Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

Do horses purposely set out to kill people, as in, was Catwalk thinking "I'm gonna choke that fella on his own mustache if he comes near me again!" or is it a case of the horse acting out of fear or under the influence of hormones and a person being in the wrong place/wrong time?
 
Tempi – I actually posted yesterday about using force on a horse when needed – I think peoples issue is that Parelli has become somewhat like a cult and is often practiced by very novice horsepeople, and the worry is what affect this will have for horsemanship in general.

Considering many cant seem to see the difference between a scared horse and dangerous, out to kill horse, I don’t hold much hope.
 
I would just like to say that the worst of what went on that night has sadly as yet, not been shown on youtube. When PP was wrestleing the stallion to the ground and pulling as hard as he could on the gumline and forceing Catwalks face to the floor, all eyes were on the shocking sight and I doubt that there was one person there in the audiance able to reach for a camera. I wish I could bring it alive for you all as it is quite simply unbelievable unless you had been there, so much so, that both my friend and I didn't even look at each other but sat transfixed in disbelief. We were absolutley transfixed. Later, we confessed at the time that we had both questioned our gut feelings. It couldn't be happening, there must be a good reason, we wern't seeing it??? And all because this man was THE horseman,.... someone my friend revvered and a man I'd admired although never seen.

It did happen. We did see it. And I was sickened.

Yes I was there when the grinning PP and head hung RW were confronted, but I know they just looked down on us as silly little women who had a few ponies as pets and were not to be taken seriously or respected, not like the great Pat Parelli and the wonderfully talented and clever Robert Whittaker deserve.

Just give them their money back and send them on their way, back to their smallholdings their fat ponies, cats and chickens and get on with the business of making money.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!
 
R2R said:
Did noone speak up WHILST the demo was going on? As in, shout?
Click to expand...

This is what puzzles me to be honest. Whilst the BHS were not there in any official capacity - the show organisers were. Did no one go directly to them and demand it be stopped.


Anyway I've had a very swift response from the BHS, who have confirmed that the vet did inspect the horse and would not let him be used in the demonstration again.

It would seem that the incident is being investigated.
 
Well thats good.

I blinking hate Parelli but think retrospect is a wonderful thing - I know for sure if I was there and it is as bad as people have said I would have left kicking and screaming standing on my chair calling the man cruel - not waiting for it to end then having a chat with the mustached wonder himself.
 
Slightly off on a tangent, but isn't it possible, indeed likely, that this horse has a medical problem such as aural plaques that makes him so unhappy to be bridled. He doesn't seem aggressive in the videos, just unwilling to let them at his ears! I'd have him checked out by a vet before letting anyone try to change his behaviour.....

And I'm no Parelli fan (that video of Linda and the blind horse is unacceptable) but actually I didn't see much off with the Stoneleigh videos either. Don't like their whole marketing to inexperienced horsepeople stick, but this is turning into a typical HHO witchhunt "what should I be appalled by today" type thing. :mad::p
 
amymay said:
Anyway I've had a very swift response from the BHS, who have confirmed that the vet did inspect the horse and would not let him be used in the demonstration again.

It would seem that the incident is being investigated.
Click to expand...

I would have heckled him! Although to be honest I know the feeling of sitting feeling annoyed and confused whilst you watch a horse in distress, not doing anything because a) the person is supposed to be a pro, and b) you're waiting for it all to make sense with an explaination :(

Amymay do you think there is any point in the rest of us emailing the BHS, or any other societies, or would we just be innundating them when they are already on the case? I suppose the important people who should contact them are those who were there.

Before I saw your post I PM'd BHS_Lee, asking him to read this thread, and advise us on if the BHS is investigating, and if there is anything any of us can do. I have also asked him to comment on this thread if he feels he is able to, but we must respect the fact that the BHS is a professional organisation who may not wish to comment until they know the full facts and both sides of a story.
 
skint1 said:
Do horses purposely set out to kill people, as in, was Catwalk thinking "I'm gonna choke that fella on his own mustache if he comes near me again!"
Click to expand...

On RARE occasions, yes, and it's unmistakable. See it once and you will have nightmares.

Catwalk (at least not in the videos I saw) was no where near that place. At first he was saying "I don't want my face and ears messed with" And it looked like PP actually got him to accept that.

IMHO he should have quit there.

An experienced horseperson would have realized that significant progress had been made and could be built upon in the future.

But no, ego prevailed and that bridle was going on that horse no matter what and events spun out of control.

