Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

galaxy23 said:
In a previous post you explained the reasons behing tying a horses leg up being that it makes the horse incredibly vulnerable and feel like it's about to die. How then would the horse not be feeling undue distress or fear having this done to it? If it is fear of its life?
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Any situation which makes man or beast so incredibly vulnerable that they think they may die is plainly and simply a form of bullying. Sadly in this world bullies naturally occur, is this how Team Parelli can class what they do as "natural"
 
ponydentist said:
But he has helped thousands of horses from exteeme last hope cases to the slightest of minor problems and has never abused or been cruel to any horse since he started working withthen in the way that he does. Do you really honestly think that a man of his standing in the horse world would publically abuse a horse....let alone a horse who belonged to someone as influential as the one that this stallion belonged to. Ifg you are crazy enough to think that he would wilfully abuse a horse.....tell me your reasons right here and now.
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I hope noone would,but Spindles farm prooved that making a lot of money off the backs of horses does not mean people always act in their best intrests.
The accounts of people there conflict.There is no video evidence to contradict or confirm the accounts in praise of PP or slamming him-in that situation is is in the best intrests of the horse that PP and his team are asked to proove they did no wrong.


ponydentist said:
Pat Parelli....like him or loathe him...is a MASTER HORSEMAN of this world with acloades longer than the road from Edinburgh to London. He does not need to comit professional suicide in such a manner. There are people in this world whos "horse life" extends to owning a few horse and having a few horsey friends and no further than that.....and such people are in no position whatsoever to criticise one of the worlds greatest horsemen because they are just simply not in the same league.
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BULL.
There are some people who seem to be naturals and pick everything with with effortless ease.
There are some people who work to learn.
There are people who struggle to learn.
Given time and good training,ALL can become very good horseman.
PP is not the only one to do what he does(as you well know) just the one with the best publicist ;)

ponydentist said:
EVERY single thing that he did to that horse on that night was done for a reason with a rationale learned, honed and practiced for years with absolute proven results....And i mean everything that was done.
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Perhaps,but with no explanation given either at the time or after it is little wonder that many do not like what they are hearing,is it?
 
eventer123 said:
Here's video of Pat fighting with the horse, filmed by someone in the stands, it's absolutely terrible - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus
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Finally!
I couldn't have sat and watched that.
Whether the methods were right or wrong (personally I think totally wrong), this is not something that should be done in front of a room full of layperson horse enthusiasts.
I'd like to stick a gum line on Pepperoni himself and yank him in the mouth whilst tying his leg up.
*Speechless*
 
Ponydentist - I think bottom line about this whole thing is that people feel genuinly upset that a horse used for marketing a 'product' was put through something that does indeed sound distressing and very unneccassary. Whether people should understand the principles of what PP applies or not is neither here nor there. What has been described is tantamount to abuse. You say that that is not what you witnessed, and that is your opinion as somebody who viewd the demo first hand. However, I think that as a collective we would all agree that any situation that puts an animal under undue and unnessary stress is uncalled for.

I don't doubt that PP and LP have done some really good work with horses - bouncy balls and wavy stick things aside. However, these ever extreme methods of dealing with vulnerable animals really must stop - and I really wish that these big organisations would think twice before booking them to appear.

I would also ask PP and LP to look themselves at their methods - and question whether these big demonstrations are moving too far away from what their original intentions were. There is no place for showmanship when dealing with some of these animals - and money aside, I can't for the life of me understand why they think working horses in these large environments is helpful to that animal.

As an aside, I have watched the PP video three or four times now. The horse looks happy, relaxed and far from nervous of it's handlers. However, it is still wearing the gum twitch, so not sure how it would be reacting at this point without it.

EDT: I have now watched the short Youtube video.

COME ON PP - enough is a friggin nough!
 
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Ponydentist you are so dishonest.You are heavily into Parelli.At least be honest.The new video is now up.I shall be complaining to the BHS and the so called Festival of the Horse.
 
Originally Posted by ponydentist


"Pat Parelli....like him or loathe him...is a MASTER HORSEMAN of this world with acloades longer than the road from Edinburgh to London. He does not need to comit professional suicide in such a manner. There are people in this world whos "horse life" extends to owning a few horse and having a few horsey friends and no further than that.....and such people are in no position whatsoever to criticise one of the worlds greatest horsemen because they are just simply not in the same league."


I think Pat Parelli HAS just committed professional suicide! How ludicrous to suggest that simply because someone owns a few horses and has a few horsey friends they can't spot cruelty when they see it!

