Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

CalllyH said:
look at the bit when he nearly kicks him in the head
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how can anyone take such forum posts seriously when you can't differentiate between a passive drive using the foot and a kick...

On Friday I saw a skilled horseman attempting to correct avoidance behaviour. The stallion is a lovely horse yet was highly evasive to the receiving of a bridle.

As Robert mentioned at the beginning, there is no way he could bridle the horse and you would not like the techniques grooms use to get a bridle on the horse...

Not once in the session did we see a scared horse, the stallion was confident and evasive; plain and simple (and with good reason considering how the bridling of this animal has likely been performed in the past).

I do question the selection of this horse for a general-public session due to the inherent lack of horse behaviour knowledge of the spectators, leaving some people to misread the situation entirely. And no, owning MANY horses for MANY years does not inherently give you any insight into horse behaviour and psychology.

I believe the Parelli people should have had someone explaining as the session progressed to help the spectators understand. The posts on this forum thread provide ample evidence that such an explanation was needed.

Obviously if you did not attend (quite a high percentage of the posts here are from such individuals) then you really cannot really add to this discussion in a negative or positive way.
 
eahotson said:
One they are upfront about who they are and what they do.
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If this is the case, then why oh why are they not showing the whole video? Surely if they are proud of their achievements over the weekend, they need to post the vids to quiet down the growing hurricane of criticism aimed at them?
 
siennamum said:
WHAT has been done correctly. Please enlighten us.

Someone winning at an event in 2008 doesn't really do it for me tbh. I can come up with hundeds of people who have won stuff right up to date, who wouldn't hit their horses round the head with a piece of metal on a rope, twitch their horses instead of spending a little time uncovering the cause of a problem, force them physically to submit until they are more afraid of the handler than the object of their fear or tying their legs up in rope.

There are to points which I think are being overlooked by supporters of PP, as they are unable to answer them.

1. JG and Petalfred both suggested that in all likelihood the cause of this & other problems is generally physical. Why force a horse to do something when it objects because it hurts. Why not remove the cause of the pain - simples.
2. Why make such a feckin fuss over a horse which doesn't like it's ears being touched (wow, dangerous beast that!). It's no big deal, give it a couple of months of kind handling & it will get over it. What a shambles.
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I appologise for my word use here. Perhaps "correctly" wasn't a great choice. That kind of implies that there is only one "correct" way. So sorry for that.

First of all, you mention the metal clip. That is used after the horse has been asked a few times to back up. If he doesn't back up, then the rythm in the rope causes the clip to smack their chin, yes. But look at it this way .. when another horse asks your horse to back up, it will put it ears back and then either bite or kick. That is essentially what the smack of the clip is - a horse bite.

I can't comment very much about the stallion, because I wasn't there, but from what I have heard it was a lot more extreme than him not wanting his ears touched. Also, I do not beleive that the cause of the horse's problem was pain.

Lastly - "force them physically to submit until they are more afraid of the handler than the object of their fear" - you should probably research this a little more before you make comments like that. This is not something Pat Parelli practices or teaches.

Hello New-Here. If people feel uncomfortable with something, surely the best reaction is to try and explain why what is being done is ok rather than having a go? Makes you look kind of defensive and like you have something to hide.
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Sorry if it came across that way. :) It really wasn't meant like that. It just seems to me that this whole Festival of the horse thing has been blown a bit out of proportion. I provided the link to endospink in the hopes of putting things back in to proportion a little.
 
I am not trying to defend the Parellis really.Just that they do say who they are whereas I think that ponydentist was far more into all of this than he was prepared to be honest about.TrecinWales.We have heard it all before.If you don't understand its your fault, if the horse doesn't understand its his fault.
 
