jinglejoys
Well-Known Member
He was not talking about the rider but the horse "The more we use the reins the less they use their brains"
Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside
- Thread starter ponydentist
- Start date
He was not talking about the rider but the horse "The more we use the reins the less they use their brains"
rushyj
Well-Known Member
He started the sentence with "You see those dressage riders going around" who does that sound like he was talking about? Did he make another PP statement after saying he was talking about the horses?
jahseh
Active Member
Hello
I didn't intend to patronise anyone, as you would have seen if you had read some of my other posts I am traditionally trained through the BHS and don't believe any one method of training has all the answers. The sigh was because people keep saying parelli offers a quick fix and this is simply not true and the point has been countered very effectively several times by myself and others.
I don't at all recognise your description of a NH brigade person as someone I have ever seen at a Parelli event or clinic. Indeed while I have seen lots of horses at them I haven't actually seen a warmblood other than a couple which were instructors horses and they were ridden bridless so I don't think they had any trouble getting on and riding lol.
Incidently stallions are not allowed at most parelli clinics certainly not at any lower levels I am not sure when or if they are allowed to attend.
Most parelli training is not done in a round pen it is only recommended for use at the start of liberty work, certainly for ground liberty work, I am not sure about the ridden liberty but I think probably not. There are three other things all ridden besides the ground work, freestyle, liberty and finesse and all are given importance.
Also for people like myself who are only able to ride in a limited way or not at all ( I have a balance problem as my inner ear on one side is compromised by a tumour and i have 2 slipped discs) the ground work gives us more to do with animals we love.
As for my using dressage as an example why not I have never denigrated dressage in any way and the quote you have taken exception to says that a skilled dressage rider would acheive results a lot faster than a novice rider just as someone skilled in parelli techniques would acheive a faster result than a novice who has not been following the system for long.
rushyj
Well-Known Member
I am speaking from experiences I have had watching some talented horses ruined by people badly following the NH format not horses that have been presented to demos.
The horse I mentioned was a 2 year old Oldenburg colt who was standing 16.3... this horse was completely ruined by it's owner who did not have a clue.. he ended up completely headshy and nervous and had to be sent away to be restarted (traditionally).. another talented cob who could not have even his stirrups length changed with a rider on he was so terrified and landed one of my grooms in hospital. He had been in a NH home all his life until I got him. Another horse we purchased as 5 year old from a very well respected NH home who put my farrier on the deck 5 times the first time we tried to shoe him, nearly wiped out the dentist and napped so badly when he was ridden he was down right dangerous. After a year and a half he is now the sweetest horse who now trusts people and respects them. Another fantastic dressage horse topping 17.3 that was broken and riding away sweetly was bought by a lady who was nervous at the best of times refused to get on him until she had done the NH ground work. After 6 months she was still not on it she then recruited a traditional trainer to get on the horse which had obviously gone back to square 1, eventually the owner started riding the horse which she was terrified of, would not admit defeat and there had to be something wrong with the horse, took it to vet after vet to find a problem with it's back or hind legs and eventually had it written off and claimed loss of use for the horse. It now lives in a field and does Nh work every week or so. These are just some of the experiences I have had with NH. These were all different people.
This in essence is what I am saying not that people who follow NH are all like this but there are a huge amount of people who will take on some of it with no understanding and that will be the PP legacy. I know there is no way to stop this happening but by it's very nature and what it promises these things will happen and traditional trainers end up clearing up the mess.
How many times do you see adverts stating "will only sell to a NH home" how arrogant is that?
With regards to the ~Tight Rein = No Brain comment. At what level of Parelli would you have to be at to achieve collection and engagement without using the reins? Could a horse be schooled to high level dressage using parellis approach and ideals?
AengusOg
Well-Known Member
This too...
EAR SHY? By Pat Parelli
Can you touch your husband's ears? What about your best friend's, your child's or your mother's?
If you couldn't then there's probably something wrong with the relationship! This is how I want you to think of your horse's so-called 'problem'. If he doesn't like his ears to be touched its because deep down inside, he does not trust you. There is a flaw in your relationship.
When I talk about the solution here I am going to give you the natural approach, the one that consider's the horse's point of view. To effect a 'cure' you have to gain his trust and permission. The normal way is often to force the horse to accept it, twitch him, tie him, throw him…. In my mind (and in the horse's I'm sure) this is akin to rape and I won't use it.