I know some old horsemen who have had horses for generations who would never resort to such extreme measures for a bridle shy horse.

The day we make someone a guru and don't question (and receive logical answers, not ones that say that we are blind or don't understand) is the day that the welfare of horses will be seriously compromised. It seems to be being bandied about that there are none so blind as those that can't see, well to my mind it is the parelli followers who are being the blind ones.

I know it is often said that it is those who have least to do with horses that can often come out with the most obvious solution that has been overlooked, I suspect any non horsey person watching the parelli's in action in this instance and the blind horse, would be rightly shocked. Perhaps it is about time the parelli followers removed their blinkers and looked honestly at the situation. For a public demonstration surely other methods should have been demonstrated, not the most extreme, violent 'solution'. What message does that send?

I was pretty ambivalent about parelli before this incident and the blind horse being hauled around and hit with ropes on its head, but wouldn't go near it now. I can't see the understanding in making a horse feel that it is about to die so that it will give in. It is a return to the barbaric methods that we were supposedly moving away from, weren't we?:(
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus

This is abuse - on so many levels.

Just because someone has an explanation for their behaviour doesn't make it right.

Remember the spouse beater always blames the beaten spouse and the child molster always declares the child 'wanted it' or 'lead them on'.

Enough already - How many times in human history do we have to repeat the same old saga. Someone with a bit of charisma/savvy/ or just plain bully does something objectionable but gets away with it because others are two much in awe of the person, or scared or worse, indifferent.

How do we get this stopped? By acting locally. Don't put up with this behaviour in your own environment and encourage others to do the same.

Think globally - report incidents and follow up. Let the RSPCA or the relevant body that your contributions to their organisation will stop unless they do something about it.

Heck - instead of posting to this forum let's flood the BHS and the RSPCA with our comments. Then they might have to take notice.
 
eahotson said:
Ponydentist you are so dishonest.You are heavily into Parelli.At least be honest.
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Surely it's totally irrelevent whether someone is 'into' Parelli or not? Ponydentist is entirely justified in putting across his views as someone who was at the demonstration. And you don't have to be 'into' something to be an admirer.

The argument here is not whether someone is a follower of the principles of Parelli - rather that abuse under any 'name' is not acceptable.
 
I don't see anything much wrong with that not even 2mins of video - can anyone else tell me what's wrong with it? I actually haven't seen anything that I would be horrified of yet.

I am absolutely 100% anti-parelli too and I actually thought that by the sounds of it he used some common sense horsemanship to assist a horse to get over an issue that it has. This is not just a small issue - lets face it, this horse has to be bridled every day to work, so this is an issue it has to face everyday. I for one am glad that they were able to help him and he can now be bridled with no stress. For the sake of a couple of hours "stress" over a couple of days, this horse now has a useful life. Imagine how much stress he would have had being bridled everyday for the next 10 years how he reacted initally. That is to say that people would have kept going for 10 years without giving up and sending him to the dogs.....
 
kira said:
I don't see anything much wrong with that not even 2mins of video - can anyone else tell me what's wrong with it? I actually haven't seen anything that I would be horrified of yet.

I am absolutely 100% anti-parelli too and I actually thought that by the sounds of it he used some common sense horsemanship to assist a horse to get over an issue that it has. This is not just a small issue - lets face it, this horse has to be bridled every day to work, so this is an issue it has to face everyday. I for one am glad that they were able to help him and he can now be bridled with no stress. For the sake of a couple of hours "stress" over a couple of days, this horse now has a useful life. Imagine how much stress he would have had being bridled everyday for the next 10 years how he reacted initally. That is to say that people would have kept going for 10 years without giving up and sending him to the dogs.....
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But parking the "abuse" issue to one side is the argument not more about this type of technique being used in a demonstration in front of X number of people, most of whom wouldn't have understood the thinking behind what he was doing, in a great big arena?
Surely following your arguement Mr P should have worked with Catwalk at home, in the quiet and "helped him". Oh wait...... thats right.................he wouldn't be making a fast £££££ from an adoring public if he did that would he?
 
Kira - think of something you hate - maybe having a plastic bag put over your head. Or put into a tank full of snakes - then let me repeat the same techniques on you to force you to submit. That would be ok wouldn't it?

It would appear that Catwalk's earlier training has been inadequate - in that it has failed. Not sure how this justifies abusing him.

Likewise not sure how our requirement to put a bridle on a horse justifies abuse either.

There are plenty of people who can educate horses without abusing them. Let's celebrate them rather than aggressive bullies.

