Owner won't take loan horse back - keep or PTS!

[AstonishedTrowel]

Hi all!
I've had a horse on loan for about 1.5 y, he recently came up lame and after vet exams (by our local surgery) we suspected hock arthritis - the horse is insured so our local vet injected the joints with steroids as I wanted to give him a chance. All with the owner's permission.
Since then, the horse has not come sound, local vet suspects SI issue but is not equipped to diagnose or treat. Sadly, I do not have the transport, time or facilities to do this for the loan horse, especially as he isn't mine.
After a lot of crying, I have contacted the owner who informs me they won't take the horse back/get it treated and that the only other option is that I PTS.
I am gobsmacked. I wasn't even asked for the vet records or for contact information so that the owner could speak to my vet.
We had a standard BHS loan contract in place which ended Dec 2020 and via e-mail was extended for "as long as I want him" - so I am unsure where I stand with this, though I am willing and prepared to give a full month's notice.
I am so heartbroken, I have the horses best interests at heart and want to advocate for him, but I can't do this to my own detriment. I loaned the horse as a riding horse and it is no longer fit for purpose (doing my best to keep as anonymous as possible).
Any and all advice is welcome, please.
Thank you

 

[tallyho!]

What would you do if he were yours?

Out of interest, what are his symptoms? I know you want to stay anonymous so you can PM me. Only reason I ask is that so many horses I know and online who have presented with hock/SI issues end up having PSSM which is completely manageable. With the right diet, horses quite often become rideable again.

 

[Melody Grey]

I would offer to buy for £1 with receipt and then get the horse transported to a larger vet practice. An initial lameness work up won’t cost an awful lot and if it is just a case of injecting SI, you might have many more years left to ride again. If the horse has been a good fit for you so far, I’d be inclined to try to resolve it.

 

[AmyMay]

I would offer to buy for £1 with receipt and then get the horse transported to a larger vet practice. An initial lameness work up won’t cost an awful lot and if it is just a case of injecting SI, you might have many more years left to ride again. If the horse has been a good fit for you so far, I’d be inclined to try to resolve it.

I agree.

 

[Melandmary]

I had a similar thing happen to me about 8 years ago. I had a horse on lwvtb. Within 3 months I realised she had limited vision in 1 eye and had hock arthritis. I had her hocks injected but then it was one thing after another and she went lame on the front and vet said she had ems. When I contacted the owner she said she didn't want her back. I kept her for about 6 months before pts at my own expense. The horse was also not the age she said she was. There are some heartless people in the horse world

 

[CMcC]

As the owner has made it clear they won’t have the horse back and if you pushed this and did return they have made it clear PTS is what they would do. They are clearly not honouring the loan agreement you had.
As I see it your choice is to make the commitment to investigate further and treat as appropriate or PTS now if you don’t have resources to do that.
Tough choice but pushing responsibility back to the owner (although the responsibility is morally theirs) is only going to end one way. If the horse has to be PTS perhaps better to do it in the home they are settled in rather than being moved around, perhaps to somewhere less suitable and their last days/weeks being miserable and unhappy.

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

I am so heartbroken, I have the horses best interests at heart and want to advocate for him, but I can't do this to my own detriment. I loaned the horse as a riding horse and it is no longer fit for purpose (doing my best to keep as anonymous as possible).
Any and all advice is welcome, please.
Thank you

maybe I’m too soft but if I was heartbroken over a horse I would be doing everything possible for them, even if it meant they couldn’t be ridden. My advice is buy the horse for £1, get a full work up done and find the issue and medicate/PTS based on findings and rest easy knowing the horse you love has had the right thing done by him.

ps having horses/animals to me means always putting their best interests first even if to your own detriment. If I wasn’t prepared to do that then I wouldn’t have them.

 

[Tiddlypom]

If it is 'just' SI pain remaining, then as said that is quite straightforward and not too spendy to medicate. Horse ideally needs to be in the stocks (but can be done without), and the vet gets up high on a stepladder and inserts really long needles into the SI joints with or without ultrasound guidance.

