Owner won't take loan horse back - keep or PTS!

[dorsetladette]

I honestly can't see that the transport would be an obstacle in getting a horse to the vets. I've lent trailers to friends, called favours off friends, borrowed trailers, etc. When I've needed to transport horse/ponies about. I'd imagine there would be a friend OP's yard who would help drop off and collect from the Vets as long as its worked around their own commitments.

Another option is a small local firm - we have one close to us. They use a 4x4 and trailer and do very reasonable rates for short trips (ie vets, fun rides etc)

 

[maya2008]

2 years ago had vet pts and knacker dispose and the bill came to £480 for a hefty 13.3 native.
Had I just used knacker man for all (as I usually do) then it would have been 250 for shoot and remove. This is in v pricey home counties.

Will shop around if needed in future then! Not many vets in our area and most use the hunt for disposal, but she had had too many drugs for that - was cremation and pts costs.

 

[Melody Grey]

Another way of looking at this, is if you want a ridden horse, prices are absolutely bonkers and availability of both horses for sale and loan horses is scant at the moment. If you did manage to find something else to loan/ buy you could end up in exactly the same situation. At least the horse you have is already here and is a known quantity in terms of their character and more general health and suitability. Investigate OP, a no- brained (to me anyway).

 

[eggs]

As it sounds as though this could be fixable and you have insurance I would be inclined to get more veterinary investigations done. My insurer - NFU - does cover the cost of hiring transport as part of the vet fee pay out so worth checking your insurance.

Depending on the outcome of the investigation you then have a number of options:

- treat horse and hopefully he will come sound
- treat horse and he does not come sound
- find out that it is untreatable

if the first one then you would presumably continue with the loan

for the last two it is then up to you whether you continue the loan or return the horse

the owner may or may not pts if you return the horse (they may just be emotionally blackmailing you)

I do think that if you pts the horse the owner should pay the costs as he does belong to them although you would need this in writing before pts

 

[Fransurrey]

Jeez that's a lot. Was that a straightforward procedure and just an uplift?

I had a 16.3hh TB pts in Feb and it was £250 for vet and £250 for uplift. Sadly having had a few pts since 2008 that's always been the ballpark amount.

But yeah if an insurance claim has already been started seems madness not to follow it through. When I've hired a 3.5t with driver for yard moves or vet visits it's been around £150. Much cheaper than pts

It was nearly £600 for me in Surrey in 2019 and that didn't include disposal (he was donated to the vet school).

 

[Horse2018]

You can’t pts without the owners permission . You can’t make that discussion with this horse without discussing it with the owner. my friend had that happen to her and she pts without permission and it ended very badly and the owner reported her. she got in trouble with equine rescue because she didn’t own the horse she had no rights to pts.

If money is tight that you can’t afford the vet bills and the transport then maybe it not a good idea to loan and own a horse again. I would get some legal advice.

 

[Kat]

I think your best option would be to buy the horse for £1 from the owner (get a receipt) and then use the insurance to do as much treatment/investigation as you can. If the horse comes right you have a bargain, which you can keep or sell on. If it doesn't then you PTS at your own cost.

The alternative is you tell the owner that you are terminating the loan agreement and they need to either take the horse back or instruct the vet themselves to PTS at your premises. You can't have someone else's horse PTS. You also shouldn't have to pay for PTS (though the loan agreement may say you have to transport the horse back to the owner at your cost).

It is a shame for the horse but they are your options.

 

[ester]

You can’t pts without the owners permission . You can’t make that discussion with this horse without discussing it with the owner. my friend had that happen to her and she pts without permission and it ended very badly and the owner reported her. she got in trouble with equine rescue because she didn’t own the horse she had no rights to pts.

If money is tight that you can’t afford the vet bills and the transport then maybe it not a good idea to loan and own a horse again. I would get some legal advice.

It was the owners suggestion?

 

[Kat]

It was the owners suggestion?

But it isn't the loaners responsibility to do it and even if she wanted to do it then she should be really careful she has good evidence that the owner requested this and was fully aware and in agreement.

Far easier to say the owner has to arrange and pay for it with a vet of their choice and be present as then there can be no argument.

 

[ester]

Oh I'd want it written down it just reads a bit like the OP is randomly opting to PTS someone elses horse.

 

[Kat]

Oh I'd want it written down it just reads a bit like the OP is randomly opting to PTS someone elses horse.

I'd want the cash upfront and written consent at least.

Tbh I think the owner should be facing their responsibilities and doing it themselves rather than just leaving it to the loaner if they don't want to treat the horse.

 

[greenbean10]

I agree buy the horse.

If you can’t do a full workup at a hospital then I’d get a vet to come and inject the SI at home and see if that makes a difference.

Shouldn’t cost more than a couple of hundred, it’s the diagnostics that get you! If the vet suspects SI problems he should be happy to inject.

ETA Just remembered you have insurance. They may pay for transport! But even so it’s possible to diagnose and treat SI problems at home.