TrecInWales said:
Obviously if you did not attend (quite a high percentage of the posts here are from such individuals) then you really cannot really add to this discussion in a negative or positive way.
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I think the fact the vet would not allow Catwalk to be used the next day speaks for itself., at least in terms of the damage done to his mouth. That is pretty much all I need to know to be able to comment on that particular aspect of the demo. Explain to me how damaging a horse's mouth is meant to help with headshy issues.
 
whereas I think that ponydentist was far more into all of this than he was prepared to be honest about
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I got from his post that he was totally in to it, and was not intending to mislead - just promote a somewhat intersting discussion/debate.....
 
new-here said:
First of all, you mention the metal clip. That is used after the horse has been asked a few times to back up. If he doesn't back up, then the rythm in the rope causes the clip to smack their chin, yes. But look at it this way .. when another horse asks your horse to back up, it will put it ears back and then either bite or kick. That is essentially what the smack of the clip is - a horse bite.
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My horses learn to back up when I face them and say back. If they don't then I poke them in the chest. I have even been known to slap them on the chest and to push them back forcibly to get the message across. I also step on their coronet band, use a chest twitch and put my palm across the bridge of their nose & push their head back/away, different things work with different horses. They learn to go back straight away after I ask it once or twice. (then they get some nuts and sometimes a kiss on the nose)

They would never back up if I just wave the lead rope at them, they would look at me as if I was deranged, but then I've never really hurt them or had to. Difference in approach I suppose. I love having a partnership based on trust as well as respect & generally that involves not hitting them round the head & hurting them.
 
Fair enough that people can't comment on aspects of the demo if they weren't there but I think has caused enough concern amongst some people who were there (remember the OP is there because of such a person) that it needs clearing up. If the BHS is going to keep members and their respect, and this demo having caused such concern, they need to justify having Parelli at Stoneleigh. I'll say again what I said yesterday - maybe the Parellis or someone who understands what was going on and was there should post the entire 3 hours or so online, instead of the 9 seconds that is up, so that people can see and judge for themselves. That way, it will not be hearsay that people are reacting to (not that I'm saying anybody has lied about what they saw) but what they see with their own eyes.

If there was nothing untoward happening in the demo, then it will be self evident.
 
TrecInWales said:
Obviously if you did not attend (quite a high percentage of the posts here are from such individuals) then you really cannot really add to this discussion in a negative or positive way.
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I've never met Robet Mugabe, am I allowed an opinion on him? I also believe it's common knowledge there's no oxygen on the moon, though I bet lots of people who believe this have NEVER been there - cheeky bu**ers.
 
Does't it just smack of total arrogance to try and 'cure' a problem like Catwalk's in a public arena?

Am I right in thinking that this demo was done as one of the many displays/demos going on at the Festival of the Horse? So the audience would have been very mixed in its abilities and equine knowledge? Some would surely have gone just for the entertainment value of watching say a non-loader walking happily into a trailer after 10 mins? I'm sure that probably there were PP disciples there too wanting to see more but surely a public display like this was not the right place for a horse like Catwalk? IMO PP seriously misjudged the extent of the problem and the public furore he would cause. Or perhaps he doesn't care?

Looking at the Facebook site it would seem that the full video might end up on one of his Savvy CDs but I believe you would have to buy it?

I've watched the edited clip PP has chosen to make public and found the part where they are 'sharing lunch' made me feel quite nauseous.

I would be interested to see how Catwalk's career progresses after this appalling treatment.

(I am not anti NH methods, I had an Intelligent Horsemanship RA out to help me with my boy last week and the difference she has made is amazing and she explained absolutely everything.)
 
Wow I have now read all 46 pages! Still haven't discovered why Catwalk is so headshy. Did RW explain why? Has he had the horse long? Has he always been headshy, did a vet check whether he has a medical problem?

Sorry if I am sounding a bit dim here but surely RW gave the audience all this info & details of Catwalks history before PP began his " natural techinques" on the poor animal.
 