So to do it with the horse's permission may seem to take a little time, technique and knowledge, but if you do it right you won't have to do it over!
The horse's point of view:
As I said in my last column, horses are prey animals and humans are predators. This is a biological fact. No matter how much your horse seems to like you, deep inside him is this wariness which creates defensive behaviour. In your horse it is around his ears where this surfaces.
Every horse knows that predators know where his vital spots are. When you read this list, you'll also realise that these are the known 'touchy spots' on horses: below the knees, the back of the hind legs, under the belly, the flanks, under the tail, behind the ears and on the poll. One swipe of a lion's claws in any of these areas is enough to mortally wound a horse, so his instincts are protective ones.
You have acknowledged that in some way you are still viewed as a predator by your horse and you are going to have to prove to him that you aren't going to kill him before he will relax around the ears.
Improving your relationship.
Some horses can appear to be friendly enough, or gentle enough as long as you are quiet and don't ask for much. This kind of conditional relationship is typical between horse and human, but as soon as you start scratching the surface you quickly find these 'can't, won't, don't spots' that could be anything from an ear shyness to fairly serious resistances or even aggressive behaviour. So what I do is start digging! I want to expose these relationship problems so that I can solve them.
I use a system of seven 'games' that I play with a horse that will expose every problem but will also help solve them. The first game is to prove I am friendly and the other six are yielding games to establish in the horse's language that I am dominant.
People often ask me how I get such extraordinary results with horses. Its because I do the opposite of what everyone else does! I think laterally, and I try to think like a horse.
Then I have the knowledge of prey animal behaviour, some creative techniques and a lot of imagination. I also have a sense of play rather than work, and you'll find that this really works with horses. The more serious you are, the more horses hate it! Horses are playful creatures so always keep this in mind.
The last thing is that there is nothing more persistent than a Pat Parelli. Most people try something for 3 - 5 minutes and think they've done what it takes! Take the attitude of "it shouldn't take longer than two days", and anything less than that will seem quick! This is a perspective on patience that is a valuable key in getting results with horses.
EAR SHY? By Pat Parelli
Can you touch your husband's ears? What about your best friend's, your child's or your mother's?
If you couldn't then there's probably something wrong with the relationship! This is how I want you to think of your horse's so-called 'problem'. If he doesn't like his ears to be touched its because deep down inside, he does not trust you. There is a flaw in your relationship.
When I talk about the solution here I am going to give you the natural approach, the one that consider's the horse's point of view. To effect a 'cure' you have to gain his trust and permission. The normal way is often to force the horse to accept it, twitch him, tie him, throw him…. In my mind (and in the horse's I'm sure) this is akin to rape and I won't use it.
So to do it with the horse's permission may seem to take a little time, technique and knowledge, but if you do it right you won't have to do it over!
The horse's point of view:
As I said in my last column, horses are prey animals and humans are predators. This is a biological fact. No matter how much your horse seems to like you, deep inside him is this wariness which creates defensive behaviour. In your horse it is around his ears where this surfaces.
Every horse knows that predators know where his vital spots are. When you read this list, you'll also realise that these are the known 'touchy spots' on horses: below the knees, the back of the hind legs, under the belly, the flanks, under the tail, behind the ears and on the poll. One swipe of a lion's claws in any of these areas is enough to mortally wound a horse, so his instincts are protective ones.
You have acknowledged that in some way you are still viewed as a predator by your horse and you are going to have to prove to him that you aren't going to kill him before he will relax around the ears.
Improving your relationship.
Some horses can appear to be friendly enough, or gentle enough as long as you are quiet and don't ask for much. This kind of conditional relationship is typical between horse and human, but as soon as you start scratching the surface you quickly find these 'can't, won't, don't spots' that could be anything from an ear shyness to fairly serious resistances or even aggressive behaviour. So what I do is start digging! I want to expose these relationship problems so that I can solve them.
I use a system of seven 'games' that I play with a horse that will expose every problem but will also help solve them. The first game is to prove I am friendly and the other six are yielding games to establish in the horse's language that I am dominant.
People often ask me how I get such extraordinary results with horses. Its because I do the opposite of what everyone else does! I think laterally, and I try to think like a horse.
Then I have the knowledge of prey animal behaviour, some creative techniques and a lot of imagination. I also have a sense of play rather than work, and you'll find that this really works with horses. The more serious you are, the more horses hate it! Horses are playful creatures so always keep this in mind.
