Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

fburton said:
No problem - thanks for the clarification. I still can't help feeling Andrew's view on this was miscommunicated. I know he recommends strongly against treatment that leads to learned helplessness, so it seems odd that he should promote use of flooding - especially the wheat-box! I understand what you're getting at in your last sentence though.
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Thats what I found so odd about it! I don't think he mentioned learnt helplessness per se, because I was waiting to hear those words and for him to condemn it. The wedging a horse in a box with grain so that only his head is poking out then exposing them to high levels of a frightening stimulus method was refered to as flooding, and it was implied that it was an acceptable, even recommendable type of horse training. :confused: To me that is a plain and simple example of learnt helplessness.

Perhaps there was a communication error at this lecture demo though - I hope so. I will dig out my notes, I think I still have them somewhere - it would be interesting to compare them to what you experienced/know of him.
 
shysmum said:
I have also forwarded it to the RSPCA Inspectorate, with an explanation that there was alleged horse abuse, an alleged injury to the horse, allegedly confirmed by a vet, non-action by those in charge of the event, and that the whole thing was videoed. I am sure that with the outrage being expressed, an outcome WILL be achieved. Does anyone know who the vet was ? Showjumpers and Parelli are NOT above the law in this country.

I implore the peeps that witnessed this abuse to contact the RSPCA and WHW, as they will need to take statements from you.

sm x
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Well done for doing that, hope something comes of it.
 
brighteyes said:
We usually see things along the same lines - if there was no real trouble, why was the horse in there to have the bridling problem sorted in the first place?
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The truth is, I don't know - RW won't admit what 'not nice' ways they've used and I haven't the inside knowledge to find out, however, I have had horses with extreme bridling issues and I would never go about sorting them in the way PP (allegedly) has done.
It seems to me that 7 weeks is very little time to establish the reasons and the pattern of behaviour behind Catwalk's issues, never mind 'curing' them. The horse has obviously been ridden, so one can assume that it is possible to put a bridle on him, one can hardly imagine tying it down every day in order to tack it up...
Anyway, I might not be the best person to ask as I might not be objective - I don't have much time for PP or RW for that matter.
 
Naturally said:
Thats what I found so odd about it! I don't think he mentioned learnt helplessness per se, because I was waiting to hear those words and for him to condemn it. The wedging a horse in a box with grain so that only his head is poking out then exposing them to high levels of a frightening stimulus method was refered to as flooding, and it was implied that it was an acceptable, even recommendable type of horse training. :confused: To me that is a plain and simple example of learnt helplessness.
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Agree - it all sounds rather odd!

Perhaps there was a communication error at this lecture demo though - I hope so. I will dig out my notes, I think I still have them somewhere - it would be interesting to compare them to what you experienced/know of him.
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I've met and 'talked horses' with him a few times, over here and in Dublin at the 2008 International Society for Equitation Science meeting. Also corresponded to some extent because we were co-authors on a paper with Paul McGreevy who I know rather better. I'll have another look in his books - "The Truth About Horses" and "Equitation Science" - to see what he says about flooding.
 
Munchkin said:
Totally agree. But this is called Parelli Natural Horsemanship.



Ditto. However I'm confused as to why this is being kept from public view, and why the need was felt to post a disclaimer in case anyone posted it on YouTube. It arouses suspicion.



Absolutely. However, the injury of the horse goes against everything Parelli preaches.



I have never taken issue with anything seen in the [edited] video. Nor do I think that he kicked the horse in the head. As for doping it - it was probably just exhausted from the previous night's events. We'll never know.



Quite. You'd think they'd post damn the video and prove us all wrong, eh? ;)
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Damned if you do, damned if you don't!
 
i have just had a look at the link to parelli facebook page

i don't wish to upset any followers as im sure there are some normal sensible people some were among you all.
iv'e never had a great interest in parelli ,negatively or other wise but i have to say this post as well as the facebook page has changed my mind.

i now think they are all completely barking mad !!!
weather it is good for the horse or not the people on there are behaving like they belong to some sort of cult
are they all brainwashed or something ,if i am unlucky enough to bump into a parelli follower in future outings i shall be running for the hills
 
Have nothing really to add but am not surprised that PP has gone extreme. Never liked the guy or his methods. As for how RW usually bridle the horse, I have in the past seen horses that rarely have their bridle taken off, usually the noseband and reins are taken off when the horse is left overnight. So would not be surprised if this is what happens. Although that is just a suggestion.
In Oz I saw horses tied up with no water or food and hobbled and thrown, it is a very backward way of going about desensitising a horse. When I got my horse 4 years ago he had never worn a headcollar and was very wild, slowly he has got used to being handled, tied up, the hose and the farrier etc, now he is very good. He did get chosen for a MR show as a spooky horse a few years back but I felt that it had not done him much good and they worked him hard all day before the evening performance so even though MR never touched him before the show, he had been watching him all day and his staff had well and truly worn him out. They also admitted to having chosen him for the performance due to his 'extreme reactions' although they did not believe he was truly spooky.
 
