Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

For Naturally...

... to see what he says about flooding.
In The Truth About Horses, Andrew McLean writes:

"The rate at which horses habituate to stimuli varies widely from individual to individual, and from breed to breed. In some cases it can be increased by "flooding", or exposing the animal to extreme doses of the stimulus. Flooding is also used to tackle certain phobias in humans - people with a fear of snakes are sometimes helped when forced to confront them in the hands of a trainer - but our complex psyche and imagination confounds the success of this technique. In horses, however, it works well, and is especially effective if applied while the horse is immobile, as in the example of the wheat-box experiments (page 29)."

That quote confirms your recollection exactly.

Since then he (with Paul McGreevy) has written: "In a sensible training program, it is important not to flood the horse with aversive stimuli but to progressively habituate at the lowest thresholds of aversive pressure."

Perhaps the second quote indicates a distinction is drawn between how effective a method is and how desirable it is.

I guess one would have to ask Andrew whether he feels flooding should be used in training (and how much is acceptable), not simply whether it's effective.

Tying up Catwalk to make escape harder may have allowed flooding to be performed. Whether that is humane or represents the best of horsemanship is a different matter entirely and open to debate.
 
Having watched the video on youtube I am totally appalled by what went on, and in no way will ever see that sort of trestment as a suitable way to train a horse. RW is lucky the horse continues to perform for him in competition as it would be well within it's right to never let another human on it's back again.
 
Not read all of the threads so sorry if repeating anything or asking questions already answered!

Does Robert own the stallion? If not then I'd like to know what his owners think of the whole thing!

If he were my horse he wouldn't have stayed a minute longer with Robert or that vile Parelli fool! :mad:

Pat & Linda Parelli disgust me.:mad::mad::mad::mad:
 
Have just watched the video- terrible.
On another note, does anyone have contact details for Robert as I had a horse that was EXACTLY like this and I solved it in a much easier way. Not saying I know everything but maybe what I did might do the job.
Mine was so bad that he ran backwards through a stable wall and I sorted it within a week.
 
I think people need to think about things and maybe address the situation that this horse has had god knows what done to him in the past 7 years of his life to make him this way around his head/ears. PP did not create the problem, somebody else did that damage to the horse. The horse became more and more confident the next day and on Sunday the horse lowered his head for Rob and allowed him to bridle him - something which he has not been able to do.
To the people who make out there is some financial involvement with Rob and Georgie Spence getting into the programme, there is none! The facts are pretty clear....both have had horses that they couldn't ride. Through Parelli they now have horses they can ride and that they can compete !
Rob's horse had tried to be broken in by several professional breakers but nobody could do it. The horse was too difficult - but using a different approach turned her life around. The horse is now described as an easy ride, and jumping at shows. In my opinion - the number of talented, but misunderstood horses that would otherwise have been put down yet have been saved and are excelling because people sent them to a Parelli Professional,shows me that Parelli is not cruel etc and not any of these negative comments on here :-)
 
The horse was too difficult - but using a different approach turned her life around. The horse is now described as an easy ride, and jumping at shows.

Since Sunday? Wow! Does PP have a time machine too, or were there loads of shows yesterday?

Oh, and as Rob's horse is a stallion I would have assumed it would be classed as 'his' life not 'her' life?
 
I attended the show and what I could see was PP using force and mechanics to obtain results with the horse in order to further inflate his already over inflated ego.

Its a crying shame, I have learned from some of the horsemen and women that PP claims to have learned from and they would be taking a very dim view of his 'demonstration'

There are many talented horsemen and women out there that are catergorised under 'natural' and 'parelli' that will now be tarnished with the same brush thanks to this dire example.
 
Oh I am sorry this is now getting laughable. In essence the horse was held tight in a gum twitch while it's front leg was hobbled pinned down and forced. Stop dressing it up. It is no different than some of the more frowned on pursuits that NH followers are happy to say are disgusting.

I would be interested how the Parelli approach would cure a showjumper that knocks poles down. The Parelli Magic Show Jump pole that autoraises as the horse takes off and is covered in NH smiley prickles perhaps?
 
PP did not create the problem, somebody else did that damage to the horse. The horse became more and more confident the next day and on Sunday the horse lowered his head for Rob and allowed him to bridle him - something which he has not been able to do.

I agree with what you have said here. And agree that the PP video does show a relaxed and happy horse (imo anyway). However, the bridle was going on with the gum line in, so the horse was not totally compliant.

Again, though - from what I understand of the PP philosophy - much of what was done to the horse in the demo goes right against that philosophy. So they really do need to look at what they're about, how they achieve their results and what message they are trying to put out - because certainly at the moment that message is not clear.
 
Since Sunday? Wow! Does PP have a time machine too, or were there loads of shows yesterday?

Oh, and as Rob's horse is a stallion I would have assumed it would be classed as 'his' life not 'her' life?
That's what I thought too on first reading. JenJ must be referring to a different horse.
 
For Naturally...


In The Truth About Horses, Andrew McLean writes:

"The rate at which horses habituate to stimuli varies widely from individual to individual, and from breed to breed. In some cases it can be increased by "flooding", or exposing the animal to extreme doses of the stimulus. Flooding is also used to tackle certain phobias in humans - people with a fear of snakes are sometimes helped when forced to confront them in the hands of a trainer - but our complex psyche and imagination confounds the success of this technique. In horses, however, it works well, and is especially effective if applied while the horse is immobile, as in the example of the wheat-box experiments (page 29)."

Hi i once read an article on phobias in horses and humans too, it was a very long and detailed article about phobia transfer. This is basically if you use the method of flooding it can also increase the phobia and transfer it to other items as well.
For example: Being exposed to being forced with a bridle, as the horse is scared of being touched on the head, then becomes scared of bridles, people, arenas, travelling, leading etc etc. So dont see that as a method of curing a phobia in a horse either.
 