The last thing is that there is nothing more persistent than a Pat Parelli. Most people try something for 3 - 5 minutes and think they've done what it takes! Take the attitude of "it shouldn't take longer than two days", and anything less than that will seem quick! This is a perspective on patience that is a valuable key in getting results with horses.
AengusOg
Well-Known Member
This too...
EAR SHY? By Pat Parelli
Can you touch your husband's ears? What about your best friend's, your child's or your mother's?
If you couldn't then there's probably something wrong with the relationship! This is how I want you to think of your horse's so-called 'problem'. If he doesn't like his ears to be touched its because deep down inside, he does not trust you. There is a flaw in your relationship.
When I talk about the solution here I am going to give you the natural approach, the one that consider's the horse's point of view. To effect a 'cure' you have to gain his trust and permission. The normal way is often to force the horse to accept it, twitch him, tie him, throw him . In my mind (and in the horse's I'm sure) this is akin to rape and I won't use it.
So to do it with the horse's permission may seem to take a little time, technique and knowledge, but if you do it right you won't have to do it over!
The horse's point of view:
As I said in my last column, horses are prey animals and humans are predators. This is a biological fact. No matter how much your horse seems to like you, deep inside him is this wariness which creates defensive behaviour. In your horse it is around his ears where this surfaces.
Every horse knows that predators know where his vital spots are. When you read this list, you'll also realise that these are the known 'touchy spots' on horses: below the knees, the back of the hind legs, under the belly, the flanks, under the tail, behind the ears and on the poll. One swipe of a lion's claws in any of these areas is enough to mortally wound a horse, so his instincts are protective ones.
You have acknowledged that in some way you are still viewed as a predator by your horse and you are going to have to prove to him that you aren't going to kill him before he will relax around the ears.
Improving your relationship.
Some horses can appear to be friendly enough, or gentle enough as long as you are quiet and don't ask for much. This kind of conditional relationship is typical between horse and human, but as soon as you start scratching the surface you quickly find these 'can't, won't, don't spots' that could be anything from an ear shyness to fairly serious resistances or even aggressive behaviour. So what I do is start digging! I want to expose these relationship problems so that I can solve them.
I use a system of seven 'games' that I play with a horse that will expose every problem but will also help solve them. The first game is to prove I am friendly and the other six are yielding games to establish in the horse's language that I am dominant.
People often ask me how I get such extraordinary results with horses. Its because I do the opposite of what everyone else does! I think laterally, and I try to think like a horse.
Then I have the knowledge of prey animal behaviour, some creative techniques and a lot of imagination. I also have a sense of play rather than work, and you'll find that this really works with horses. The more serious you are, the more horses hate it! Horses are playful creatures so always keep this in mind.
The last thing is that there is nothing more persistent than a Pat Parelli. Most people try something for 3 - 5 minutes and think they've done what it takes! Take the attitude of "it shouldn't take longer than two days", and anything less than that will seem quick! This is a perspective on patience that is a valuable key in getting results with horses.
EAR SHY? By Pat Parelli
Can you touch your husband's ears? What about your best friend's, your child's or your mother's?
If you couldn't then there's probably something wrong with the relationship! This is how I want you to think of your horse's so-called 'problem'. If he doesn't like his ears to be touched its because deep down inside, he does not trust you. There is a flaw in your relationship.
When I talk about the solution here I am going to give you the natural approach, the one that consider's the horse's point of view. To effect a 'cure' you have to gain his trust and permission. The normal way is often to force the horse to accept it, twitch him, tie him, throw him . In my mind (and in the horse's I'm sure) this is akin to rape and I won't use it.
So to do it with the horse's permission may seem to take a little time, technique and knowledge, but if you do it right you won't have to do it over!
The horse's point of view:
As I said in my last column, horses are prey animals and humans are predators. This is a biological fact. No matter how much your horse seems to like you, deep inside him is this wariness which creates defensive behaviour. In your horse it is around his ears where this surfaces.
Every horse knows that predators know where his vital spots are. When you read this list, you'll also realise that these are the known 'touchy spots' on horses: below the knees, the back of the hind legs, under the belly, the flanks, under the tail, behind the ears and on the poll. One swipe of a lion's claws in any of these areas is enough to mortally wound a horse, so his instincts are protective ones.
You have acknowledged that in some way you are still viewed as a predator by your horse and you are going to have to prove to him that you aren't going to kill him before he will relax around the ears.
