Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

[JenJ]

It's very simple though, this horse was trying to kill him and if he wouldn't have done what he has done with the horse (and risk his life), this horse might have put quite a number of people in the hospital and even worse, he might have killed some too.

Trying to kill him? By backing off and trying to get away from PP? That's all I've seen in the videos. Have you some other evidence of the attempt to kill?

 

[Crackerz]

(iwasn't going to reply again, but can't help myself)

Shutterfoto what a load of twaddle. I've worked with stallions in the past, and have my own one now too. If that horse wanted to kill PP, he would have. There wasn't agression from Catwalk in the videos, or from eye witness accounts, including 2 close friends of mine that aren't on here & haven't seen the uproar the demo has caused so aren't 'jumping on the PP bashing bandwagon' (although they are extremely upset).

 

[Sparkles]

Backing off, rearing up, spinning and generally going 'backwards' for reactions, surely shows the flight response to just get away from the possible 'danger', not an agressive response to try and 'kill' the handler.

Or have I been brainwashed my whole life dealing with horses thinking this....

 

[TinyTrigger]

, this horse was trying to kill him and if he wouldn't have done what he has done with the horse (and risk his life), this horse might have put quite a number of people in the hospital and even worse, he might have killed some too.

Really, where is the evidence of that? I wonder if we are all talking about the same animal?

I think you underestimate the knowledge of most of the people on here.

What AmyMay said. Exactly. Do not underestimate or patronise the members here.

That video is awful. What amazes me is the hypocrisy. If another trainer, 'natural' or not, had a video of such treatment online the outcry would be huge - especially from PP or other 'natural' followers. However, somehow if PP does it it's fine! That disgusts me more.

I was fairly recently subjected to a total witch hunt by a NH group for giving a lazt pony a smack on the bum. And yet tying up and using a gum twitch is ok. Righto. That seems reasonable

 

[Bojangles]

Shutterfort- I still see this as abuse tieing up a leg and useing a gum line!!!! Like many people on here who had/got head shy and bride shyness time and patince is the best thing to gain the trust in the horse!!! Maybe I should of tied my horse leg up as he was very beaten in the pastd which had caused the head shyness just to save time!!!!! I wouldnt dare use this way on any animals. It's a shame the horse had gone though all of this for what just to get a bridle on when the groom was able to do this yes it took time but she done it!!!!! I wonder what mental damage it has done to him now!!

Dont say there wont be any because there will be,maybe pp should experince the same treatment as what the horse has with they fears!!!!

I am a open person who looks at different things and will cernty not be following this load of s*** !!!!!!!!

 

[Sarah1]

If I would have scared the **** out of you like you claim he did with this horse, would you be willing to stand with me in a relaxed way and even enjoy being with me? I don't think so

I read a very interesting article in a popular equestrian magazine many years ago about how horses, following extensive bad treatment from humans, can actually become quieter and more accepting rather than more aggressive and unyielding - they basically turn into robots and become numb. People often mistake this as submission and I suppose in a way it is but it's a more negative type of submission and not the sort of thing I think any proper horseperson would desire.

I'm not saying this is or isn't the case with Catwalk but it's something to think about...

ETS - Pat had food at the end didn't he when Catwalk seemed very 'interested' in being around him...?

 

[spaniel]

I truly think that Pat and Linda totally underestimate the experience and intelligence of riders, breeders and owners in the UK.

We are not, on the whole, impressed with overt showmanship.

It hasnt worked in the USA guys.....it aint gonna work here.

Please, give it up and find something else to do.

 

[KS1]

I still think it is pretty poor that the vet said that catwalk was not to be used the following day but that PP was still allowed to work on him behind the scenes. It should have been one or the other IMO if it was physical injury that the vet was making the decision for.

It keeps being mentioned that the vet saw small cuts in Catwalks gum line, can someone point me on the right direction as to where this is officially stated and not just a post from someone on here.

It has been mentioned on FB that the vet did not find any such cuts so before I make any judgement I'd like to be proven which statement is correct.

That's if anyone can be bothered, something tells me not.... but as its being highlighted on here I'd like those that keep mentioning it to show me where the vet reports on this

 

[Weezy]

QR:

Oh FFS, please stop with the whole *the stallion is a killer* line, it is really beginning to pee me off. ANY horse, even the cute pony in your garden is a possible killer, jeez, I am a possibly killer, doesn't mean I am going to go and kill someone, gargh.

Catwalk was, IMO, the epitome of well behaved - at any time he could have kicked out with his forelegs, but he did not, rear legs, but did not - in fact the only thing he did do was rear to get himself away from the man who was making him feel uncomfortable!