Naturally said:
Andrew Maclean also said he thought this was an excellent practice.
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Knowing Andrew, it surprises me that he would favour the kind of flooding you describe (or any kind for that matter) over progressive desensitization, i.e. exposing a horse to something that's frightening little by little, being careful not to provoke a full-blown flight response, until he relaxes and accept what was initially feared. Can you remember where he said or wrote this?
 
poops said:
Wow I have now read all 46 pages! Still haven't discovered why Catwalk is so headshy. Did RW explain why? Has he had the horse long? Has he always been headshy, did a vet check whether he has a medical problem?

Sorry if I am sounding a bit dim here but surely RW gave the audience all this info & details of Catwalks history before PP began his " natural techinques" on the poor animal.
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Who knows? We only will if they have the balls to post the hours of work that was done with Catwalk somewhere the public can view it. Maybe it will be on Horse & Country?
 
I admit to having done rope twirling with Ted to get him to appreciate that I have my space and he has his, however, he learnt very quickly (5 mins) and I only used a normal length lead rope, didn't connect with him at all and he is now fabulous about keeping out of my space (which is good, seeing he is over 17hh). So why the necessity to bang a horse on the chin, I don't see one, sorry. I will also push them backwards so they understand what is being asked of them - hitting them with a clip means they are moving backwards because it hurts and it IS bullying IMO.

how can anyone take such forum posts seriously when you can't differentiate between a passive drive using the foot and a kick...
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Again, the word PASSIVE. If we make a move towards a horse it is not passive, the definition of passive is this...

–adjective
1.
not reacting visibly to something that might be expected to produce manifestations of an emotion or feeling.
2.
not participating readily or actively; inactive: a passive member of a committee.
3.
not involving visible reaction or active participation: to play a passive role.
4.
inert or quiescent.
5.
influenced, acted upon, or affected by some external force, cause, or agency; being the object of action rather than causing action ( opposed to active).
6.
receiving or characterized by the reception of impressions or influences from external sources.
7.
produced or caused by an external agency.
8.
receiving, enduring, or submitting without resistance: a passive hypnotic subject.
 
Sorry if I sound stupid here... but if it is 'impossible' to bridle this horse then why was it bought as a competition jumper? Has RW actually had it out at any competitions (can't find any youtube clips) as that would mean that it is being bridled though I dread to think how. Also, if RW is 'alright with it' to be treated like that then I VERY much doubt he has the patience to build up the horses trust slowly at home so that he can bridle it. I'd place money on the fact he'd rather pin it down to tack up so he can ride rather than invest some time and patience in it. With my old girl who was bad to bridle we'd sometimes spend 45 minutes getting the damn thing on nice and slowly and stress free, just to take it off again as a reward... anyone else see him doing this? I feel for his groom, I really really do!
 
If there really was nothing to hide in this demo then the full video, and an explanation over the top to explain what is going on, should be posted for all to see and understand.

If this doesn't happen then we can all assume there are things to hide in the demo, things did go wrong, apologies can be made and the world can carry on as it was.

All trainers make mistakes, but it takes a real horseman to realise/own up to their mistakes and learn from them.
 
Phew, has taken some time to read all this, my head is spinning! I would love to see a video of the whole thing, though I think that may never happen. Those who are defending it with the 'you don't understand' thing is rubbish. I would love to understand! Please explain! I'm sure I will spend the rest of my life learning about horse behaviour and riding etc - can't learn if someone won't explain. The best teachers in all things seem often not to even consider themselves instructors, just observing tallented people without ego to get in the way helps you!!
From the you tube video, I guess the guy didn't kick his head, but if my mare drops her head (often hoovering up any scrap of food she can find!) then I squeek at her or something - she turns her attention to me, head up acheived - just seems a nicer way tbh. To back up I wouldn't smack her with a metal clip - having her attention on me and then asking her to back up, moving a little into her space, and a poke on the shoulder as more of a hint all work nicely and calmly. She doesn't like me touching her ears, she is sensitive about her ears and nose. Do I then spend an hour going all out to have her accept this? No!!! Gently stroking her and moving closer to these areas over days and weeks until she is trusting of me and knows I'm not going to hurt her. Can happily stroke her over these areas and it doesn't bother her. I am not dominating her, she just knows that I'm not going to hurt her either. None of this is a particular type of horsemanship sold as a brand, it just works in a way that us both seem to be happy with!
Those defending the behaviour mentioned at stonleigh just make me feel sad. Thank you to those who have reported what they saw without sensationalising it. Also the quote about why we own animals, just sad. Horses are such intelligent creatures and brilliant individual characters, who wouldn't want one in their life?! I wasn't a parelli follower before, though was pretty much neutral, I'm firmly on the 'no way' side now tbh, they scary way that they reply, while putting us down for not understanding, without being willing to help our understanding - makes me thing it is something I don't need in my life. Poor Catwalk.
 
