Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

Parelli devotees may say I dont understand, after reading and viewing this tread and associated videos, the only thing I understand is that I would not let that man, or his wife within a mile of our head shy, difficult to bridle ex racer. It has taken us years to undo the harm that previous ear twitching has caused, and yes the poor girl still has her issues, but I believe our mare and the people who handle her have reached an understanding, its called trust in each other.

On a lighter note this has got to be one of the most viewed/posted on threads I have ever seen, whats the betting it makes/doesnt make H&H top ten this week:)
 
PolarSkye said:
See, I just don't understand this . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918

I really don't see the link between what PP was doing (swinging that rope at the mare's shoulder) and what he was asking from the horse (go into the trailer) . . . I'm no great horsewoman, but I saw a confused horse. It seemed to me that he kept "asking" the same question over and over again with little or no effect on the what/how the horse behaved (aside from avoidance).

If I ask Kali a question and it becomes clear that he isn't responding in the way that I want either because he's being stubborn, or scared, or because he's confused (or just plain "stuck"), it's my responsibility to figure out another way to ask the question. Surely, asking the same question in the same way over and over and always getting avoidance just teaches avoidance? Or am I being really thick? And what about rewarding "the try" . . . and giving the horse time to have a think . . . until tomorrow perhaps?

Really, really confused.

P
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Very good point.
The Parelli 'system' seems to encourage different levels of pressure. Start off at 1 (light pressure) and increase the pressure until you get a response. Leaves things open for abuse in my opinion. If the horse isn't understanding what is being asked, find another way of asking as polarskye says.
It's a bit like shouting in English at someone who doesn't understand the language. No matter how loud you shout it won't help.
 
My current horse was difficult to bridle - probably because a misguided soul tried some of the techniques in question.

Odd then that as a tree hugging fluffy bunny I can now bridle her without any problem at all. And no not once did I resort to any kind of force/aggression/bullying. I didn't use treats either.

Want to know how? Wait I'll make a DVD and you can have one for a squillion quid.

But the truth is there is no money to be made from a bit of time and patience. Makes for a b. boring video too..........
 
winterwood said:
Very good point.
The Parelli 'system' seems to encourage different levels of pressure. Start off at 1 (light pressure) and increase the pressure until you get a response. Leaves things open for abuse in my opinion. If the horse isn't understanding what is being asked, find another way of asking as polarskye says.
It's a bit like shouting in English at someone who doesn't understand the language. No matter how loud you shout it won't help.
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I can't speak for the parelli system, only for others which are derived from the same roots.

The phases of pressure are nothing more and nothing less than somebody riding using their legs or voice aids. Compare it to me whispering to you "Winterwood, look over there". You don't respond to me, either because you couldn't hear me, or because you weren't paying attention to me, or maybe I was speaking French. If I don't ever raise my voice above a whisper, or change the language I am speaking, I will be reinforcing the response of not responding to my voice.

Most of us would agree that we always work towards getting the horse to respond to the lightest, but will go up to a kick or shout if we need to. I think it is important to be willing to go there if necessary, otherwise the horse will not take you seriously, and depending on its charachter (or horsenality ;)) may take the pee out of you.

A horse who doesn't understand should, in my opinion, and the opinion of others who practice NH, be rewarded for the try, whether its right or wrong, at least he is trying to understand and to work for not against you. Its just a fine balance between rewarding the try and inadvertedly teaching the wrong response.

If a horse can't even try for you, or isn't trying the right thing, you can ask in a different way, or break something down into its components.

Much the same as many people who aren't NH would do :D
 
I must admit that I had never heard of or seen a gum line until this thread, i hope I never again. It is barbaric. I am apalled that anyone who claims to love horses thinks that this method and the leg thing is natural or acceptable.
I fail to see at what point in any of the video clips Catwalk was trying to kill PP, if anyone truly thinks this then it is they who do not understand equine body language. The horse was trying to escape him.

I am not anti anything, i have said before that it was a lady with parelli who helped me with my mare at the beginning. But the parelli that we did with this lady was absolutely nothing like the parelli I have seen over the past year from the great man and his wife. I would never have stood for a second and allowed my horse to be treated like this.