 

[Caledonia]

If I would have scared the **** out of you like you claim he did with this horse, would you be willing to stand with me in a relaxed way and even enjoy being with me? I don't think so.

Have you never heard of Stockholm Syndrome ?

As for the rest of your post, if you thought that horse was trying to kill PP, then no wonder the Parelli worshippers claim he's turned rounds loads of 'killers'.

Complete and utter stupidity - I have never read such ignorant claptrap.

 

[ester]

maybe... if pat thought his life was in danger he could have put a hat on ... you know.. if he thought it was that bad.

KS1 where would the vet officially report on that? I don't see that it would necessarily be made public written knowledge as far as the vet is concerned.

 

[spaniel]

Has anyone clarified the ownership of Catwalk....is he in fact actually owned by Robert or is there a syndicate/owner/leasor somewhere?

 

[JenJ]

maybe... if pat thought his life was in danger he could have put a hat on ... you know.. if he thought it was that bad.

*snorts*

If it weren't for the sorry subject, this thread would actually be hilarious.

 

[Cluny]

I read a very interesting article in a popular equestrian magazine many years ago about how horses, following extensive bad treatment from humans, can actually become quieter and more accepting rather than more aggressive and unyielding - they basically turn into robots and become numb. People often mistake this as submission and I suppose in a way it is but it's a more negative type of submission and not the sort of thing I think any proper horseperson would desire.

I'm not saying this is or isn't the case with Catwalk but it's something to think about...

ETS - Pat had food at the end didn't he when Catwalk seemed very 'interested' in being around him...?

This is so true Sarah1. A horse's way of coping with abuse is to 'shut down' they retreat into themselves, it is a sort of self preservation, it's also seen in humans too. I have seen quite a few horses like this and have owned a few (one was imported from a Polish SJ yard, I won't tell you what they did to him but it was horrific) and my heart goes out to them.

I find the best way to deal with them, after having had them thoroughly checked for any pain issues, is with baby steps. I work hard on gaining their trust, which takes as long as it takes, and then I start with small things and work up from there. If a horse tells me that it's had enough or doesn't understand what I'm asking of it, then I listen and either I stop what I'm doing and do something else, or I go a few steps back in it's education, because if the horse can't cope with what I'm asking it to do, then there is a gap in the work that I've done beforehand, which I need to go back and correct.

I find PP's actions with Catwalk thoroughly repulsive, I also find them even more reprehensible as he did it in front of an audience, so that those who were impressionable went away thinking well if 'he' did it, the great PP, then it must be OK.

I'm sure the gum line strap will soon be available from the Parelli shop for the reasonable price of £150 very soon, so you too can try this at home!!!!

 

[AengusOg]

I read a very interesting article in a popular equestrian magazine many years ago about how horses, following extensive bad treatment from humans, can actually become quieter and more accepting rather than more aggressive and unyielding - they basically turn into robots and become numb. People often mistake this as submission and I suppose in a way it is but it's a more negative type of submission and not the sort of thing I think any proper horseperson would desire.

I'm not saying this is or isn't the case with Catwalk but it's something to think about...

Bad handling/treatment of horses is invariably met with resistance from the horse. That should be the handler's signal that too much pressure is unacceptable to the horse, and the handler should modify his approach.

With PNH, the trend seems to be for the handler to increase the pressure and become confrontational, rather than seek an alternative. When the horse is forced to become compliant, and is denied relief, his only recource is to switch off and become resigned to his inability to get away.

That's why PNH-trained horses very often have that far-away, empty look in their eyes as they go through the motions of their circus training.

 

[soloequestrian]

It's called 'learned helplessness'.

 

[Natch]

Ponydentist

Ifg you are crazy enough to think that he would wilfully abuse a horse.....tell me your reasons right here and now.

Maybe his ego is bigger than we previously thought.

Pat Parelli....like him or loathe him...is a MASTER HORSEMAN of this world

I would say with the recent evidence that this is opinion not fact

He does not need to comit professional suicide in such a manner.

I agree. He could have approached this horse so differently.

There are people in this world whos "horse life" extends to owning a few horse and having a few horsey friends and no further than that.....and such people are in no position whatsoever to criticise one of the worlds greatest horsemen because they are just simply not in the same league.

This is hero worship, surely? "he can't be wrong because he's famous and done lots of good things. We minions can't see hypocricy or cruelty because we aren't as experienced as him". I don't agree.

EVERY single thing that he did to that horse on that night was done for a reason with a rationale learned, honed and practiced for years with absolute proven results....And i mean everything that was done.

