Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

I was just thinking. I have agreed all along that the event at Stoneleigh was questionable (wasn't there, so will wait the result of the investigation as to if it was considered abuse, certainly not something I'd let my horses go through). I've not defended what Parelli did in any of the discussions, just tried to share some information about the much wider world of nh. Yet I still feel I've got my back to a wall for some reason, mad isn't it?
 
I think you got a little 'backed against the wall' because you were trying to share broader ideas of NH on a thread that started with specific incident in mind... I don't disagree with a lot you are saying, but at times struggled to get my head around your message, so to speak:o, on occasions it just sounds a little like justification for PP, which I know it isn't.
 
Yep, but I was trying to respond to the people who broadened the thread out... with the photos for example LOL!
That's the problem isn't it? You talk from an nh perspective and people assume you are refering to Parelli. Any time you try to point out a positive aspect of nh style training, people think you are trying to defend Parelli. I haven't been near Parelli for years. I think this demonstrates just how little people know about the wider world of nh-style training, and just how different it can be to Parelli. Most of the good trainers never use the term nh... which I why I keep saying nh-style.
 
I know you were just responding, TBH I think the thread should not have been broadened to start with as it only makes for arguments...
I'm as far away from so called NH as you can possibly be, but still people around here call me Horse Whisperer LOL! - apparently it is because I don't seem to lose my temper or get frustrated;) The thing is, of course I get frustrated and cross and so on, if you met some of my charges, you would see it's impossible not to at times, I just learnt not to react - so I might be seething inside, but keep my cool on the outside.
What I fail to understand is the reasoning behind all the tricks though... why would you bother to teach a horse to stand on a barrel FGS?
 
For fun? I know people who do stuff like clicker who will play with getting their horses to stand on barrels. I suppose it's not a bad idea to accustom your horse to standing on and walking over unusual surfaces and obstacles. I've never needed my horse to climb on a barrel on a hack... but you never know... !
Liberty work with a horse can be great fun if the horse is nicely trained and enjoys it too. I consider that a whole extra discipline to my horsemanship, although I don't have a liberty horse at the moment.
(Threads do divert don't they? But then, so do converstations).
 
Despite the emotive side to this discussion. The facts remain:

The horse was distressed
Despite being stressed and distressed, force was used by people advocating "natural horsemanship"
At no point did PP say, "I think he's had enough/needs more time/this isn't the right environment to deal with this problem"
And, having seen Linda abuse a half blind horse, I will have nothing ever to do with the cult of parelli (not that I was tempted before)

Also, where was Robert Whittaker when this was going on because I'd have been tempted to whack Mr Parelli with his own carrot stick
 
Ah, if it's for fun that's fair enough, but if somebody tries to tell me that teaching my horses to stand on a barrel is absolutely necessary in order to somehow enhance our partnership, that's b******s;)
Neither making sure they go backwards if I twiddle the leadrope is any better than them going backwards is I say 'back', is it?
 
martlin said:
What I fail to understand is the reasoning behind all the tricks though... why would you bother to teach a horse to stand on a barrel FGS?
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Now you could answer that yourself if you do a little lateral thinking:) when you go through every possible reason why they do that, stop at the one that says 'an aid to helping the horse gain confidence, builds trust and allows relaxation' and you might be somewhere near the answer.
I hope that doesn't sound patronising but it was the best way to put it without appearing rude. it was your use of FGS that riled me not the question :)
 
siennamum said:
You see that's another thing which irritates me about some NH practitioners. They make grand sweeping assumptions.

You are implying that 'traditional' people stop learning, or are closed to new ideas. Earlier in the annals of this thread, we were classified as being in a box. It's very rude & really stupid, almost everyone I know has lessons. Most people moan about how much they don't know, the only people I know who claim to have all the answers and who seem stuck in a rut are in fact some NH people. They patronise us by assuming we all have our flash straps too low and assume that we also don't pick and chose from different types of trainer.

I have lots of different trainers and learn from different media, amongst others I have Tim Stockdale on DVD and Reine Klimke in a book, so what is your point exactly?



No i never implied traditional people stop learning as a whole but that some did or were closed minded as are some parelli or NH people. The point being that the attitude is not exclusive to any one side.
As I have teaching qualifications through the BHS I might definitely be classed as 'traditional'. Although I am also studying the parelli programme and finding it very interesting particularly the ground work. I don't really appreciate being called a practitioner of any particular school as in the context you used it it was definitely intended as a derogatory term.
Where you may not have your flash strap too low surely you are not implying that it is fairly common to do so?
Nor did I say you and plenty of others don't take lessons or learn from other sources and I applauded that attitude but that being so why are you criticising others who choose different types or sources of learning?
As for sweeping statements I can't see I was particularly guilty of that where you certainly have.
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Backup is a state of mind, and hopefully also an exercise of balance of the body. I don't see any point in having a horse back up, from a wiggle of a rope or anything else, if the horse has tense muscles, head up etc. A good backup underpins your ridden work, so you want the head in the correct position, neck soft, back lifted, hind end under...
Anyway, gotta go, work to do!
 
pippinpie said:
Now you could answer that yourself if you do a little lateral thinking:) when you go through every possible reason why they do that, stop at the one that says 'an aid to helping the horse gain confidence, builds trust and allows relaxation' and you might be somewhere near the answer.
I hope that doesn't sound patronising but it was the best way to put it without appearing rude. it was your use of FGS that riled me not the question :)
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You are right, it sounds awfully patronising.
I still fail to understand how the horse is more confident, or relaxed for that matter whilst standing with it's four legs near enough together, on a platform, struggling for balance.
 