 

[Ownedby4horses]

I think it’s easy to assume the owner is in a position to help, we have no idea of the owner’s situation at this time, the fact that the horse has been on loan for 1.5yrs is obviously because the owner does have the time/physical capacity/etc to care for the horse

I totally agree that the owner, in an ideal world should be getting involved but that, for whatever reason, isn’t happening. The fact that it appears to have been the first suggestion from the owner to PTS, tells me they aren’t able/won’t get involved further, for whatever reason.

The horse, at the end of the day is in the OP’s care, it needs a vet and it is insured. OP, just get someone to give you a lift, hire the transport and do the right thing for this horse that you say you are heartbroken over.

I personally could not even contemplate PTS without thorough investigations having been done (this is what the insurance is for!!!).

 

[teddypops]

Get the horse to a vet who can diagnose and treat. There are lots of horse transporters around these days. Use your insurance, why is there insurance if it’s not going to be used? Depending on your policy, the insurance may also pay or part pay transport costs. I had a pony retired with hock arthritis, but when his hocks fused, he came sound and I had about 5 more years of riding him before he was PTS at 32. If you don’t want to do the his and the owner refuses him back then you have no choice but to PTS.

 

[teddypops]

You can’t pts without the owners permission . You can’t make that discussion with this horse without discussing it with the owner. my friend had that happen to her and she pts without permission and it ended very badly and the owner reported her. she got in trouble with equine rescue because she didn’t own the horse she had no rights to pts.

If money is tight that you can’t afford the vet bills and the transport then maybe it not a good idea to loan and own a horse again. I would get some legal advice.[/QUOTE
The owner has told her to PTS

 

[Horse2018]

It won’t let me quoit the massage but I didn’t read it right sorry op .

 

[Leandy]

What does the loan agreement say about cost of PTS? Pretty sure the standard BHS one says it is the cost of the owner. So if the owner has consented to putting the horse to sleep (make sure you have evidence of that consent) then you could sue the owner for the costs (although you may not want to bother). The agreement also usually covers what happens if the owner will not take the horse back. You need to give notice in accordance with the contract and follow the contract to the letter. If the owner will not accept the horse back at the end of the notice period (usually the contract will say it is for the loaner to get the horse transported to the owner), then follow what the contract says. If the contract does not cover the owner refusing to take the horse back then I think you should follow the abandonment procedure at the end of the notice period and ownership of the horse will pass to you. Then you can decide what you want to do with your horse.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Just get the horse to a big vet practice and find out what is wrong it sounds like it can be easily fixed and you have insurance I don't really see an issue unless the horse can't be fixed! Then you need to speak to the owner about what happens next.

 

[Laafet]

2 years ago had vet pts and knacker dispose and the bill came to £480 for a hefty 13.3 native.
Had I just used knacker man for all (as I usually do) then it would have been 250 for shoot and remove. This is in v pricey home counties.

I was quoted £700 by Rossdales for mine, I used a very kind knackerman that was recommended by a friend for £180. I think the reason why we see so many horses that are not being 'cared' for is because the cost of PTS is so high unless you are prepared to stomach the bullet option. I got a whole load of grief off other liveries for choosing that option, I did ask if they would chip in extra money so I could have it done in a way that wasn't offensive to them and they declined.

This poor horse just needs working up, transport is relatively cheap and if you ask about someone might take him for you. Plus he's insured I see no reason why not to investigate at least.

 

[Birker2020]

Will shop around if needed in future then! Not many vets in our area and most use the hunt for disposal, but she had had too many drugs for that - was cremation and pts costs.

My 17.1hh was PTS 3 weeks ago disposal (fallen stock cremation) was included, the bill came to around the £350 mark.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Most insurance policies have an excess to pay - some up to £500. Most don't include transport. Not everyone has a friendly neighbour with a lorry. Commercial transporters are expensive.

Loan agreements generally say that minor issues arising are the responsibility of the loaner but any veterinary issue that prevents the horse from fulfilling the role set out in the agreement for a certain period - I think my loan says 30 days - leads to the end of the loan and the owner should have the horse back to address whatever the problem is.

People loan for all sorts of reasons but often it is financial and/or the ability to walk away if your life circumstances don't allow a long term commitment.

The owner is the one here who is not fulfilling either the terms of the loan or her responsibilities to her horse.

Sorry you are in this situation OP. It is absolutely not your responsibility to have the horse PTS. Personally I would give notice in writing and inform the owner of the date I was dropping the horse off back to her. That should focus the mind a bit and at least open up a discussion with her so she can't just wash her hands of this situation. If your starting point is: I am ending the loan and returning your horse as per our contract, you may find she is more willing to look at other options such as gifting the horse to you or contributing to some of the costs of transporting/investigating/treating. At the moment she is dictating terms that are wholly unreasonable. If push came to shove I could not follow through in just dropping an unwanted horse off somewhere but I'd start there and see where I ended.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

Lots of great advice here OP, although I’d say only offer to purchase the horse for a nominal amount if the insurance is in your name rather than you paying to cover the owners insurance or similar, otherwise you’ll likely find yourself having to set up a new policy and the horse considered a new purchase with a pre-existing condition and no cover.