Improving your relationship.
Some horses can appear to be friendly enough, or gentle enough as long as you are quiet and don't ask for much. This kind of conditional relationship is typical between horse and human, but as soon as you start scratching the surface you quickly find these 'can't, won't, don't spots' that could be anything from an ear shyness to fairly serious resistances or even aggressive behaviour. So what I do is start digging! I want to expose these relationship problems so that I can solve them.
I use a system of seven 'games' that I play with a horse that will expose every problem but will also help solve them. The first game is to prove I am friendly and the other six are yielding games to establish in the horse's language that I am dominant.
People often ask me how I get such extraordinary results with horses. Its because I do the opposite of what everyone else does! I think laterally, and I try to think like a horse.
Then I have the knowledge of prey animal behaviour, some creative techniques and a lot of imagination. I also have a sense of play rather than work, and you'll find that this really works with horses. The more serious you are, the more horses hate it! Horses are playful creatures so always keep this in mind.
The last thing is that there is nothing more persistent than a Pat Parelli. Most people try something for 3 - 5 minutes and think they've done what it takes! Take the attitude of "it shouldn't take longer than two days", and anything less than that will seem quick! This is a perspective on patience that is a valuable key in getting results with horses.
Natch
Well-Known Member
I wasn't going to reply again but since the thread is bumped up anyway...
I spoke only of Natural Horsemanship as a whole school of thought with lots of different trainers and methods under it, Parelli beng only one. I stand by my assertion that as a whole, NH is not about quick fixes.
I have never felt the desire to study under Parelli, I don't like a lot of what I see, and so I can't speak for Parelli.
If you read my comments earlier on this thread and on others, I absolutely do not condone what happened with Catwalk; and I don't condone a lot of what what I see when I watch Parelli.
Siennamum
I am not attempting to defend PP, only NH in general.
I am not the person who generalised you, and those like you as of the "kick it on" school of horsemanship.
I wouldn't, not intentionally anway, since I ride in a leather saddle with a bridle and a bit and everything, and lord knows if my horse is being nappy or silly for no good reason yes I do kick him on - therefore I probably am also generalised in the same category
This again, is assuming I am the same as the poster who decided all non-parellians are "kick it on".
Incidently, I think the broad generalisations "Kick it on" and "Parelli = all NH = numpties who are too afraid to ride their horse and are substituting DVDs for experience" are both as patronising and uneducated as each other.
Nobody who is sensibly contributing to this thread is advocating getting there in a month by watching a few DVDs - i'm sorry if I gave you that impression.
I also see a lack of sneering by the sensible NH contributors of this thread, tongue-in-cheek and TinyPony included.
I don't condone sneering of any type by anyone
Aengusog
I spoke only of Natural Horsemanship as a whole school of thought with lots of different trainers and methods under it, Parelli beng only one. I stand by my assertion that as a whole, NH is not about quick fixes.
I have never felt the desire to study under Parelli, I don't like a lot of what I see, and so I can't speak for Parelli.
If you read my comments earlier on this thread and on others, I absolutely do not condone what happened with Catwalk; and I don't condone a lot of what what I see when I watch Parelli.
Siennamum
I am not attempting to defend PP, only NH in general.
I am not the person who generalised you, and those like you as of the "kick it on" school of horsemanship.
I wouldn't, not intentionally anway, since I ride in a leather saddle with a bridle and a bit and everything, and lord knows if my horse is being nappy or silly for no good reason yes I do kick him on - therefore I probably am also generalised in the same category
This again, is assuming I am the same as the poster who decided all non-parellians are "kick it on".
Incidently, I think the broad generalisations "Kick it on" and "Parelli = all NH = numpties who are too afraid to ride their horse and are substituting DVDs for experience" are both as patronising and uneducated as each other.
Nobody who is sensibly contributing to this thread is advocating getting there in a month by watching a few DVDs - i'm sorry if I gave you that impression.
I also see a lack of sneering by the sensible NH contributors of this thread, tongue-in-cheek and TinyPony included.
I don't condone sneering of any type by anyone
AengusOg
Well-Known Member
...
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ecarylloh
Well-Known Member
AengusOg - I thought Naturally didn't follow Parelli, so I'm not sure how she could know why Parelli might treat Catwalk like that.
Am I missing something?
Am I missing something?
AengusOg
Well-Known Member
I don't know whether Naturally follows Parelli or not, and it makes no difference to me.