JessnGeorge said:
Despite the emotive side to this discussion. The facts remain:

The horse was distressed
Despite being stressed and distressed, force was used by people advocating "natural horsemanship"
At no point did PP say, "I think he's had enough/needs more time/this isn't the right environment to deal with this problem"
And, having seen Linda abuse a half blind horse, I will have nothing ever to do with the cult of parelli (not that I was tempted before)

Also, where was Robert Whittaker when this was going on because I'd have been tempted to whack Mr Parelli with his own carrot stick
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Ha ha!!! and basically you've hit the nail on the head
 
Tinypony said:
Surely most of you can understand that these nh style trainers aren't borrowing anything from the "kick on brigade" - if you want to call yourselves that? Just as horsemanship in this country comes from a long line of tradition, so does the sort of work you see with the nh trainers who are well-known today. Nobody is borrowing from anybody, it's just the way it is, horsemanship passed on down the generations. Parelli owes a lot more to people like the Dorrance brothers than anything done in this country, because that is what he was exposed to when he was young. I owe a lot of what I use to my traditional riding-school days, and I've built on that, and changed it in quite a lot of ways based on what I've learnt since.
And no, wrapping a leg with a rope isn't really a preparation for a game. Well, it might be in Parelli but I don't think so. It's just desensitisation and habituation. If it's preparation for anything it would probably be hobbling. Which I haven't felt the need to do.
I can't help thinking that it's one thing to be outraged at what appears to have been some very shoddy treatment of a horse. It's another when a large number of people on a forum decide they are anti everything to do with another branch of training, and even too close-minded to allow that anything that offers might be useful. (I'm talking about the huge range of nh training now, not Parelli specifically). I'm shocked that so many of you are obviously quite young, probably much younger than me, but so quick to dismiss ideas that are different. Parelli has arguably given this style of horsemanship some bad press in this last week, but babies and bathwater... there are many very good horsemen that come into this category who have a lot to offer, with not a "circus game" in sight.
I'll edit that to say that not everyone is coming across as close-minded, but the p*ss takers are I think. That's a shame, because we can all be so friendly to each other on the topics they like.
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Agree. But the Dorrance brothers would probably be appalled at how the parelli's have used their wisdom to market a global money-making minefield.
 
vandypip said:
Agree. But the Dorrance brothers would probably be appalled at how the parelli's have used their wisdom to market a global money-making minefield.
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They would probably wish they could've done it themselves they would've imparted their knowledge to more people that way :)
 
jinglejoys said:
They would probably wish they could've done it themselves they would've imparted their knowledge to more people that way :)
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Actually I prefer to think they were the original western nags men and their dedication was to the horse not their pocket. Don't think they were that thick, they knew what thay knew and generously imparted their knowledge for no financial gain, this is where it was for "the horse", don't believe they had, would have had any other intentions, and considering the "rise" in NH exposure, believe they would still have strongly opposed globalisation because you can't buy the "feel"!!!!
 
pippinpie said:
Please don't try and use my own stick to beat me with.

Someone asked why some Parelli horses stand on drums/pedestals, and I gave an answer, you didn't like my answer, but why do you feel the needed to ridicule me? says a lot about you!
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Actually, all you said was that it provided a 'safe' zone and then suggested I ask TnC for a full and detailed explanation. I'm still only about half way through that particular thread.
 
Yes, I've seen her, she is very interesting. When you watch there is a lot she is doing that she doesn't mention when she's talking.
I think Steve Halfpenny has a pretty good feel as well, and I've seen Phillip Nye teach, and he is awesome. Kind of puts Pat Parelli into the shade to be honest, but he's almost like a genius with horses, he's so intuitive. We are lucky, there are some very interesting people around to learn from.
 
I was speaking to a new friend and her daughter today, and discovered that they were Parellians.

They had been to loads of demos by various NH people including Monty and PP, and both said that both Monty and PP had changed of late; getting 'angry' with the horses and seemingly frustrated, no longer a calm and measured approach. It was interesting to hear this first hand.