I've had both hocks and both SI joints medicated in one visit - results good. Hocks were done with gel, couldn't have all that done with steroid on one day.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

maybe I’m too soft but if I was heartbroken over a horse I would be doing everything possible for them, even if it meant they couldn’t be ridden. My advice is buy the horse for £1, get a full work up done and find the issue and medicate/PTS based on findings and rest easy knowing the horse you love has had the right thing done by him.

ps having horses/animals to me means always putting their best interests first even if to your own detriment. If I wasn’t prepared to do that then I wouldn’t have them.

This is fine and all, and I am of a similar view, but putting the horse to sleep isn't in the horses worst interest, really.

OP has a horse on loan, which means she doesn't own the horse and has actually already gone above and beyond her duties as a sharer in terms of investment and care. This isn't her horse and by taking on a loan, she should be entitled to the benefits of being a sharer in that the commitment is less and she can end it at any time.

It's fine to say that you'll do whatever it takes even to your own detriment but we're not all so privileged. For some a share is taken on because financially owning is not feasible, but a share is (again, comes with less obligations as well as no purchase price). For some it would literally be between putting food in the table/paying essential household bills and the horses vet bills.

Normally I'd say, make it work, you have an obligation, you should have enough to cover this and/or have insurance, IF the OP owned the horse.

This is why it's such a hard situation and I feel for the OP.

If the owner gave explicit permission to have the horse pts, I imagine the OP could do so and forward the bill to the owner. Or pay and demand reimbursement from the owner.

It's entirely dependent on the OP's personal situation. While I want every horse to have a chance and the best care, there is a fine line between that and putting yourself in a bad situation (mostly financially).

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

CC I read it as she had the horse on full loan not a share. But I agree owner does have final responsibility but if I thought horse wasn’t going to get best treatment by going back and I had owners permission then I would take on and sort myself. But completely agree not everyone is in that position financially etc (I’d argue that unless you have access to emergency funds then animal ownership is not for you but I appreciate I am quite extreme maybe in that view).

In a nut shell my post above was just what I would do in the situation given my financial situ and ideals

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Sorry, I used share and loan a bit interchangeably. My mistake. Was firing off the post from my phone a bit too quick!

You're not extreme in the view that if you don't have access to emergency funds then animal ownership isn't for you. I think many would agree, myself included. However, she doesn't own the animal. That's my point here. So OP is "excluded" from my usual view on the matter.

I understand it is what you would do. I also know what I would do. I also know that in life sh*t happens and I have to look outside of my own privilege and realize that not all people have the same advantages, funds, and resources. OP is trying to sort out a difficult situation with what she has, and I just don't want her to feel badly about it. If she has to pts, it really isn't the worst thing the horse could face.

If it is as simple as a SI injection, that'd be great, but we don't know. The owner should step up and assist. The owner is the one being sh***y here. OP is also willing to give notice per the contract. Idk why all of the responsibility is passed onto the OP. That's a bit unfair too. In the end though, it's the horse who it is mostly unfair to, sadly.

I would take the horse on as mentioned, but I understand that's just not realistic for everyone.

 

[Ownedby4horses]

It sounds like the owner has washed their hands of the horse. OP, if it was me, as The horse is insured, I would be finding transport and getting the horse to a vets practice that could do further investigations (As at the end of the day, the horse is the one stuck in the middle of everything, requiring treatment). I would be wanting to get to the bottom of the issue, so that I fully understand what was wrong (instead of just a small local practice diagnosing). Then you could make a more informed choice about how to proceed, whether that be further treatment or if appropriate putting to sleep. I’m afraid if the owner does not wish to be involved, then I would be trying to find the resources to get treatment.

The horse is insured, so use the insurance.

 

[Trouper]

If the owner would agree to sell for £1, then your most difficult issue is sorted. The horse is yours and you have total control over what happens to him.

If you had a full loan agreement in place then, presumably, you were prepared to face some vet bills at some stage. Only you can say how much of a financial commitment you are able to make for his treatment so you would need to have that conversation with your vet. I would expect that to involve a full lameness work up to truly identify the problem areas.