If Catwalk was one of the top 3 most difficult horses he has ever dealt with, then surely it should have been done over a longer period of time and not at a major equestrian event as a spectator sport.
 
ester said:
KS1 did you see amymays post re her reply from the BHS?
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No I haven't, can I make it clear here I am not taking sides, even with those on the Parelli site I will beleive what they say when I see the proof.

I guess I am so used to people making statements on forums that are totally fabricated thats its hard to fathom the truth from the hearsay.
 
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chestnuttymare said:
Catwalk was one of the top 3 most difficult horses
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I agree with you that gum line et al are barbaric and have no place in the modern world.

But it has just occurred to me - if Catwalk is in the top 3 difficult for the great Mr P then perhaps he just ain't all that experienced after all.....

After all true experience is more than just a numbers game - whether that be numbers of horses dealt with or squillions of dollars gained in the marketing of dubious techniques.
 
KS1 said:
No I haven't, can I make ti clear here I am not taking sides, even with those on the Parelli site I will beleive what they say when I see the proof.

I guess I am so used to people making statements on forums that are totally fabricated thats its hard to fathom the truth from the hearsay.
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I wasn't comfortable posting my email reply from the BHS - however another poster has a few pages back, and they are the same........
 
KS1 said:
No I haven't, can I make ti clear here I am not taking sides, even with those on the Parelli site I will beleive what they say when I see the proof.

I guess I am so used to people making statements on forums that are totally fabricated thats its hard to fathom the truth from the hearsay.
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I'm sorry, I have to ask:
If you have so little trust and find it so difficult to believe what others are posting, why do you bother with forums at all?
 
I was very confused by the loading clip, was he trying to teach the mare to jump the ramp?!
I didn't feel the mare understood at all what he wanted because he wasn't clear himself. What does standing hitting - sorry - swinging the rope at your horse do?
Also, the trailer he was using looked very rickety and not inviting for the mare at all.

Going back to Catwalk, so now we are to believe that he used a horse that was trying to kill him for a public demo? If he is misreading the horse's body language that badly he should stick to rocking horses IMO.

And Pat Pepperoni!!! Brilliant, but how can I order from Dominos now without thinking of the awful PP, it will put me off eating it? Oh well, be good for the diet..................
 
I've juist posted on the Savvy Forum about various issues and expect to get attacked by the hoards of those that think PNH is all there is for horses but I don't care.

I guess I am just getting to the point of where I am tired of not getting answers to questions, tired of hearing those justify what they do instead of explaining their reasons.

It's scary seeing the levels becoming so easy that now level L4 is more like the old level 1, then you get people who have passed level 1 and 2 and suddenly think they are experts when in fact they only know half of what used to be in level 2.

It's scary that PNH is becoming more and more elitist

It's scary that changes are being made that don't make sense (such as the patteres being released last year and that I found out PP admitted they were a mistake and done the wrong way around)

It's scary that events take place that are scary.
 
I have to admit, I got bored about 40 pages of tripe ago.

What posters fail to admit is that whether they're pro parelli or anti parelli - they're all blinded to the reality.

That the best place to be is in the middle.

I use NH, inspired by Kelly Marks and the two ponies I've trained with it. I won't touch Parelli with a barge pole, I ain't financing some cowboy who talks the talk but stumbles the walk! However, my horse comes first to the point where I can't ignore his suggestions.

I mean, okay, his supporters are blinded by devotion, but to what? They'd never follow a man who produced a string of broken horses, would they!

However, have watched the video of Catwalk and I'm not impressed. This is a man in a position of responsibility and he reverted to backwater techniques just to save face in a public sphere. I am not entirely sure it was horse abuse, as it was a dodgey video, but it's certainly not a demo to be proud of!

I am curious, however, as to the RSPCA's responce. We all know they're a bunch of wacked out hippies who will jump on any high profile bandwagon... would they be brave enough to go up against PP?????
 
martlin said:
I'm sorry, I have to ask:
If you have so little trust and find it so difficult to believe what others are posting, why do you bother with forums at all?
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That's just it, I rarely go on forums becuae of all the arguments, bitchiness, bad language and hearsay.

I only came back on as I was intrigued as to what was going to be said about the Demo.

I have to say though that this is the first time in a long time I have been on here and the posts are more constructive though there are still some that use bad language needlesly and voice strong opinions but heck at least the reading is more pleasureable.

The reason I say I will believe when I see reliable proof is because so many people make things up and idle gossip is damaging and it happens not just here but on all forums.