In working with horses, I unknowingly use NH but call it common sense.
 
better half said:
Why in England do we not recognize and celebrate exceptional English Horsemen like Michael Peace and fall for smooth talking Americans.:o

In Denmark Michael is what they call 'World famous in Denmark', and they know their horses.:cool:
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That a good question, I'm going to look him up now :)
 
In response to some debate on horses standing on barrels.
Disclamer: I am not familiar with Parelli training techniques and don't know the basis for his use of barrels. In my effort to educate myself reguarding horses, I have stumbled upon Equine Studies Institute website. Its founder, Dr. Deb Bennett, PhD, has an interesting article on achieving proper collection, found here:

True Collection

On page 8, Dr. Bennett writes: "What teaching the horse to mount the drum does for him: it is a superb way to give the horse the experience of assuming the posture of collection - with one-tenth the work and ten times the fun, enjoyment, and learning."

Just sharing another horsemanship resource.
 
impromptu said:
In response to some debate on horses standing on barrels.
Disclamer: I am not familiar with Parelli training techniques and don't know the basis for his use of barrels. In my effort to educate myself reguarding horses, I have stumbled upon Equine Studies Institute website. Its founder, Dr. Deb Bennett, PhD, has an interesting article on achieving proper collection, found here:

True Collection

On page 8, Dr. Bennett writes: "What teaching the horse to mount the drum does for him: it is a superb way to give the horse the experience of assuming the posture of collection - with one-tenth the work and ten times the fun, enjoyment, and learning."

Just sharing another horsemanship resource.
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That would be just the front legs though, which allows enough room for the horse's frame. If on that same drum there were to be 4 legs, the horse would keep struggling for balance and more likely than not dip onto the shoulder, thus negating the 'collection'.
 
I'm sorry to be being a bit silly here, but I am still trying to imagine the look on our farriers face if I asked him to shoe my horse with it and him standing on a barrel :eek: :p :D
 
yorksG said:
I'm sorry to be being a bit silly here, but I am still trying to imagine the look on our farriers face if I asked him to shoe my horse with it and him standing on a barrel :eek: :p :D
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This was my thought as well! :p

My farrier used to shoe for a woman at my barn who has two lovely Paints. He finally begged off because she also has a large cockatoo that she brings to the barn with her and the darn thing wouldn't leave him alone, landing on his back when he was trying to work and that sort of thing. She, of course, thought is was cute. :rolleyes:

Come to think of it, I think she does Parelli. Which is not to say that being inconsiderate with her bird is somehow typical for a Parelli student. Just rather funny that's the case.

Actually, I will say her horses are very well behaved and she does ride them regularly.
 
martlin said:
That would be just the front legs though, which allows enough room for the horse's frame. If on that same drum there were to be 4 legs, the horse would keep struggling for balance and more likely than not dip onto the shoulder, thus negating the 'collection'.
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no not just the front legs when that happens the backlegs are well behind not at all going towards collection. When all four legs are on the pedestal the hind legs are up and under the body the hind end is in the engaged or collected position. If the horse did dip onto the shoulder (something that doesn't happen very often when the horse knows the exercise) the horse would step forward off the pedestal
 
jahseh said:
Yet again (sigh)
Parelli doesn't offer a quick fix, it is something you and your horse have to work at just the same as any other training format or system. As for the speed or lack thereof of any results; that depends on both the horse and handler.
Any variation in speed of results depends on the skill and understanding of the handler, again just as with any other system. You wouldn't expect a rider of olympic standard in dressage to need lessons and take ages to get or teach a horse to shoulder in; where a novice rider might. This doesn't prevent dressage riders giving demonstrations on how to teach any given movement it just means that those of us with less skill will have to take longer and may need extra help or tuition.
Parelli provides that help in dvd format, it's system of parelli professionals and with their savvy club. Just because people fail to seek out that help or take on only a little bit of the message is a very poor argument to stop sending out the message or providing the material.
Traditional training also has examples in abundance of people who through misunderstanding what they have seen or misjudging their level of expertise ruin or make the lives of their horses a misery. It is also very common to have horses with absolutely no manners who will barge, push run over etc. etc. because they have been loved loved loved, it is all a question of balance and education not sticking to dogma and rejecting information just because some people misunderstand or misuse that knowledge.
It is regretable that people ever stop having lessons and or seeking out more knowledge about any subject they find interesting and particularly in any hobby that involves another living being. Another saying often heard within the parelli community is "never ending self improvement" which encapsulates this philosophy.
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Firstly please don't "Sigh" at me I have not patronised you and your beliefs I just don't agree with the whole NH package.

The whole NH is marketed as the way forward "at a lot of expense" and that you can achieve these things with your own horse so of course the "I have a large bank account, no clue about horses but I am gonna buy a big 3 year old warmblood stallion brigade" are going to latch onto it. They are not going to opt for the traditional approach where god forbid they actually have to get on the horse and not play with it in a round pen with a carrot stick.

I have no problem with people using NH what I do have a problem with is when the traditional methods are dismissed as unenlightened. Wasn't it PP himself that made the following quote about dressage riders?

"You see those dressage riders going around? tight rein = no brain"

So please do not use dressage as an example as it clearly is not an educated area of equitation..

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=110262
 
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