You say that you don't have the transport, time or facilities to do this but your vet will have the last two - and there are always local transporters who can take him to the vets.

I guess it all depends on how really invested you are in this horse.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Wait, the horse is insured? I didn't see that.

If that is the case, OP, can you get transport sorted? Even if you reach out on here, I'm sure someone in your general area could get you connected to someone that could transport for you.

I'm also not sure what the loan contract entailed as far as vet stuff, so there's that.

I think, either way, OP has to have a sit down (with themselves) and do some thinking and planning to see what's feasible and determine how much they are really committed to this horse.

 

[Frano]

OP says the horse is insured ,no more cost will be incurred by the loaner.Is it worth getting a vet with all the facilities to look into the problem. A very difficult situation.

 

[Ownedby4horses]

Yes CC, the horse is insured. This is the bit I’m struggling with, if I was heartbroken about a horse, I’d be using that insurance completely up with whatever it took to try to get the horse right (Even though in an ideal world we would hope the owner would have been involved too).

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Yes CC, the horse is insured. This is the bit I’m struggling with, if I was heartbroken about a horse, I’d be using that insurance completely up with whatever it took to try to get the horse right.

Idk how I glossed over that one ?

Well, perhaps with the thought in my head that insurance usually doesn't cover much here/is not nearly as good as the coverage in the UK. ?‍

 

[paddy555]

maybe I’m too soft but if I was heartbroken over a horse I would be doing everything possible for them, even if it meant they couldn’t be ridden. My advice is buy the horse for £1, get a full work up done and find the issue and medicate/PTS based on findings and rest easy knowing the horse you love has had the right thing done by him.

ps having horses/animals to me means always putting their best interests first even if to your own detriment. If I wasn’t prepared to do that then I wouldn’t have them.

this.

The bit in the OP "he wasn't fit for purpose" was upsetting. He is a horse not a motor bike. The loan appears to have been fine as long as he was "fit for purpose" but then when he breaks he is no longer wanted. Not only that but he is not going to have further vet investigations even though he is insured as the OP doesn't have transport, time or facilities.
Transport can be hired, I wonder if the time would be available if he could be ridden and the vet will provide the facilities.

 

[dorsetladette]

I would offer to buy for £1 with receipt and then get the horse transported to a larger vet practice. An initial lameness work up won’t cost an awful lot and if it is just a case of injecting SI, you might have many more years left to ride again. If the horse has been a good fit for you so far, I’d be inclined to try to resolve it.

This is what I'd be trying to do.

Transport to a good/bigger vet practise for a full work up, bloods, any PSSM tests and anything else I could think of or the vet could suggest (I'm not familiar with PSSM, but know it can show symptoms which often get diagnosed as something else) honestly go over him with a fine tooth comb. At this point with all the information in front of me I'd then feel comfortable making a decision whether to PTS or treat with the support of a good honest vet.

 

[ycbm]

After a lot of crying

This I don't get. I understand wanting to send a lame loan horse back. I understand putting a horse down for financial reasons.

But you have insurance and you are so upset that you are crying over losing the horse, so I don't understand why you wouldn't make time (you presumably had time to ride him when he was fit) and hire transport to get him to a hospital which can diagnose and treat the SI.

Where you stand on it is that it will be very difficult to force the owner to have the horse back unless she has land where you would be prepared to dump him. I'm afraid you are going to either have to try to get this horse right or have him put to sleep, which you already have her instruction to do. If you do the latter I would pay your bill and send another bill to the owner to pay you back.
.

 

[Ownedby4horses]

OP, do the right thing and get the transport arranged to the vets, it’s a small price to pay to get the poor horse the treatment it needs. I totally agree, the horse isn’t an object that you can just return as it’s now broken. ?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

If the horse is insured I don't see the problem tbh. I understand that when people take horses on loan they usually want to be able to ride and would want to send the horse back to the owner if the problem was going to be long term. However in this case, with insurance and a problem that is relatively easily fixed, along with an owner that has washed their hands, I would use the insurance but insist that the owner sells to me for a nominal sum.