At that point the demo became dangerous because Catwalk wanted OUT of the situation. I at least never saw him act with intent to harm but a handler or spectator certainly could have been hurt had they gotten in the horse's way.

In addition to the unnecessary distress caused to the horse my main objection to a demo like this the fact that some of the hero worshipers don't understand (Oh, that's what they say about us) that what they saw was DANGEROUS and try this out at home.
 
Halfstep said:
Don't like their whole marketing to inexperienced horsepeople stick, but this is turning into a typical HHO witchhunt "what should I be appalled by today" type thing. :mad::p
Click to expand...

I don't see it as a witch hunt at all and it's not an 'H & H' thing. Every horse forum I have looked at in the past few days has threads about this.
 
What I don't understand is that one post said Robert had left the horse with Pat for further 'training?' and another says he is now out competing at shows(note the plural).
 
Red30563 said:
I don't see it as a witch hunt at all and it's not an 'H & H' thing. Every horse forum I have looked at in the past few days has threads about this.
Click to expand...

Red I have checked 6 international sites with intelligent discussion forums (in the same vein as this one) and without exception the reaction to what happened has been the same. Both from anti PP and from followers of PP the majority are shocked and horrified to hear whats been going on here.

On the US sites there has been a major turning away from P and LP and thats not just as a reaction to this latest incident, its been going on a while now and opinion seems to be that they are losing ground over there which is why they are buddying up to the BHS and having a big marketing push over here.
 
ester said:
maybe... if pat thought his life was in danger he could have put a hat on ... you know.. if he thought it was that bad.

KS1 where would the vet officially report on that? I don't see that it would necessarily be made public written knowledge as far as the vet is concerned.
Click to expand...

I only asked as people seem happy to post that the vet saw cuts, where did they hear this, was it gossip or actual wording from the vet. I get fed up with people adding there two bits worth when they do not have the facts.

Which is why I have asked them to back what they are sayins by showing me where this is stated and not just from another poster but from a reliable source. Unless I read this I don't believe it.

It's like getting a newspaper and reading loads of hearsay then next day reading an apology from the paper for incorrect footage.

It's amazing how so mnay people add things that were not even mentioned or is true, but if this claim is true then I'd like to see it from the horses mouth so to speak and not from gossip threads. Then I will beleive it.
 
I have contacted the BHS and am awaiting a reply.Shouldn't we all also complain to the BSJA.The sight of one of their top riders standing by and watching his horse being treated like this is not, surely, the image they wish to convey.
 
amymay said:
Anyway I've had a very swift response from the BHS, who have confirmed that the vet did inspect the horse and would not let him be used in the demonstration again.
It would seem that the incident is being investigated.
Click to expand...

Where is the proof of this statement, so many statements but nothing to back them up, so unless shown otherwise I don't believe it.
 
ah ok, might I suggest you email the BHS yourself then? amymay cant really let everyone have her email log in so they can see it
 
I emailed the BHS - this is their reply.

Dear All,



Thank you for your emails to the BHS regarding the recent Parelli demonstration at the Festival of the Horse. It probably won’t surprise you to learn that we have received an extremely large number of emails concerning this and I apologise for the fact that I cannot respond to each one of them individually. I hope that this group email will contain the information that you asked for (please note you have been blind copied in on this so your email address will not be seen by other recipients).



I think I need to make it clear that nobody was officially representing the BHS at the demonstration. This means that we have no first hand knowledge of what went on and are having to rely on accounts from others. I am aware that there is video footage in existence but what I have seen is poor quality and it is quite hard to determine exactly what was going on. What I can tell you is that when a concerned individual made a complaint to a member of BHS staff on our stand at the Festival, that BHS staff member arranged for a vet to inspect Catwalk. As a consequence of this Catwalk was not allowed to take part in any subsequent demos. There is no more that could have been done at the time as we were not the show organisers and had no specific remit over what went on. The member of staff concerned is not part of the welfare team but acted exceptionally quickly and took absolutely the most appropriate action available to her.



Further than this I cannot comment on this particular incident. As I assume you will understand it is not (for many reasons) appropriate or useful to discuss individual ongoing welfare investigations.



What I can say is that the BHS recognises that there is room for many different schools of horsemanship. Whichever one an individual chooses to follow it is important to retain an open mind and be receptive to other ideas. However, whichever methods are employed we do not consider it acceptable to cause pain, fear or unnecessary distress to a horse. We are also very much anti the use of unnecessary equipment and would stress the importance of maintaining human and equine safety as the paramount concerns at all times.