Just so I don't have to go back through tons of pages has anyone found a video of the actual session (not the 12 seconds that was posted earlier)?
 
amandap said:
The accounts of PP working with Catwalk at this Demo sound horrific and imo unacceptable.

To change tack slightly I've been pondering 'owner' resonsibility in this instance.
I expect most of us have been in a situation when we were unhappy with how a 'professional' was dealing with our horse and gaining the courage to speak out and stop things is not always straightforward.
I've been wondering what the Whittikers thinking about all this is and whether they wished to call a halt to the Demo but felt unable due to unknown constraints or whether they found it acceptable???

I think we should all learn from this that we must try and find the courage to speak out for our horses when we feel they are being treated unfairly, roughly etc. etc.
I of course have no idea what the Whittikers were thinking or feeling but I hope I would have had the courage to shout stop if I were the owner/carer in this re told scenario.

It is my view that in the end the owner/carer is ultimately responsible for the horses care and training as well as it's mental welbeing so I think we must stop just putting up with stuff we believe is wrong or detrimental to our horses just because someone 'knows better' or is more experienced etc.
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I asked Robert Wittacker directly at the demo as the poor horse came out if this was acceptable. He said he didn't have to talk to me but when i pressed him for an answer he said it was acceptable by him.
 
Shysmum

Please let the RSPCA know that I will gladly be a witness to the whole event as I WAS THERE......one of THREE people on this whole thread who were. The rest of you were not. I also have an advantage in that I witnessed some of the following days sessions.

I have no connection in any shape or form with Parelli Natural Horsemanship enterprize.

Pm me if you require my address and contact details
 
Do you Seriously think that if it was as easy as taking the bridle to bits or using a few treats/syrup that Robert Whittaker and his team of grooms wouldn't have sorted it by now? It has taken 8 weeks of trying and failing and now they have asked for help. Maybe they should have waited until the horse killed someone?

Pat Parelli has dealt with horses which have killed people before. Have you? Would you? If someone said "my horse won't be bridled/saddled/go in trailer/stand for farrier/have rug on .... and he killed the last person who tried - can you help me" What would you say? Oh, give him a few treats, use syrup on the bit, take the bridle to bits, sedate him .....

Parelli has helped thousands of horses, maybe tens of thousands, spending most of his adult life helping horses and people. How many have you helped? He has hundreds of thousands of followers all over the world - are they all beginners, gullible or brainwashed?

I am neither gullible nor a beginner, having hunted in Ireland and with the Belvoir since a child, competed all over the country with several different horses, most of which I broke in myself - until I met a horse that I couldn't deal with. He bolted at the drop of a hat, endagering his own life as well as mine and others (over a railway line once). NO one would or could help me, and I asked lots and lots of people. Parelli turned us around and after a while I could do anything with him - more than I'd ever achieved with a horse.

If Pat had cured this horse behind the scenes, he would be accused of hypocrisy. If it had been an easier horse he would have been accused of working with it beforehand. He couldn't win with some people, really. And as for saying that he kicked the horse in the head in the short video clip ..... well there are none so blind as those who won't see.

It is interesting to note that Robert Whittaker is continuing to leave Catwalk with Pat and his team so he can continue to improve. Or is he stupid/brain washed/a beginner/gullible too?

The equipment is nowhere near as expensive as some of the bits and gadgets I used to own (which failed to work) for my difficult horse. If they make money out of their products, they deserve to.

I just WISH that the people who slag a master horseman from the safety of their sofas could have got hold of that horse and attempted to bridle him. But maybe not.
 
if a horse has actually killed someone, surely it is so disturbed it should be PTS ? What's to say it won't rebel in the future and attack the new owner ? I'm totally stunned.
 
PPF&Proud said:
Do you Seriously think that if it was as easy as taking the bridle to bits or using a few treats/syrup that Robert Whittaker and his team of grooms wouldn't have sorted it by now? It has taken 8 weeks of trying and failing and now they have asked for help. Maybe they should have waited until the horse killed someone?