Or does acceptance of this behaviour fall into the same bag as people who enjoy consorting with violent criminals? Because I don't understand that either.

In fact PonyDentist on one thing we do agree. You are right - I don't understand the Parelli stuff - because I don't understand bullying.

Edited to add:

In fact this reminds me of the 'Stockholm principle'. Hostages who start identifying with their captors. I think it is a survival technique. So if someone bullies their horse just because that horse 'submits' or whatever does not prove that the bullying was acceptable.

I do know an abused person who (as part of the way in which they survived emotionally) tries to justify their abusers behaviour. I also know abused dogs who still lick their abusers hands. Its all part of the survival process and it doesn't mean it justifies the abusive behaviour.
 
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Just watched the new video. To be honest, I think he's an idiot for using that horse for his demo, and I don't like the fact this went on for so long. But what I've seen there isn't so shocking, and he did release the moment that the horse responded.

I don't "like" it, but it's not on the same level as his wife battering the half blind horse, not to me anyway!

I would like to see the whole thing, though.
 
I'm not an expert, but Mr Pepperoni's body language in that vid does not come across as a passive persistent leader... clearly he's keeping out of reach for safety reasons but even I can read that he's looking nervous. To me he just comes across as a a fumbling, bumbling idiot... but that IS just my opinion.....
 
Blimey! If you can't see anything wrong with that and a horse not being able to be used the following day because of the injuries sustained from the twitch I despair!

There are KINDER ways to deal with this that do not involve a horse fearing he is going to die - it might take longer and not be the quick fix, but it doesn't mean a horse would be sent to the dogs because it takes a bit more sympathy compassion and time to get the job done!
 
I still think it is pretty poor that the vet said that catwalk was not to be used the following day but that PP was still allowed to work on him behind the scenes. It should have been one or the other IMO if it was physical injury that the vet was making the decision for.
 
I think sometimes people want an instant fix instead of spending time with the horse, getting its trust. I used to ride a VERY head shy horse after its owner used to throw brushes at it across the stable, when I went in to brush him he automatically thought I was going to throw it at him, over time I used to massage gently up his neck eventually being able to brush him on the head etc, thankfully he got sold to someone who cared for him. Maybe they need to xray his head to see if there's anything wrong with his poll etc. If they can get a headcollar on him, then if they used a bridle with clips to put the bit on, slip that on 1st then clip the bit in,

I've tried to get the parelli thing but it just looks like a circus act to me, who wants their horse to stand on a step thing like an elephant in a circus, I don't know, I have tried, its all the pazzaz thats gets me as well.

I'm afraid I would have had to walk out as well
 
I thought that one of Pat Parelli's mottos was that horses are a hunted animal and their natrual reaction is fight or flight and you need to understand and work with this. Surley by tying it's legs up he is removing the horses natural instinct of flight, therefore not working with it and leaving it the only option of fight. To me this looks like the old fashioned western way of "breaking" a horse i.e., subjecting it forcefully to what it dosn't like until it gives in, i.e., "breaks". Is this not the complete opposite to PP's teachings? I'm not against NH or twitching provided it's done for the right reasons. Not sure about tying it's legs up though, I know we lift one but thats more so that we get an early warning and can get out of the way if it tries to kick/rear, it dosn't stop it actually doing it. It just seems to me that the die harrd NH people are so closed minded to anything but and refuse to see the real issue. Would they lat PP do this to their horse or would they get the vet to check first if it had ear/teeth problems?? I think they would go stright for the PP route. I've seen the PP DVD's and they tackle horse issues but don't firt ask the fundementals i.e., is it in pain? It all assumes that the horse has had a misuded past and it's feelings are hurt!! B***ocks!!!!!!
 
Amymay I would have a little more respect for Ponydentist if he was HONEST.In general I have more respect for people who are honest even if I don't agree with/like their views.
 
I have no time for Parelli. I haven't read all the pages in this thread and, due to my only having primitive dial-up, I cannot spare the time to watch the videos.

However, it seems to me that Mr P has, again, in his efforts to amaze the world and sell his wares, gone and bitten off more than he can chew.

My seven year old son already knows that there are no quick fixes for the unfortunate horses in this world for whom an association with humans has meant pain, fear, and coercion. He has watched me work with horses and recognises that time, patience, and repetition are necessary tools in the horse-training box, and that haste, force, and impatience cause problems.

There is no way that this horse of RW's could have been 'cured' of such an obviously deep-seated problem within the time constraints of a demonstration, so why did he take it on under those circumstances?