I don't know if you have missed something...perhaps you should re-read the posts in question. That's where I am now.
pippinpie
Well-Known Member
If you look at that part of PP quote it will tell you that he uses those techniques to 'diagnose' the true problem that Catwalk had, thats why it's reported 'that it started out OK' he then had to find out how deep that problem was, thats the bit were he finds out how far Catwalk is prepared to go to stop the bridle from being put on, passive and patiently trying to help him accept some head/ear touching. when it is obvious to PP that this problem is not merely a bridling problem but a deeper problem with trust and yielding leadership that have to be address first.
It is at that point he lost most of the viewing public and should have decided to continue the session in a more suitable environment.
But he didn't, if he continued he was damned and if he had stopped there he was damned so that his critics could say he was either beaten and his methods don't work or that he was going to continue behind closed doors so it must have been bad.
Can I ask if any of the media has picked up this backlash and reported it publicly? or is it just networking sites like this where hearsay and prejudice reign.
AengusOg
Well-Known Member
Re. the dialog between Naturally and myself...
It just goes to show how misunderstandings can come about.
I was interested in an opinion, from someone who believes, as I do, that NH is not about quick fixes, on PP's attempts to do a quick fix on Catwalk. I thought that a person with those beliefs would have something to say on the subject.
My opinions on the incident are well enough documented here and elsewhere. For the record, I have always thought PP to be a jumped-up, double talking cowboy, with an eye for a fast buck and a desire to have the world of horsemanship fall at his feet. Pure showmanship.
As for his programs of training, I could debate them till the end of the earth and I still wouldn't understand what he's trying to do. It all just seems like a very labour intensive way to train horses, and I've never seen a happy Parelli trained horse.
It just goes to show how misunderstandings can come about.
I was interested in an opinion, from someone who believes, as I do, that NH is not about quick fixes, on PP's attempts to do a quick fix on Catwalk. I thought that a person with those beliefs would have something to say on the subject.
My opinions on the incident are well enough documented here and elsewhere. For the record, I have always thought PP to be a jumped-up, double talking cowboy, with an eye for a fast buck and a desire to have the world of horsemanship fall at his feet. Pure showmanship.
As for his programs of training, I could debate them till the end of the earth and I still wouldn't understand what he's trying to do. It all just seems like a very labour intensive way to train horses, and I've never seen a happy Parelli trained horse.
ecarylloh
Well-Known Member
AengusOg - I have read every single post on this thread. The one I was referring to was where Naturally stated clearly that they didn't follow Parelli. You replied to it accusing them of dodging your questions.
PippinPie - hearsay and prejudice? A certain amount, yes, but there have been a number of people on here, besides PonyDentist, who witnessed the demo in person and didn't like what they saw.
PippinPie - hearsay and prejudice? A certain amount, yes, but there have been a number of people on here, besides PonyDentist, who witnessed the demo in person and didn't like what they saw.
AengusOg
Well-Known Member
Surely all he had to do was fix his mic and talk his way out of it. He seems to be very good at that after the event. It seems to me if you want people to understand what you are doing, you simply explain as you're doing it.
I, like many others on this forum work with horses which have been damaged by inadequate/innapropriate management and handling. Some of the ones I work with are dangerous owing to the misguided attempts of well-meaning 'helpers'. Some are the way they are through lack of experience or knowledge on the part of their owners/managers. Some are difficult because they have been treated brutally in their past. Many of them have given me a lot more trouble than Catwalk gave old PP, yet I managed to help them without resorting to cowboy tactics such as lip twitches and leg ropes.
I do demonstrations for my local equine college, and I've been asked by vets to work with horses belonging to their clients. During demos, I always say to the students that I don't expect any particular outcome...only that I will work with the horse and that, whatever happens, I hope they learn something about working with young or damaged horses. No great expectations and no end aim.
Pat Parelli is losing his marbles. The strain must be getting to him cos he can't even remember his own advice any more.
There were two of them hanging onto that rope and gumline with Catwalk on the other end, and they were using his legs to help them rope him down to a position where they could force him to accept their attempts to bridle him. Oh, PP assessed the horse all right, then he decided to use coercion rather than persuasion. Why he did that will always be open to speculation, especially as we cannot depend on anything truthful coming out of the PNH camp after these fiascos.
I can tell you now that I, and very many other folk that are disgusted that this man can treat a horse like this in the name of public education, would have done things very differently, and would have had more respect for that horse and his problems than did old PP.