that is exactly my opinion too saratoga, I fail to see why they're with holding the footage that they obviously have even though it's caused such a reaction, surely if they are so confident in their 'methods' they would happily plaster it all over the place?

the more I think about this the more saddened I am by it all. Yesterday for the first time since I've owned him my horse finally accepted a bridle and bit being put on, this was a result of weeks and weeks of very gradual processes - in the past people have labelled him as being "rude", "bolshy" and in fact "dominant" over his shyness, but in fact he was very scared as a result of pain from his past, people did try and force it on him, and it plain didn't work and only served to reinforce his fears. ok so that's my horse, but surely the same principals are there?

How PP can continue to ignore all this.... urrrgh
 
TrecInWales said:
I do question the selection of this horse for a general-public session due to the inherent lack of horse behaviour knowledge of the spectators, leaving some people to misread the situation entirely. And no, owning MANY horses for MANY years does not inherently give you any insight into horse behaviour and psychology.
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This is a wind up, yes?

So where did Parelli find his "insight", was he born with it? Is he some sort of Equine God?

Owning many horses of many years, as well as learning from those who have done so before you, is the best possible way to learn about the behaviour of the animals. If Parelli is telling you otherwise, it's because he wants you to buy his next DVD. He's pretty good at guilt tripping the gullible, in fact it seems he knows a lot more about human pscyhology than he does about horse psychology.
 
OK figured I'd post this so I can get shot down in flames about how cruel I am by the Parelli lot. This is the horse I had serious trouble bridling (including nearly getting knocked out by getting whacked on the head). Its not the best vid in the world due to the light (and the (ex) boyfriend so please excuse him) but surely this way of introducing something slowly and praising what is going well is better than trussing the poor horse up like a chicken!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9BFHlAhzS8

NB: This horse came one leaps and bounds with me and is now 99% perfect with her new owners and is not headshy!
 
peteralfred said:
horses often buck because they are in pain-have all these horses been worked up to check for that? how many times have we heard on this forum alone of horses with behavioural problems actually having a medical cause?
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I think this goes without saying.

I may have some respect for your opinion when you substantiate the defamatory remarks you made about Steve Halfpenny in an earlier thead.
 
intouch said:
I think this goes without saying.

I may have some respect for your opinion when you substantiate the defamatory remarks you made about Steve Halfpenny in an earlier thead.
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it doesnt go without saying when noone is saying it. And I care not whether you respect my opinion frankly.

I will not substantiate comments I made-they were not my horses and not my place to. Possibly I shouldnt have said what I did but knowing what I know my mouth got the better of me. Like I said, I have no clue who you are, why would I open my self up to that?
 
TrecInWales said:
On Friday I saw a skilled horseman attempting to correct avoidance behaviour. The stallion is a lovely horse yet was highly evasive to the receiving of a bridle.
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A really skilled horseman would have been able to correct the behaviour without resorting to gum lines and hobbling, no? But in any case, this kind of problem can be tackled by anyone with patience and a proper understanding of equine behaviour and how horses learn, taking however long it takes. It really isn't rocket science!