If you would like to discuss this further please do not hesitate to contact me directly although please bear in mind that I am out of the office at meetings until Friday.



Yours



Lee



Lee Hackett

Senior Executive, Welfare

Tel: 01926 707804
 
I think it's telling that the only defenses that have been made of all this fall into some narrow categories.

1. "You don't understand what you saw." Patronizing and unhelpful since those offering it admit they can't explain it either (but accept it because they realize they haven't reached the appropriate "level" to do so).

2. The end justifies the means. This has never been convincing to me anyway but especially not when those means appear to go against the methods put forth by the P's as correct (not using force or mechanics).

3. You see worse things at shows among hunter/jumper/dressage/pony club (insert your discipline of choice) every day. Again, not convincing and pointless. No one is watching a demo of a child beating her pony in an expectation that they will learn something and frankly, if I saw someone on the back lot of a show treating a horse as Catwalk was treated, I would report it to show authorities.

4. The video didn't look that bad. This depends upon point of view. Since the demo was marketed as an example of NH techniques, which are supposed to offer a more natural approach that works with the horse's instincts and understanding, I would call it a flat failure. Plus the eyewitness accounts and the vet's refusal to allow the horse to be used the following day speak to more severe use.

5. It's better than the horse going to the dogs. Nowhere have I seen any indication that this would have happened if the horse continued to be difficult to bridle. More likely, the grooms would have continued to spend 10 minutes working to get a bridle on before a competition.

6. THE HORSE WAS TRYING TO KILL HIM!!! IT WAS A LIFE AND DEATH STRUGGLE!!! MAN AGAINST BEAST!!! HE WAS LUCKY TO GET OUT ALIVE!!!

I think I'll just leave that last alone. :rolleyes:
 
I've never met a Parelli person so in general I stay away from these threads. I did read a few magazine articles and thought it looked interesting, but my interest waned rapidly when I realised I'd have to part with £££ if I wanted to learn any more.

However, having seen the Linda video, the Catwalk video and the 'loading' video, I can honestly say the man is an absolute moron. I've never seen a less effective way of dealing with a problem loader than twirling a rope at it and making it jump the ramp repeatedly. And as for Linda battering the one-eyed horse round the head....

It amazes me that anyone can describe this guy as a wonderful horseman. He's clueless.

As for the Parelli followers, it would be funny if it wasn't faintly disturbing. The way they all say the same thing - use the same phrases - you'd be forgiven for thinking it was one person with ten usernames. And yet they insist they aren't brainwashed!! I find it almost incomprehensible that people actually fall for this guy and his bullsh*t.
 
KS1 said:
I only asked as people seem happy to post that the vet saw cuts, where did they hear this, was it gossip or actual wording from the vet. I get fed up with people adding there two bits worth when they do not have the facts.

Which is why I have asked them to back what they are sayins by showing me where this is stated and not just from another poster but from a reliable source. Unless I read this I don't believe it.
Click to expand...


This is from earlier on in the thread: Post 600 OldRed

We then decided to speak to PP and ask him why he was doing this to Catwalk. We went to the back of the arena and when PP came out asked to see inside Catwalk’s mouth. He peeled back his top lip and there was bright red lesion. After putting forward our views for 10 to 15 minutes (!) and yes, we were now incensed, PP apologised for upsetting us and asked what could he do? We all said, please, just never do this to another horse ever again. The reports of the other posters who were there with PP are correct. We were then given our money back.

The next day we went to the BHS stand and asked if a vet could look at Catwalk as he was due to be used again in a demo and we wanted him checked. The BHS phoned the organisers (Festival of the Horse) who arranged for a vet to look at Catwalk. Within a hour or so the vet reported back via the BHS rep that he had examined Catwalk, yes, there was a lesion and that Catwalk would not be used in the demo the next day. (Alice Bell, Festival of the Horse 02476 858276 and Andrea Jackman, BHS 01686 627050).
 
Sit_Up said:
Within a hour or so the vet reported back via the BHS rep that he had examined Catwalk, yes, there was a lesion and that Catwalk would not be used in the demo the next day. (Alice Bell, Festival of the Horse 02476 ****** and Andrea Jackman, BHS 01686 ******).
Click to expand...

Might I suggest that for kindness sake, people would be better off emailing these people rather than ringing them? Or even better, accepting the copied and pasted email that has been posted on here?