PNH has done itself much damage recently. The eyes of the world are upon it, and not for the reasons hoped for by Mr and Mrs P. The PNH control room tells us that all is well within the empire, and that the non-believers failing to see the bigger picture will not topple them from their pedestal which is amply supported by the adoration of its homage-paying supporters.

We'll see.
 
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ponydentist said:
Do you really honestly think that a man of his standing in the horse world would publically abuse a horse....let alone a horse who belonged to someone as influential as the one that this stallion belonged to.
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Yes, he's fallen into that celebrity trap of thinking himself above reprimand or criticism, in no small part boosted by the blind worship from most of his disciples.

ponydentist said:
If you are crazy enough to think that he would wilfully abuse a horse.....tell me your reasons right here and now.
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This video (from earlier in the thread, in case you didn't see it) does it for me - that is abuse - he's bullying a scared little mare, and then hits her across the head. She could get injured on the ramp, she is terrified.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918

ponydentist said:
He does not need to comit professional suicide in such a manner.
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See, that's just it, he doesn't see it like that because he's so arrogant, he's thinks he's untouchable, he's fallen for his own press. Listen to the drivel he spouts, the parallels he draws as he works - it's not about the horse he's dealing with, it's chapter and verse from all these self-help books that flood America to boost religions and pyramid selling.

ponydentist said:
There are people in this world whos "horse life" extends to owning a few horse and having a few horsey friends and no further than that.....and such people are in no position whatsoever to criticise one of the worlds greatest horsemen because they are just simply not in the same league.
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What patronising trite nonsense. The ONLY difference between PP and hundreds of other much better horsemen/women the world over is that he is a very clever marketeer. You'll get no argument from me on the Parelli machine business acumen.


ponydentist said:
At the end of the demo 98% of the audience were still seated.
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As I wasn't there, I can only comment on the very small amount of video out there in the public forum. However, if I was sat watching what has been described (and there appears to be consensus about the tools used from both sides), I promise I would have been vocal and questioning direct to PP during the show. Someone disrespecting horses in such a manner does not deserve to be unaccountable, however rich or famous he is.
I would also have been in that 98% just to see how far he would go with the horse, and the end result.

ETA - as I have now seen the video posted with the stallion on here, I cannot see for the life of me how that experience ending in a wound to the mouth could in ANY way be a positive experience for the horse.

ponydentist said:
Please If you want to know my background and horse experience take the time and bother to read my earlier posts...(first two or three from me posted sunday morning) where i have explained who i am and my background with horses.
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Is this you telling us that you are better placed to judge PP than we are because of your vast equine experience?
By your implication, to pass educated comment, whether it be praise or criticism, you have to be on the same lofty (in your opinion) level as PP - Are you putting yourself there?

As a personal aside, I am thankfully not on PP's plane at all. The same way I will never be on the same plane as other 'horsemen' who abuse the horse. I never want to use his means to those ends. If his route was the only way to handle horses I'd never go near one again.
 
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I don't think, or ever will think, that PP is a great horseman. A great business man, yes. Horseman, no.
Someone that can't admit to being wrong has issues beyond anything i'm interested in.

I'm not justifying my reasons but if people can't see anything wrong with that video, that situation, then i dispair. I really do.

PP i hope your empire crashes and burns. But i guess it won't aslong as you have blinkered followers.

That's the last post on this topic from me, i'll go back to my extremely happy, healthy, level headed herd of horses, knowing i will never intentionally inflict such distress on them whatever they throw at me.
 
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Watched the new vid of footage from the demo. I must admit I was expecting a lot more abuse from what has been written by eye witnesses. From what I can see, there is nothing I would report TBH - I still think PP is an idiot for using the horse in a demo, but I have yet to see him wrestling with the horse, and I cannot see how he is using the gum line so cannot comment on that.
 
IMO people in PP "position" are more accountable for their actions due to the influence he has over his followers. I watched the video with not much surprise and to me it came across as a desperate attempt to pull something off in front of a paid up crowd when I should imagine even he knew it had gone too far.

With regards to the abuse side that is simple. Was the horse:

a. In distress
b. In pain
c. restrained so the above could continue.

The answer is yes to all of the above. If someone had treated a horse or pony this way at a show for example they would have been reported simple as and the excuse you don't understand is completely irrelevant.