There is one forum I go on (non horsey) and so far its great, no swearing, no fabrications, no arguing, opinions accepted and not slandered, in fact it's just how a forum should be.. friendly with no hostility.
 
LMR said:
PP is not the only man who has dealt with problem horses. Seriously I think people have the right to question his methods as stated by other people he did not explain WHY. Surely at a demonstration where he is showing his methods he should EXPLAIN! I hope Parelli followers will one day wake up and see it for what it really is... a money making business!
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I was there and that poor horse showed not one bit of aggression at any time. I saw the tears in his mouth. I looked myself as Pat parelli lifted his lip. He was a very gentle horse who had been so tortured he just took it.
 
Thanks for posting a link to the vid - I'm sure its been up before, but I haven't managed to get through all the pages.

To me, that is horrific and I am glad that people have written to the BHS etc. I also hope it is true about them losing followers in the US, hopefully the UK will follow suit, and this man will go back to whatever stone he crawled from. :mad:

Just awful, that poor horse. :(

FWIW I am a follower of whatever method works without cruelty, and as I age (!) find myself more and more inclined to much softer ways of doing things, which comes with experience and education ime :)
 
Naturally said:
A horse who doesn't understand should, in my opinion, and the opinion of others who practice NH, be rewarded for the try, whether its right or wrong, at least he is trying to understand and to work for not against you. Its just a fine balance between rewarding the try and inadvertedly teaching the wrong response.

If a horse can't even try for you, or isn't trying the right thing, you can ask in a different way, or break something down into its components.

Much the same as many people who aren't NH would do :D
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But P DIDN'T reward the try, or he would have quit a whole lot sooner
 
I was at the demo and witnessed the abuse first hand. I confronted both Pat Parelli and Robert Whittaker and saw the cut caused by the gum line first hand. I would be more than happy to give evidence if a prossecution was taken up by any welfare body. As i am sure the Festival of the Horse vet would be.
 
MrsD said:
This is what was written by the PNH team after the demo (taken from nh dg)

Our challenging horse lived up to its billing tonight at the Royal Featival of The Horse demo. Catwalk, an extremely Left-Brain stallion showed us his wonderful spirit and demonstrated that his unwillingness to bridle hasn't been created during the 8 weeks that Robert Whitaker has owned him but is clearly due to many years of fear of being bridled due to the lack of a basic foundation training.

We ran 45 minutes over and a couple of folks were upset at what they think they saw, saying they may post on YouTube. We all have nothing to worry about except misunderstanding. Pat stopped at an appropriate time in the training process when he saw a breakthrough and preserved Catwalk's dignity, which is more important than getting the bridle on tonight.

Tomorrow morning we meet again with Robert to continue Catwalk's foundation training to enable him to begin to trust humans.

We'll keep you posted on Catwalk's progress over the next few weeks which will help those that don't understand see the fruits of passive persistence.
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:D:D:D:D
Folks were upset at what they think they saw! Patronising or what???
.... will help those that dont understand! More patronsing drivel

And the biggest joke- we continue the foundation training to enable him to trust humans. Excuse me while i spit tea all over the keyboard.

Ive only read some of the 20+ pages but i watched one video clip and PP may not think i understand and thats his defence but that gravy train needs to be de-railed ASAP for the sake of the horses that are in his care.
 
Not all of us that are Parelli paying students believe everything PP and LP do is gospel.
No human can get everything right all of the time.. and I too think the mistake at this demo was not stopping with the positive result of the bareback pad, I too would like to know the reasoning behind continuing after all we are always told to stop on a positive note.

I'd like to know wht teh gum line was used, I would have thought though still not right that it would be used on a bolshy dangerous horse. Catwalk to me was always calm, quiet and his only ishap was not wantign his ears touched but he still did not display and dangerous behaviours.

You could not have asked Catwalk to be more positive than he was at that moment and carrying on, all I saw was Catwalk get more stressed.

I'd hate to see what he would have done with my young horse, when he came to me he was so head shy he knocked me out once, today I can do anything with him and I never needed a 22 ft line or a gum line to help me.

As for people leaving PNH I have noticed that when I started Parelli 7 years ago the UK instructors have changed.
 