And you a minion like the rest of us? Or are you an amazing superhero horseman too?


Shutterfoto:

It's very simple though, this horse was trying to kill him and if he wouldn't have done what he has done with the horse (and risk his life), this horse might have put quite a number of people in the hospital and even worse, he might have killed some too.

Ok so I wasn't there, but yours is the ONLY report which says this horse was trying to kill him. The video evidence (cropped as it may be) also shows no evidence that the horse was trying to kill him. Please could you come back and tell us what the signs were that the horse was trying to kill him?

he did it was with precision and premeditation, that is a very clear sign of domination, a bit like a kungfu master in action, and the only thing that was of interest to him was getting rid of Pat, either alive or not alive.

As above, thats absolutely not what anybody (either pro or anti PP) else has reported, nor is it shown in either pro or anti videos. What is shown by both is a horse trying to get AWAY from PP.

In all fairness, having watched all the relevant videos, I don't see any evidence that it is as bad as I first thought, however I maintain that PP was a true hypocryte and furthermore should remove any association with "natural horsemanship" from all the parelli branded stuff. I would also add that not only could the "gum twitch" cause injury, but the rope around the horse's leg is seen as being around the back of his knee. Those who know a little about the anatomy of a horse's leg know that there are tendons, ligaments and vital veins and arteries in this area, running close to the surface of the skin and not protected by fat or muscle. I ask you, is it really a good idea to run a rope (with what, 1" diameter) around that part of a horse's anatomy, knowing that it is likely to have a huge amount of pressure exerted on it if the horse resists? not to mention the very real possibility of rope burns. I still have the scar on my arm from a parelli rope burn 8 months ago when I tried to catch someone else's horse who had got loose.

All naturally? All for the greater good? Give it a rest.

 

[MontyandZoom]

Erm 'trying to kill him'

What a load of b0ll0cks! If a horse tries to kill you, there is VERY little you could do to stop it!!!!!!!

All I can see is a very frightened horse trying to remove itself from a very distressing situation. Do you think that if they let him loose, the horse would attack PP or run away??!

 

[martlin]

Just been musing a bit, wondering now if somebody could tell me...
Catwalk has 'extreme' bridling issues - to my mind, that would mean nearly impossible to bridle, either afraid of the headpiece or the bit.
So, they obviously managed to put a halter on him as they brought him into the arena, no?
As far as I could see from the poor quality of the videos, there was no major issues with putting the gum line in...
So what IS the bridling problem? WHAT makes it so horrendously difficult that it justifies submitting the poor creature to hours of 'curing' in front of the public? Tying it down, twitching, berating it etc?

 

[lillith]

I am not massively experienced with difficult horses but I have worked with antsy riding school ponies who don't like being bridled and will shake their heads when you try to handle their ears and even rear if they are pushed far enough. Where they trying to kill me? what would you have thought if you had seen me wretling them into their bridles with a gum line and a leg tied up?

I really did not see any agression in the clips, the horse was trying to get away and unhappy but at no point made any forwards agressive movements.

On and I have worked with a few stallions, some young. You know what? the most difficult horse I have ever worked with was a mare. Dangerous too. The stallions were sweet as pie, as long as I asked them politely they would respond politely. If they didn't a growl was enough. The only one different was a highland who needed firm handling. I suppose I am evil though for booting in the chest an obnoxious tank because I am not a 'great horseman'. If I was I could have stuck a gum line on him and never been stood on again and it would have been fine.

 

[MrsD]

This is what was written by the PNH team after the demo (taken from nh dg)

Our challenging horse lived up to its billing tonight at the Royal Featival of The Horse demo. Catwalk, an extremely Left-Brain stallion showed us his wonderful spirit and demonstrated that his unwillingness to bridle hasn't been created during the 8 weeks that Robert Whitaker has owned him but is clearly due to many years of fear of being bridled due to the lack of a basic foundation training.

We ran 45 minutes over and a couple of folks were upset at what they think they saw, saying they may post on YouTube. We all have nothing to worry about except misunderstanding. Pat stopped at an appropriate time in the training process when he saw a breakthrough and preserved Catwalk's dignity, which is more important than getting the bridle on tonight.

Tomorrow morning we meet again with Robert to continue Catwalk's foundation training to enable him to begin to trust humans.

We'll keep you posted on Catwalk's progress over the next few weeks which will help those that don't understand see the fruits of passive persistence.

 

[skint1]

I have no time for Parelli. I haven't read all the pages in this thread and, due to my only having primitive dial-up, I cannot spare the time to watch the videos.