As Robert mentioned at the beginning, there is no way he could bridle the horse and you would not like the techniques grooms use to get a bridle on the horse...
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What techniques did they use? Do you think they exacerbated the problem? Did the grooms use them because they didn't have the time to attempt the above?

Not once in the session did we see a scared horse, the stallion was confident and evasive; plain and simple (and with good reason considering how the bridling of this animal has likely been performed in the past).
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It sounds like it was unpleasant for the horse though - unnecessarily unpleasant. Two hours is an awful long time (for a horse) for problem behaviours to be worked on intensively.

I do question the selection of this horse for a general-public session due to the inherent lack of horse behaviour knowledge of the spectators, leaving some people to misread the situation entirely. And no, owning MANY horses for MANY years does not inherently give you any insight into horse behaviour and psychology.
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So do you think RW comes into that category? I think, if he had the insight, he would have been able to help Catwalk himself, or at least known to instruct the grooms to stop bridling him in the way they did.

I believe the Parelli people should have had someone explaining as the session progressed to help the spectators understand. The posts on this forum thread provide ample evidence that such an explanation was needed.
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Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes the "explanations" given at these kind of public events are a whitewash/smokescreen to justify what many in the audience know deep down (because they are knowledgeable, experienced and/or have a natural horse-sense) is wrong.

Obviously if you did not attend (quite a high percentage of the posts here are from such individuals) then you really cannot really add to this discussion in a negative or positive way.
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I did not attend, but would be very interested to see a full(er) video. Even without attending the event, there is much that can reasonably be questioned and discussed here.
 
peteralfred said:
I will not substantiate comments I made-they were not my horses and not my place to. Possibly I shouldnt have said what I did but knowing what I know my mouth got the better of me. Like I said, I have no clue who you are, why would I open my self up to that?
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Because HHO terms and conditions do not allow defamatory comments. If you're willing to criticise someone to complete strangers, I don't see any reason for you not to substantiate said comments to the same complete strangers.
 
chestnuttymare said:
I think if you saw the lady who helped me and some of her liveries working with some of their horses, you would change your mind about the 'old' parelli. It is kind, done with really subtle body language and all the horses are happy and stressless.
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We too have had only positive experiences with people who are advocates of Parelli, so I am a bit surprised by all of this, it is out of character with the people and methods I have seen. At its best Parelli offers a useful approach for some people. I do not mean to be argumentative with those here who are upset by what they saw and/or heard about this event. Since I did not see the incident in question, I will withhold judgment.

As you might guess, what really caught my eye about your post was the photo of your beautiful Doberman. What is the breeding? -Elaine
 
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PapaFrita said:
Because HHO terms and conditions do not allow defamatory comments. If you're willing to criticise someone to complete strangers, I don't see any reason for you not to substantiate said comments to the same complete strangers.
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you are right in principle but please re-read my post above. I will not and I shouldnt have said what I did and I will not comment further.
 
Logres Farm said:
I do not mean to be argumentative with those here who are upset by what they saw and/or heard about this event, but there is so much to criticize in this world, most every where one turns,we prefer to keep our equine interest as positive as possible. Since I did not see the incident in question, I will withhold judgment.
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Well, yes, there are many horrors in the world worse than PP allegedly rough-handling a horse. That does not mean we should tolerate cruelty where we perceive it. There are countless videos on YouTube insisting that Parelli is the ONLY humane way to handle horses and essentially those of us who ride, travel horses in lorries, etc, etc, are cruel. Why are the Parelli people so intolerant of everyone else? You don't get Monty Roberts or Kelly Marx or Michael Peace saying that theirs in the only way.
Personally, I will reserve judgement until I have the chance to see the full video. What I've seen so far does not impress me, but some people have come over a bit hysterical suggesting he 'nearly kicked' the horse in the head... utter rubbish. HAD his foot made contact it would've been a nudge. Lets keep it real.
 
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