He's lost the plot if he thinks that sort of behaviour will endear him to the British equine scene. Thinking horsepersons do not need an education from an old cowboy. Perhaps he really should shave off that moustache, if only to allow him to smell the coffee.
pippinpie
Well-Known Member
I agree but they seemed to have vanished and we are left debating the rights and wrongs of what happen
I was a little disappointed that you chose to comment on my post but did not comment on its content. I posted primarily to put a side to things that my not have been considered, not to take a swipe against public networking sites, my mistake.
AengusOg
Well-Known Member
Settle down. I mis-read the last post by Naturally. It was the way it was edited and quoted. Once I'd read it again I deleted the post you refer to.
I made a mistake.
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
Small point from Tinypony who is still being careful to avoid any sneering... and maintaining the correct frame of mind towards all of us horse lovers here...
When I read that people think that most nh-type practitioners run down other methods, or are intolerant of them, I get quite sad. Only a few high-profile trainers do that (like Monty and Pat). There are soooo many trainers out there who I guess you might say are "nh", and I've seen a lot of them. Most of them don't run down other approaches at all. The good trainers from this sort of background would be equally able to support a dressage rider as they could support a happy hacker who wanted to try some liberty work.
When I read that people think that most nh-type practitioners run down other methods, or are intolerant of them, I get quite sad. Only a few high-profile trainers do that (like Monty and Pat). There are soooo many trainers out there who I guess you might say are "nh", and I've seen a lot of them. Most of them don't run down other approaches at all. The good trainers from this sort of background would be equally able to support a dressage rider as they could support a happy hacker who wanted to try some liberty work.
Alimac19
Well-Known Member
Nicely said AengusOg. Well done.
Just an interesting thing I read in this long thread is that someone said that they saw the PP crew preparing a horse for a demo by lunging round and round for ages. Funny that because I've seen the PP DVD's and they distinctly say that there is no point in lunging a horse around and around for ages. I distintly remember this because I lunge mine. BTW I'm not a NH person just plain old comon sense.
Just an interesting thing I read in this long thread is that someone said that they saw the PP crew preparing a horse for a demo by lunging round and round for ages. Funny that because I've seen the PP DVD's and they distinctly say that there is no point in lunging a horse around and around for ages. I distintly remember this because I lunge mine. BTW I'm not a NH person just plain old comon sense.
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
Well, Parelli people do work their horses in circles on long ropes y'know. The point is supposed to be that they keep the horse's attention in the way they work, rather than allowing the horse to trundle around mindlessly switched off. I think that's probably the point of good lunging too, but haven't seen it very often.
Alimac19
Well-Known Member
Tinypony I would completly agree that lunging is not about trundling around for ages. You need to implement a transition or include elongated circles or spirals or somthing. I try to change something (usually a transition) at least once every two times round on the lunge as I think otherwise the horse switches off. I'm also partial to elongated circles as you can get a fantastic medium trot this way!!! And yes your right too many people don't lunge correctly however whats the difference then between PP lunging and say me lunging. Like I say the DVD distincly says lunging is pointless.
vandypip
Well-Known Member
You know the parelli's and their parelletic following have begun to believe their own hype and are completely up their own a***s. Whatever made the a member of the whitaker dynasty go there???? Convenience??? What does Lesley Desmond think of all this?? she appears to be working quitely with original Dorrance formulae. We have a wonderful quiet horseman in Michael Peace here too. Neither of them are big mouthed, ostentatious showmen like you know who. And, would probably done a perfect job in gaining catwalks trust for others to work on. Because that is preciseley what it is, gaining initial trust for further work, not a quick fix solution as was attempte at the FOTH. Unfortunately parelli has lost the feel for the horse at the expense of his bank balance.
lochpearl
Well-Known Member
vandypip - perhaps Lesley and Michael were busy? also I would imagine that Michael would not want to make a spectacle of the horse and would prefer to do him correctly in a nice quiet and relaxing environment. Again, I think most of this is for publicity as it was certainly not in the best nature of the horse.
vandypip
Well-Known Member
Pat and The Parelletics! great name for a band!!!
jahseh
Active Member
Hi
In reply to your reply lol. I have never said that every horse someone purports to be training by the NH method has a happy outcome it depends as does every other training method on the skills and understanding of the person doing the training. For every horse you have quoted as being ruined by NH badly practised there are many more ruined by traditional methods badly practised and more people frightened of riding them. Or are you implying every badly behaved horse is as a result of NH methods. It is not the fault of the method employed but rather of poor practice not exclusively a NH or Parelli problem.