However, it seems to me that Mr P has, again, in his efforts to amaze the world and sell his wares, gone and bitten off more than he can chew.

My seven year old son already knows that there are no quick fixes for the unfortunate horses in this world for whom an association with humans has meant pain, fear, and coercion. He has watched me work with horses and recognises that time, patience, and repetition are necessary tools in the horse-training box, and that haste, force, and impatience cause problems.

There is no way that this horse of RW's could have been 'cured' of such an obviously deep-seated problem within the time constraints of a demonstration, so why did he take it on under those circumstances?

PNH has done itself much damage recently. The eyes of the world are upon it, and not for the reasons hoped for by Mr and Mrs P. The PNH control room tells us that all is well within the empire, and that the non-believers failing to see the bigger picture will not topple them from their pedestal which is amply supported by the adoration of its homage-paying supporters.

We'll see.

Wish I knew how to use the emoticons on this site, but very much in agreement with this. If someone had told me I was going to an NH demo I would not have expected to see those particular methods being used. From watching the video it was almost like a demo of what to do to get a bridle on when you're under some pressure and haven't got time to deal with it properly.

I guess Catwalk has a hole in his basic training. I assume he's talented or the Whittakers wouldn't own him, wouldn't it have been a wiser use of resources to have a professional address the problem more thoroughly over a longer period of time? I know there isn't much time in serious competition yards for that kind of thing but it might have been more worth it in the end imho.

 

[Kaylum]

having read what these gadgets actually do i.e. the gum line which I have never seen before I am shocked and that horse is a damm brave or more like very scared one letting anyone bridle him if he think he will get that treatment.

 

[ShowJumperBeckii]

i was wondering whats the fuss?
watched the video on youtube and now im P*** off
group on facebook about it too

its ment to be natural so why cant they keep it that way

 

[Tempi]

To be honest, ive watched most of the videos and i dont see what the fuss is about. The horse did get a bit upset, but i didnt see anything as dramatic as some people have commented in this post. Ive used the rope around the back of the leg thing on my horse as she used to be a proper pain for the dentist and my EDT suggested we tried it. Worked wonders on her although she wasnt particularly impressed to start with. Im not cruel to any of my horses and would never do anything to hurt any of them. I really dont see the problem here...........

 

[Elsbells]

Thank you at last a Parelli follower attempting to explain rather than assume we don't understand. If Rob is now competing this horse I assume he has had a bridle on in the past has he had any fatalities due to this horse in the past using non Parelli methods?

I will agree to completely disagree.

Well said!!

 

[CinnamonChristmasCookie]

'misunderstanding'

Really? Again with the 'you lot just don't understand what we were doing' nonsense. Yeah, clearly we're all so thick we can't get it and they are therefore special. Whatever!

 

[JanetGeorge]

It's very simple though, this horse was trying to kill him and if he wouldn't have done what he has done with the horse (and risk his life), this horse might have put quite a number of people in the hospital and even worse, he might have killed some too.

I wasn't t the demo so can only comment on the various videos I've seen. NONE of them show the stallion trying to kill Pat! I've worked with two stallions who HAVE tried to kill me (one had allegedly killed 3 stud grooms in his life!) - and they didn't behave like that! They came right at you, mouths open, ears flat back, SCREAMING in rage!

One (an old stallion)had definitely been abused and had scars to prove it -the other was an ill-disciplined 3 year old from 'bad' bloodlines. The youngster was finally gelded - the old stallion could be handled with considerable care and tactbutwas NEVER 'safe'! Either - on PP's performance inthat video - would have had him on the floor and NOT let him up!

 

[Natch]

I've worked with two stallions who HAVE tried to kill me (one had allegedly killed 3 stud grooms in his life!) - and they didn't behave like that! They came right at you, mouths open, ears flat back, SCREAMING in rage!

Agree. I heard an account (well, several people's accounts) of a heavy horse breeder whose stallion tried to kill him (daft bugger didn't wear any safety clothing, not even gloves, and was teasing a mare with a frustrated stallion at the time) was that the stallion screamed at him and picked him up by his shoulder. (someone else on this thread cites a similar incident). The fact that this bloke went and got a metal bar and attacked the horse with it half a dozen times isn't exactly an example of good practice either, but my point is I don't think there would be ANY DOUBT by ANYONE if the stallion meant to harm PP, whatever his intentions.

 

[spaniel]

Thank you Janet. Voice of experience and common sense.

The levels of total ignorance shown in some of these pro threads is astonishing. Anyone who has genuinely seen aggression in stallions will know that it is terrifying to watch and unlike any other horse behaviour.