Are you willing to say whereabouts you are? I’m sure someone would be happy to help you transport to the vet if you’re nearby, I certainly would if you’re near us.

 

[Ambers Echo]

ETA just to add - if the owner agrees to have the horse back, you need to be aware that she may well then PTS herself. Again people loan OUT for lots of reasons - including financial, life circumstances etc. If the owner does not want to investigate or treat her horse and will therefore PTS instead, that is up to her. Loaning allows you to walk away but also prevents you having a say in what happens next. I personally think buying for £1 is the option I would prefer but with the caution expressed above by FF. Whose insurance policy is it?

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Soohhh.... the owner fobs off a horse they basically know is a crock on someone unsuspecting like the OP, then expect them to sort out their problem for them.

Even presuming the OP/loanee IS prepared to take on this poor unfortunate horse out of the goodness of their heart and then carry out veterinary investigations to see what exactly is going on (and that won't be cheap we all know). But at the end of the day IF there is no other solution but to euthanise then owner conveniently stands back and does sweet FA and lets someone else see to all the unpleasantness concerned with this, and to add insult to injury offers sweet diddly-squat in the way of helping with the expenses of PTS!!

Honestly, some people's callousness and sheer bleddi cheek simply astounds me.

I am rendered speechless.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Sorry duplicate post donno why that happened X

 

[Casey76]

Soohhh.... the owner fobs off a horse they basically know is a crock on someone unsuspecting like the OP, then expect them to sort out their problem for them.

Even presuming the OP/loanee IS prepared to take on this poor unfortunate horse out of the goodness of their heart and then carry out veterinary investigations to see what exactly is going on (and that won't be cheap we all know). But at the end of the day IF there is no other solution but to euthanise then owner conveniently stands back and does sweet FA and lets someone else see to all the unpleasantness concerned with this, and to add insult to injury offers sweet diddly-squat in the way of helping with the expenses of PTS!!

Honestly, some people's callousness and sheer bleddi cheek simply astounds me.

I am rendered speechless.

The OP has had the horse on loan for over a year. Hardly the owner ‘fobbing off a crock’. Problems with hocks/SI can certainly occur over the period of a year.

 

[Kat]

The owner chose to loan not sell, therefore wanted to retain control of the horse. Anyone putting their horse out on loan should be aware that the horse may come back and be prepared for that. If they want the horse PTS it is their responsibility.

 

[meleeka]

I think it’s pretty simple really. The horse is insured, so nobody has to pay out loads of money. If OP wants the horse, then use the insurance to find out what’s wrong and buy it from owner for £1. If the OP doesn’t want the horse now it’s broken, then send back to owner to do with what they see fit or let owner arrange for pts where it is.

OP who’s paying the insurance? If you see it seems a pretty big waste of money if you aren’t willing to claim on it.

 

[AstonishedTrowel]

Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to comment, I was looking for opinions and I guess I got them, whether they were pleasant or not (this horse has never been treated as an object by me and never will, It's a shame I can't say the same for it's owner)! After looking at PSSM the horse doesn't fit any of the symptoms aside from hind limb lameness - which is not intermittent, so I'm not too sure on that one.
I like the horse and have always given him the absolute best I can (already footed some decent bills) although I wouldn't say I love him to death and we're not a perfect fit, he owes me absolutely nothing. After reading my contract in detail, because the owner will not accept the horse back it has become my right to take ownership and have it put into my name should I wish. If the owner had been transparent and honest with me from the beginning then perhaps we wouldn't be in this situation, but hindsight is 20-20...
Our local vet is an equine specialist who can do a lot and has been truly brilliant, but we live in a rural area and our nearest specialist is a 3/3.5 h drive. I am now going further afield for transport options (self-drive would be the last resort, I've been driving a car (poorly) for less than 2 years...) but I can't help but feel I would be giving in to emotional blackmail and that this would be the last I'd hear from the owner. It seems very unfair and no one deserves this, least of all the horse, who will only be PTS if it faces a life of pain and it is the right thing to do - even then, I will not be doing that unless I have officially transferred ownership.
Thank you all.

ETA: I am paying the insurance but sadly transport is not covered. My contract is the standard BHS loan agreement, so:

"5.1 In the event that the Horse sustains an injury or develops an illness that will prevent it from fulfilling the purpose set out in clause 3.3 for a period exceeding 30 days the Borrower may terminate the agreement and return the horse.
5.2 In the event of the Horse’s death the Owner will be responsible for any euthanasia and disposal expenses."

I will not be putting the horse to sleep (for moral and legal reasons), if he has to return to the owner and that's what she wishes to do then that's extremely sad, as she bred it and produced it from day 1.

 

[ester]

Is it your insurance? I agree with the above that it might make now 'owning' the horse now trickier if it's not.

AE we had a £500 excess on both our policies but that was an active decision.