Parelli doesn't recommend riding at all levels with no reins the finesse part of the programme is about the fundamentals of performance and you would be expected to be riding in a bridle with a bit. However I have heard of at least one person competing at a fairly high level with no bit (can't remember at what level and haven't seen it myself so that is hearsay) but I have seen horses in parelli hackamores offering 2 time changes, passage and piaffe a fairly high standard I am sure you agree.
As for arrogance in saying someone would only sell to a NH home there are some fundamental differences in the way the horses are handled for example in the leading, a parelli trained horse for example if it had only ever been handled that way would find the traditional method restrictive and more than a little scary. It would certainly be at the least confused and worried.
Given your views if someone came to buy one of your horses and said they were going to retrain it using the parelli methods would you sell to them? What you see as arrogance they may very well see as an attempt to stop people wasting their own and a prospective owners time.
A great many horses talented and otherwise spend most of their lives never reaching the potential for performance that they possess and a great many more without the potential to do great things compete happily at lower levels. Yet others are barely ever used either living in fields, DIY yards or private homes where the owners are just happy looking after what are essentially great big pets. If the owners and the horses in any of those fields etc. are happy and well cared for I don't see that as a problem just maybe as a frustration for people who like to see or use horses to their potential.
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
Alimac19. The main difference between the "circling game" and lunging, when I was in Parelli, was repetition or not. So you weren't supposed to circle your horse for more than a few circuits in each direction, and ideally you were supposed to vary the work. When you get a bit more advanced you can send your horse off on a circle on a 22ft line, walk off around a large area, and the horse maintains the circle around you. Then there is a movement called the falling leaf, where you disengage the hind end as the horse passes in front of you, to turn the horse to face you, and send it off on an arc in the opposite direction. Before the horse passes the level of your shoulder, you disengage and change direction again. All the time you walk forward. It is quite a pretty movement when done well, like a dance. You can also ask for a few steps of sideways off a circle, or hips out/in, shoulder in... all sorts of stuff really. I used to have a nice big field and I'd set off with my horse on his rope just aiming to keep a nice fluid movement going about 15-18 ft away from me, with the horse sometimes circling, sometimes doing a falling leaf, then away and over an obstacle, or around something, it could be quite creative. I don't suppose that the Parelli people your friend mentioned would have been doing all that stuff, but I'd be surprised if they lunged the horse in more than say 8 circles, before doing something else.
This is why I say that nothing is all bad, I learnt a lot of useful and interesting stuff with Parelli. I still use a lot of it, the difference being that I teach it to my horse differently.
I have one video of a snippet of this work with one of my horses. I will pm you a link, I don't know if I want to put it on the forum, it's old and the stuff I do now looks rather different LOL!
This is why I say that nothing is all bad, I learnt a lot of useful and interesting stuff with Parelli. I still use a lot of it, the difference being that I teach it to my horse differently.
I have one video of a snippet of this work with one of my horses. I will pm you a link, I don't know if I want to put it on the forum, it's old and the stuff I do now looks rather different LOL!
pippinpie
Well-Known Member
The difference is that they are not lunging, they use a method where by the horse is sent out onto a circle, allowed to continue without nagging from the handler and then disengaged and brought back or change rein or change gait. PNH circles can be big one, small ones, traveling ones many many others, the difference is there are three parts :the send, the allow and the bring back. a horse learns to maintain gait and stay on the circle until it is told otherwise, when teaching this maybe only two or three circles can be achieved, there's a world of difference.
vandypip
Well-Known Member
Couln't agree more with that. that is Leslie Desmond and Mike Peace where too busy!!!
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PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
Surely the horse's needs are foremost? Doesn't PP say this all the time? In which case the only thing to do would've been to stop and to hell with the critics.
snowmanbaby
Member
I defy anybody on this whole thread, to watch the video of Barney, being abused, yanked about, confused and humiliated, to explain to me what the "person" abusing the one eyed and disadvantaged horse was "supposed" to get out of that session of abuse???
Please explain to me, so that I can understand, and gain some "S...avvy" ???
Please explain to me, so that I can understand, and gain some "S...avvy" ???
vandypip
Well-Known Member
Snowmanbaby. You already have it!!!