They must be innundated. Let these poor people get on with their jobs! :)
 
R2R said:
Tempi – I actually posted yesterday about using force on a horse when needed – I think peoples issue is that Parelli has become somewhat like a cult and is often practiced by very novice horsepeople, and the worry is what affect this will have for horsemanship in general.

Considering many cant seem to see the difference between a scared horse and dangerous, out to kill horse, I don’t hold much hope.
Click to expand...

Ah ok, ive not read all the posts as i do have work to do, lol!!
 
KS1 said:
Where is the proof of this statement, so many statements but nothing to back them up, so unless shown otherwise I don't believe it.
Click to expand...

KS1 I have had an email from the BHS stating that the horse was seen by a vet and not allowed to be part of the demonstration. I'm not sure it is permissible for me to post it on here. But if you correspond directly with them, Lee Hackett is sending out responses very quickly.
 
shutterfoto said:
Hi everyone, I especially registered to this forum so that I could answer to this thread.
I understand that some people are appaled or disgusted by what they saw and do not believe that Pat and Linda are true horsemen. I however have a completely different opinion and would at least like to share it with you. I don't really care if this changes your mind or not, you are free to believe whatever you want, but I believe in them, all the way!
Here is what I experienced:
Pat usually always comments while he is playing with or teaching horses so it helps the spectator to make sense of what it is he is doing.
This time was very very different. I don't know how many of you actually have experience with Stallions to start with (like some stallions actually kill sick foals by biting their necks, it's hard but it's nature in it's simplest form, survival of the fittest), but this particular stallion was in the top 3 of Pat's most difficult horses he has ever met in his lifelong carreer. This lead to him to put music on so he could concentrate on the horse rather than on the public. Of course this gave a gap for the spectators and created room for misinterpretation.
It's very simple though, this horse was trying to kill him and if he wouldn't have done what he has done with the horse (and risk his life), this horse might have put quite a number of people in the hospital and even worse, he might have killed some too.
People tend to forget that horses can be extremely dangerous when overconfident or when scared, young kids get killed every year by horses, same with adults.
At a certain stage, horses can become so sick of a certain treatement and they simply go on strike, that's what this horse did. I read that a lot of you were saying he was scared, but if you read the signs, the body language of the horse, you will see that he was not scared (though difficult to see as the video has a very bad quality), he was an over condifent horse on adrenaline, he hardly moved during the whole thing and when he did it was with precision and premeditation, that is a very clear sign of domination, a bit like a kungfu master in action, and the only thing that was of interest to him was getting rid of Pat, either alive or not alive.
What Pat was doing, was not scaring the horse, but convincing him that he would persist and not give up like many other people would have. He tried different techniques to get into the mind of the horse rather than to his body. Some of the techniques did not work, but in the end he managed to get into the horses mind and was able to convince him.
If you look at the very short video of the work that was done after friday you'll see that this horse is nowhere near scared of Pat, on the contrary, this horse is very relaxed and loves being with him. And not to mention, they are able to bridle him now easily and he even won a competition this weekend!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j25pS6ixWk&feature=related

If I would have scared the **** out of you like you claim he did with this horse, would you be willing to stand with me in a relaxed way and even enjoy being with me? I don't think so.

Kind Regards all
Click to expand...

Are you on drugs?
 
Ziggy_ said:
However, having seen the Linda video, the Catwalk video and the 'loading' video, I can honestly say the man is an absolute moron. I've never seen a less effective way of dealing with a problem loader than twirling a rope at it and making it jump the ramp repeatedly. And as for Linda battering the one-eyed horse round the head....

It amazes me that anyone can describe this guy as a wonderful horseman. He's clueless.
Click to expand...

I can't believe the videos I have seen today. I never really have been interested in him and his 'theories'. Quite a few people have been telling me I should do the natural horsemanship thing with one I am bringing on the the moment as they had done some with him in the past.

I can tell you now he is learning far more with me than he had with the NH method. I don't hit him, I always use positive reinforcements and I would never ever dream of hitting him over the head or with a rope. I love horses I could never hurt them and scare them like I have seen in the videos! :(:mad:
 
cinammontoast said:
PMSL! Hello hun!


Where exactly was the horse trying to 'kill' Pat, Shutterfoto? The bit where he backed away from him?! Get real.
Click to expand...

Hello!
Sorry, I had to mince over from the fluffy side for this one!
I cannot believe the level of brainwashing and blind acceptance going on with these people!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top