 

[TPO]

Some insurance policies cover some of the transportation fees if going to vet horspital so read thr small print.

To have the horse pts is going to cost circa £500 if you use a vet to inject and get the carcass uplifted (no ashes etc).

Ask the vet for a quote and it might very well turn out cheaper to get the poor thing investigated and treated then you do have your "fit for purpose" machine back.

Alternatively if you arent prepared to seek further veterinary treatment or pts then you need legal advice (BHS helpline if a gold member) on how to return the horse. @Pennyless on here had a similar issue that owners wouldn't accept a loan horse back so if you search her old posts you might find it.

Another option is that there are at least 10 posters on here looking for a horse. Give his vague details and if someone is interested then perhaps an arrangement could be made for you to take ownership and pass him on to them. He might be very suitable for someone else as medicating hocks and SI isnt that uncommon. Then the horse gets to live and you dont have to keep him

 

[ester]

Ditto transport will likely be cheaper than PTS so I'd absolutely be happy to stump up the transport for an insured horse to go to a vet clinic for further investigation/treatment. Obviously if you hate it and don't want it then PTS

There will also be other local practices with different capabilities, for instance my vets mobile xray isn't very good at jaws, but another practice (actually much more local, I asked as he could actually have been hacked there and we had not transport) has a much better mobile xray machine which will cope with heads/jaws.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I have a horse on loan that the owner can’t take back. She has a medical condition that I wasn’t aware of when I took her on.

I have managed the condition at my expense and will PTS when she’s not happy. I will approach the owner for permission and a financial contribution to that but if the horse isn’t happy and isn’t going to recover then a lack of financial contributions won’t prevent me from making final decisions.

I feel I have a duty of care to her. I have taken the decision that what is fair and right between the humans will come second to what is fair and right for the horse.

 

[Polos Mum]

Lots of good suggestions on here about using up the insurance limit before making drastic decisions.

But - if after that (or if you choose not to do that - which is your right) I would be really careful about PTS someone else's horse without very detailed and confirmed written evidence that that is what they request - or you could end up in all sorts of mess. In fact I would get them to be there to be 100% sure everyone is clear that is their instruction not yours alone.

If you really don't want to keep him then just write to the owner and state that you are ending the loan, giving the notice as set out in the contract you have, and that you will return him on XX date. You can also acknowledge that if the owner wishes for the horse to be PTS they can arrange that at their convenience from XX date at their yard.

 

[maya2008]

PTS for a 13.2hh incl disposal was £700 two years ago. Transport will cost a lot less than that.

 

[hgolding]

Poor horse.

It isn't expensive to get transport to a different vet - you can hire a 3.5 ton lorry for £80-£100 a day. Not sure why you wouldn't at least get it investigated, given that the horse in insured. After investigations you can make a more informed decision. The horse might not belong to you, but I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I had an animal in my care put down without even attempting to find out what the issue was.

From - someone with a loan horse who is currently lame and awaiting surgery which may or may not be successful. Should he not come sound, he will be retired with me, even if it means I can't afford a ridden horse, because he's an animal, and my friend, not a bike.

 

[TPO]

PTS for a 13.2hh incl disposal was £700 two years ago. Transport will cost a lot less than that.

Jeez that's a lot. Was that a straightforward procedure and just an uplift?

I had a 16.3hh TB pts in Feb and it was £250 for vet and £250 for uplift. Sadly having had a few pts since 2008 that's always been the ballpark amount.

But yeah if an insurance claim has already been started seems madness not to follow it through. When I've hired a 3.5t with driver for yard moves or vet visits it's been around £150. Much cheaper than pts

 

[The Xmas Furry]

PTS for a 13.2hh incl disposal was £700 two years ago. Transport will cost a lot less than that.

2 years ago had vet pts and knacker dispose and the bill came to £480 for a hefty 13.3 native.
Had I just used knacker man for all (as I usually do) then it would have been 250 for shoot and remove. This is in v pricey home counties.