend also did a LOT (and I mean a lot) of rehab & remedial work with her gaining her confidence as well as spending a fair bit on vets bills & feed. Owner handed over £40 and thought they were being generous.

Owner then rocked up one cold wet Saturday in the following February and stated they were "having their horse back" in the summer. There was nowt anyone could do and mare was duly sent off to new home. Leaving a huge hole in my lovely friend's heart as she'd done a lot of work with this mare and had got fond of her. To be fair, the mare now seems to be doing OK with the owner, who had given her up in the first place due to a family situation that she couldn't cope with at the time.

This is the trouble with a loan tho'; as soon as you start making an improvement to a horse the owner wants it back. It sucks.

 

[ycbm]

Unless he went to a dealer, in which case you could offer the dealer a very quick profit, it seems unlikely that he could be sold without viewings at the yard he's at now, so you'd be in the right place to know, and offer more.

I think your strategy of trying not to worry is the right one and hopefully in a while she'll either have forgotten about him or find herself in a situation where she needs some money quickly.
.

 

[SantaVera]

casll her bluff ,winter is coming and shes been asked to leave the yard. offer a reasonable price and if she doesnt accept give the horse back, shell have to find a new yard for it and pay for its keep and probably wont want the hassle.

 

[Melody Grey]

I think with a loan there will always be elements of the arrangement outside of your control (which is why I don’t loan).

Try to enjoy the situation here and now for what it is and work with any changes to that as they come along. I think it would be wise to have money aside and an idea of his value so you’re not caught off guard, but I wouldn’t stress over it.

 

[Glitter's fun]

Your daughter is 16. Within the working life of this horse she will leave home, start college, get her first job, have several unsuitable boyfriends just to annoy you, get engaged twice, settle in three different towns....
Loaning is the best idea for someone in their later teens. It requires a different mindset. You learned a huge amount & now know you can bring on another if necessary. Enjoy him.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Everyone will sell at a price .

Absolutely not true. Our pony is now retired aged 35, in her younger days she was a super jumper and went on loan twice when my daughter outgrew her, but we would never have considered selling her, even for silly money. No doubt stupid but that's how we are.

 

[Jenko109]

I'm another who would call her bluff.

Offer to buy the pony and if she refuses then end the loan. She sounds like hard work anyway and I wouldnt want to be at the mercy of someone like that. Joking to you about selling him to someone else is vile.

In your months notice, turn the pony out and let him go feral.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Make out like the horse has blown a tendon or similar, and say to her I will offer you 'x' amount to buy now as I am about to spend a lot in vets fees, or I'll have to return him and you will have to have the vet etc as i'm not willing to shell out on a horse that isn't mine at the end of it..

Don't do that, but it's one of those things you'd like to do to see her face