The horse clearly had bridling problems which experience with horses tells you it takes time to cure not restrain the poor thing and force the issue because your against the clock for an expectant paying crowd. This following Linda beating a blind horse around the head I think PP followers need to take a step back make their own minds up on which parts of Parelli they wish to follow and NOT hero worship to the extent that they defend this kind of behaviour. If they are into natural horsemanship and respecting and loving horses they should have been the first ones on the phone reporting this incident not telling experience horse owners and riders they don't understand the methods. Bloody right we don't they are barbaric and outdated the real horse world moved on years ago from that.
 
See, I just don't understand this . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918

I really don't see the link between what PP was doing (swinging that rope at the mare's shoulder) and what he was asking from the horse (go into the trailer) . . . I'm no great horsewoman, but I saw a confused horse. It seemed to me that he kept "asking" the same question over and over again with little or no effect on the what/how the horse behaved (aside from avoidance).

If I ask Kali a question and it becomes clear that he isn't responding in the way that I want either because he's being stubborn, or scared, or because he's confused (or just plain "stuck"), it's my responsibility to figure out another way to ask the question. Surely, asking the same question in the same way over and over and always getting avoidance just teaches avoidance? Or am I being really thick? And what about rewarding "the try" . . . and giving the horse time to have a think . . . until tomorrow perhaps?

Really, really confused.

P
 
I was there Friday evening and would like to report what I experienced. From the point in the evening that PP ‘led’ the horse round by its tongue (he also had a halter on Catwalk and this was prior to the gumline and leg tie up) I started to feel uncomfortable. I have been interested in PP's methods and was in no way 'anti'. I have seen him at several other demos and not seen anything like this. I have heard many of his sayings.....'dignity of the horse, love, language, leadership, its about the relationship, what would the horse's mother think if she could see how it was being treated' etc so was doubly very uncomfortable with how things unfolded as I was not expecting what I saw.

I think PP started working with the horse about 7.30 pm and I walked out at 9.30 pm being unable to stand any more. Other people had left before me. After a period of trying to desensitise the horse to hands up near his head, using the pad to mimic something going back and forward across his ears PP tied up his leg and continued to try to get the bridle on. I was surprised at this and started to be concerned that the horse may fall over and hurt itself (bearing in mind it was in an arena with temporary railing and other obstacles in a strange environment so feeling even more unconfident that it might have done elsewhere).

PP was still unable to get the bridle on and kept pushing it up to its head whereupon Catwalk kept just shaking his head and the bridle would fall off. After about 20 mins of this he produced a thin black rope from his pocket and put that on by attaching it to one side of the Parelli halter, through the upper lip resting on the gum, out the other side and through the halter. PP then pulled Catwalk’s head down with the line, made him back up, led him round and repeated this for a while. (I was in a front row seat by the way). After some time doing this he started to try to put the bridle on holding Catwalk’s head in place with the gum line. Catwalk still raised his head away from the bridle though at no point in the whole demo was Catwalk ever aggressive. At this point I began to worry about the effect of all this hauling, pushing and pulling on Catwalk’s gum as it had been going on for seemingly a very long time.

As there was no improvement in Catwalk’s acceptance of bridling, PP then tied his leg up again and continued to hold the gum line and the rope on his leg and try to get the bridle on. Catwalk went down on his knees at one point, and later did indeed rear up and run away. LP came into the arena and she pulled on the rope round Catwalk’s foreleg while PP held the gum line and tried to get the bridle on. Still Catwalk attempted to avoid the bridle and I could bear no more as nearly two hours had elapsed in total and I would guess heading for an hour with the gumline on. I walked out and joined another audience member, and then two more who asked a Parelli official to intervene. He of course refused, said we didn’t understand what was going on, and asked us to step outside. We moved to outside the arena and remonstrated with the official again.

We then decided to speak to PP and ask him why he was doing this to Catwalk. We went to the back of the arena and when PP came out asked to see inside Catwalk’s mouth. He peeled back his top lip and there was bright red lesion. After putting forward our views for 10 to 15 minutes (!) and yes, we were now incensed, PP apologised for upsetting us and asked what could he do? We all said, please, just never do this to another horse ever again. The reports of the other posters who were there with PP are correct. We were then given our money back.

The next day we went to the BHS stand and asked if a vet could look at Catwalk as he was due to be used again in a demo and we wanted him checked. The BHS phoned the organisers (Festival of the Horse) who arranged for a vet to look at Catwalk. Within a hour or so the vet reported back via the BHS rep that he had examined Catwalk, yes, there was a lesion and that Catwalk would not be used in the demo the next day. (Alice Bell, Festival of the Horse 02476 858276 and Andrea Jackman, BHS 01686 627050).

Seems the world falls into two camps....you either think this is all okay or you don't. I didn't.
 
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