'Monty Roberts would never and has never tied up a horse's leg. This, sacking out and swinging from a post, was one of the practices that he disagreed with his father about.

When the film the Horse Whisperer was being made, he withdrew his support when the director insisted that the hero, whose character Nicholas Evans had developed after working with Monty, was required in the script to tie up a horse's leg and lay the horse down.

Monty will not inflict discomfort on a horse to get him to act out a behaviour he wants. He will use a buckstopper in very rare and extreme cases, where a bucking horse is about to lose its life or kill someone else. In this case Monty fits the buck stopper, it is loose, the horse inflicts the pressure momentarily if it tries to buck. He gives a very full explanation of how it works in From My Hands to Yours.' from thread on page 50


The book 'The Horse Whisperer' thanks two great horsemen Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt not Monty Roberts.

Monty and PP both use flooding which is kill or cure approach (for the horse)
but are good at self promotion.
 
Bramley said:
I was at the demo and witnessed the abuse first hand. I confronted both Pat Parelli and Robert Whittaker and saw the cut caused by the gum line first hand. I would be more than happy to give evidence if a prossecution was taken up by any welfare body. As i am sure the Festival of the Horse vet would be.
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That alone is enough for me, even without seeing it offically stated I do believe you... and now even more appalled that PP would use such a gadget to such extremes.
 
Well not that it'll make any difference but I have emailed them the following.

Hi,

I am not a general fan of Parelli and have today found myself watching a video of the 9th...I am sure you know which one.
I believe in Karma and what goes around comes around....I sleep easy in my bed at night.....can Pat and Lynda say the same? I hope they are truly ashamed of theirselves.
They have really ruined their reputation this time and I hope for the sake of horses that they will give it all up....or is the bank balance not big enough yet?

Jeni Ball
BHSAI Int SM, EBW, Cert Ed
www.livetoevent.blogspot.com - Please log on and become a follower!
 
teddyt said:
:D:D:D:D
Folks were upset at what they think they saw! Patronising or what???
.... will help those that dont understand! More patronsing drivel
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I agree, that statement is very patronising, if what Isee with my own eyes is only what I THINK I see then my whole entire life is a lie. Crickey and I am in the mid 40's .. that's a lot of lies..
 
I have lurked on this thread for a couple of days now, but I have a question.
Before I ask it, I dont subscribe to the PP theories, but to the "whatever works for your horse" theory. I also am not able to view the links for the video as work block the YouTube site.
My question is - why would, someone who aspires to all things natural and doing everything that is kind to the horse etc, why would he use such force and brutality in front of a huge crowd?? Surely PP would have realised that this would cause outrage to the veiwing public? And why would Robert Whittaker think about allowing PP to use his stallion for another show??
I find it very odd indeed.
 
SophieRIDSH said:
On RARE occasions, yes, and it's unmistakable. See it once and you will have nightmares.

Catwalk (at least not in the videos I saw) was no where near that place. At first he was saying "I don't want my face and ears messed with" And it looked like PP actually got him to accept that.

IMHO he should have quit there.

An experienced horseperson would have realized that significant progress had been made and could be built upon in the future.

But no, ego prevailed and that bridle was going on that horse no matter what and events spun out of control.

At that point the demo became dangerous because Catwalk wanted OUT of the situation. I at least never saw him act with intent to harm but a handler or spectator certainly could have been hurt had they gotten in the horse's way.

In addition to the unnecessary distress caused to the horse my main objection to a demo like this the fact that some of the hero worshipers don't understand (Oh, that's what they say about us) that what they saw was DANGEROUS and try this out at home.
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Yes, if he had had the ability to see that the horse had not actually said OK, I get this, I'll be OK. Apparently PP would also have quit there had he known what would have happened. He wasn't the only one to have been lulled into thinking the job was nearly done either.

To have let the stallion end on the note which followed next, most unpredictably or expectedly, would have meant the stallion would then have said no a whole lot more vociferously. I think, to his own dismay, PP had no option but carry on using every method in his NH book to get the stallion to be prepared to listen. Which he clearly was refusing to even consider.

Unfortunate, yes, but I think he had to finish what he started.

As for the horse being under the spotlights - er, he showjumps, on his own, in an arena full of bizarre-looking fences?

I want to see the whole thing, narrated by PP and not on wobbly cameraphones, heavily edited by personal viewpoints. Please.
 
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