Pat Parelli has dealt with horses which have killed people before. Have you? Would you? If someone said "my horse won't be bridled/saddled/go in trailer/stand for farrier/have rug on .... and he killed the last person who tried - can you help me" What would you say? Oh, give him a few treats, use syrup on the bit, take the bridle to bits, sedate him .....

Parelli has helped thousands of horses, maybe tens of thousands, spending most of his adult life helping horses and people. How many have you helped? He has hundreds of thousands of followers all over the world - are they all beginners, gullible or brainwashed?

I am neither gullible nor a beginner, having hunted in Ireland and with the Belvoir since a child, competed all over the country with several different horses, most of which I broke in myself - until I met a horse that I couldn't deal with. He bolted at the drop of a hat, endagering his own life as well as mine and others (over a railway line once). NO one would or could help me, and I asked lots and lots of people. Parelli turned us around and after a while I could do anything with him - more than I'd ever achieved with a horse.

If Pat had cured this horse behind the scenes, he would be accused of hypocrisy. If it had been an easier horse he would have been accused of working with it beforehand. He couldn't win with some people, really. And as for saying that he kicked the horse in the head in the short video clip ..... well there are none so blind as those who won't see.

It is interesting to note that Robert Whittaker is continuing to leave Catwalk with Pat and his team so he can continue to improve. Or is he stupid/brain washed/a beginner/gullible too?

The equipment is nowhere near as expensive as some of the bits and gadgets I used to own (which failed to work) for my difficult horse. If they make money out of their products, they deserve to.

I just WISH that the people who slag a master horseman from the safety of their sofas could have got hold of that horse and attempted to bridle him. But maybe not.
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PP is not the only man who has dealt with problem horses. Seriously I think people have the right to question his methods as stated by other people he did not explain WHY. Surely at a demonstration where he is showing his methods he should EXPLAIN! I hope Parelli followers will one day wake up and see it for what it really is... a money making business!
 
Actually I have dealt with very dangerous horses through my work and at no point did we ever put a horse on the ground or use any of the other dubious methods prescribed by Parelli at the so called higher levels.
 
PPF&Proud said:
Do you Seriously think that if it was as easy as taking the bridle to bits or using a few treats/syrup that Robert Whittaker and his team of grooms wouldn't have sorted it by now? It has taken 8 weeks of trying and failing and now they have asked for help. Maybe they should have waited until the horse killed someone?

Pat Parelli has dealt with horses which have killed people before. Have you? Would you? If someone said "my horse won't be bridled/saddled/go in trailer/stand for farrier/have rug on .... and he killed the last person who tried - can you help me" What would you say? Oh, give him a few treats, use syrup on the bit, take the bridle to bits, sedate him .....

Parelli has helped thousands of horses, maybe tens of thousands, spending most of his adult life helping horses and people. How many have you helped? He has hundreds of thousands of followers all over the world - are they all beginners, gullible or brainwashed?

I am neither gullible nor a beginner, having hunted in Ireland and with the Belvoir since a child, competed all over the country with several different horses, most of which I broke in myself - until I met a horse that I couldn't deal with. He bolted at the drop of a hat, endagering his own life as well as mine and others (over a railway line once). NO one would or could help me, and I asked lots and lots of people. Parelli turned us around and after a while I could do anything with him - more than I'd ever achieved with a horse.

If Pat had cured this horse behind the scenes, he would be accused of hypocrisy. If it had been an easier horse he would have been accused of working with it beforehand. He couldn't win with some people, really. And as for saying that he kicked the horse in the head in the short video clip ..... well there are none so blind as those who won't see.

It is interesting to note that Robert Whittaker is continuing to leave Catwalk with Pat and his team so he can continue to improve. Or is he stupid/brain washed/a beginner/gullible too?

The equipment is nowhere near as expensive as some of the bits and gadgets I used to own (which failed to work) for my difficult horse. If they make money out of their products, they deserve to.

I just WISH that the people who slag a master horseman from the safety of their sofas could have got hold of that horse and attempted to bridle him. But maybe not.
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I don't recall reading that this horse had killed anyone. If he has, it seems he would be even less sensible to use for a demonstration like this. If he has not, I don't know what your point is.

Just because someone has had success does not mean that their methods are above question. Much of the problem people are having with this incident is that their questions about why things were done the way they were have not been answered. All that is offered are patronizing remarks to the effect that observers obviously didn't understand what was going on or that they didn't have the horsemanship skills to recognize the breakthrough.

This is nonsense. If it is impossible for the average person to understand, why use it in a demo with no explanation? Your post does nothing to add to that understanding.
 
If a horse has killed someone for what every reason it should be destroyed also a highly dangerous one, which from one of the above post has said Catwalk is?? May have read it wrong.
 
No ...you are right Pat Parelli is not the only trainer in the world to have dealt with horses who have killed people. I have seen and met and worked with other trainers who have.

But he has helped thousands of horses from exteeme last hope cases to the slightest of minor problems and has never abused or been cruel to any horse since he started working withthen in the way that he does. Do you really honestly think that a man of his standing in the horse world would publically abuse a horse....let alone a horse who belonged to someone as influential as the one that this stallion belonged to. Ifg you are crazy enough to think that he would wilfully abuse a horse.....tell me your reasons right here and now.

Pat Parelli....like him or loathe him...is a MASTER HORSEMAN of this world with acloades longer than the road from Edinburgh to London. He does not need to comit professional suicide in such a manner. There are people in this world whos "horse life" extends to owning a few horse and having a few horsey friends and no further than that.....and such people are in no position whatsoever to criticise one of the worlds greatest horsemen because they are just simply not in the same league.

EVERY single thing that he did to that horse on that night was done for a reason with a rationale learned, honed and practiced for years with absolute proven results....And i mean everything that was done.

I was there....I saw..so was my wife...she saw and as i explained she understood. She will stand as witness in any court in any land and say the same ....there was no abuse...cruelty....undue distress or fear caused to that horse on that night. I looked and I saw......I listened and I heard.

We were going to have our own horse...who i and my wife love endlessly to be used in the following nights demo. We were still going to allow it after the whole of friday nights demo....which incidently we stayed for the whole duration of. My wife went outside and witnessed ONE lady who was clearly incensed talking to Parelli staff and accusations of horse abuse were being thrown.....but this was well before the demo ended. It is pretty clear that this is the lady who posted second to mine in the original start of this thread. There were approx five hundred people watching the demo......not all of them by a long chalk were Parelli devotees.....as we are not...my wife has never been to any kind of demo of this nature. Many were there because they were staying two nights and went along out of pure interest. At the end of the demo 98% of the audience were still seated.

Please If you want to know my background and horse experience take the time and bother to read my earlier posts...(first two or three from me posted sunday morning) where i have explained who i am and my background with horses.

If anyone is going to contact World Horse Welfare....or any other organisation then please give my details as a witness and my wife's.
 
baymareb said:
I don't recall reading that this horse had killed anyone. If he has, it seems he would be even less sensible to use for a demonstration like this. If he has not, I don't know what your point is.

Just because someone has had success does not mean that their methods are above question. Much of the problem people are having with this incident is that their questions about why things were done the way they were have not been answered. All that is offered are patronizing remarks to the effect that observers obviously didn't understand what was going on or that they didn't have the horsemanship skills to recognize the breakthrough.

This is nonsense. If it is impossible for the average person to understand, why use it in a demo with no explanation? Your post does nothing to add to that understanding.
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OH MY GOD.....Now people are assuming that the horse used has killed people

PLEASE READ and evaluate every post on here before you make your own replies.....!
 
ponydentist said:
I was there....I saw..so was my wife...she saw and as i explained she understood. She will stand as witness in any court in any land and say the same ....there was no abuse...cruelty....undue distress or fear caused to that horse on that night. I looked and I saw......I listened and I heard.
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In a previous post you explained the reasons behing tying a horses leg up being that it makes the horse incredibly vulnerable and feel like it's about to die. How then would the horse not be feeling undue distress or fear having this done to it? If it is fear of its life?
 
Well maybe PP is a horseman but his cheapening of the skill by packaging and saying that anyone can do it and the formation of this almost cult like following is what really leaves a bad taste in the mouth of many, before hearing about the events of Friday ngiht. Interestingly enough I was talking to my South African farrier about this and he was telling me it sounded similar to how the Zulu's treat their horses - think of that what you will.
 
ponydentist said:
OH MY GOD.....Now people are assuming that the horse used has killed people

PLEASE READ and evaluate every post on here before you make your own replies.....!
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I have read and evaluated every post on here. I was responding to another poster who stated that Parelli has worked with horses who have killed people. I questioned what that had to do with this particular incident since I had not heard that Catwalk was a horse that had killed anyone.

My reading comprehension is just fine, thanks.
 
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