Oh, and as Rob's horse is a stallion I would have assumed it would be classed as 'his' life not 'her' life?[/QUOTE]


Maybe I wasn't clear or you misread. I was explaining about the horse that Originally got Rob interested in Parelli ! She was called Jewel, and she is a mare !!
 
Oh, and as Rob's horse is a stallion I would have assumed it would be classed as 'his' life not 'her' life?


Maybe I wasn't clear or you misread. I was explaining about the horse that Originally got Rob interested in Parelli ! She was called Jewel, and she is a mare !![/QUOTE]

Ok then Cruiseliner are you saying that you thought that last Fridays Demo was completely the right way forward for this horse and there is no need for concern at all?
 
I love the fact that any critcism of Parelli methods elicits the reply " you just don't understand it". Because of all the videos I've watched none of the horses seem to either! And I've yet to see any Parelli methods that make it morally superior to the majority of training techniques.
 
So the end justifies the means, does it?

Hmmm....
The problem, with horses, is that the benign appearance of the "end" can obscure and blind people to the means used to get there - although there are often tell-tale signs that the means weren't quite so benign. Horses are so adaptable and have such a large capacity to absorb suffering in silence, they can be turned into quiet, biddable, effective working animals using quite horrific and inhumane methods. I just watched a documentary about Argentinian horse breaking and rodeo - some of what goes on in their training would be illegal in this country and a lot of it looks cruel to our eyes - and yet, somehow, usable horses come out the other end.

However, just because horses can be made into "good citizens" using rough or abusive techniques, doesn't mean we have to choose that path if there are other ways - and there almost always are! - to achieve the same end.
 
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Hi everyone, I especially registered to this forum so that I could answer to this thread.
I understand that some people are appaled or disgusted by what they saw and do not believe that Pat and Linda are true horsemen. I however have a completely different opinion and would at least like to share it with you. I don't really care if this changes your mind or not, you are free to believe whatever you want, but I believe in them, all the way!
Here is what I experienced:
Pat usually always comments while he is playing with or teaching horses so it helps the spectator to make sense of what it is he is doing.
This time was very very different. I don't know how many of you actually have experience with Stallions to start with (like some stallions actually kill sick foals by biting their necks, it's hard but it's nature in it's simplest form, survival of the fittest), but this particular stallion was in the top 3 of Pat's most difficult horses he has ever met in his lifelong carreer. This lead to him to put music on so he could concentrate on the horse rather than on the public. Of course this gave a gap for the spectators and created room for misinterpretation.
It's very simple though, this horse was trying to kill him and if he wouldn't have done what he has done with the horse (and risk his life), this horse might have put quite a number of people in the hospital and even worse, he might have killed some too.
People tend to forget that horses can be extremely dangerous when overconfident or when scared, young kids get killed every year by horses, same with adults.
At a certain stage, horses can become so sick of a certain treatement and they simply go on strike, that's what this horse did. I read that a lot of you were saying he was scared, but if you read the signs, the body language of the horse, you will see that he was not scared (though difficult to see as the video has a very bad quality), he was an over condifent horse on adrenaline, he hardly moved during the whole thing and when he did it was with precision and premeditation, that is a very clear sign of domination, a bit like a kungfu master in action, and the only thing that was of interest to him was getting rid of Pat, either alive or not alive.
What Pat was doing, was not scaring the horse, but convincing him that he would persist and not give up like many other people would have. He tried different techniques to get into the mind of the horse rather than to his body. Some of the techniques did not work, but in the end he managed to get into the horses mind and was able to convince him.
If you look at the very short video of the work that was done after friday you'll see that this horse is nowhere near scared of Pat, on the contrary, this horse is very relaxed and loves being with him. And not to mention, they are able to bridle him now easily and he even won a competition this weekend!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j25pS6ixWk&feature=related

If I would have scared the **** out of you like you claim he did with this horse, would you be willing to stand with me in a relaxed way and even enjoy being with me? I don't think so.

Kind Regards all
 
this horse was trying to kill him and if he wouldn't have done what he has done with the horse (and risk his life), this horse might have put quite a number of people in the hospital and even worse, he might have killed some too.

Really, where is the evidence of that? I wonder if we are all talking about the same animal?

I think you underestimate the knowledge of most of the people on here.

he was an over condifent horse on adrenaline, he hardly moved during the whole thing and when he did it was with precision and premeditation, that is a very clear sign of domination, a bit like a kungfu master in action

Which shows just how little understanding of how horses think you have...........
 
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Oh, and as Rob's horse is a stallion I would have assumed it would be classed as 'his' life not 'her' life?


Maybe I wasn't clear or you misread. I was explaining about the horse that Originally got Rob interested in Parelli ! She was called Jewel, and she is a mare !!

Ah, got it. I wasn't aware that RW had been involved in Parelli before.
 
Let's get this rubbish stopped once and for all in the UK.

That's not really the answer, though, is it?

Dog-fighting and cock-fighting were 'stopped once and for all' and still take place. Badger-baiting still happens. Fox-hunting was banned by the belief of many that it was a cruel sport, yet foxes are still killed and by more cruel means than by hunting with hounds.

On other threads you have called for Appleby horse fair to be stopped.

Banning is obviously not the way to prevent cruelty to animals.

Stopping public exhibitions of a particular method, whether it be the belief of an individual or of a corporate machine, will only drive it underground where it cannot be accurately monitered and judged on its merits by the masses.

Surely PNH will die sooner, exposed to public scrutiny, than if it were credited with outlaw status, don't you think?
 
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This time was very very different. I don't know how many of you actually have experience with Stallions to start with (like some stallions actually kill sick foals by biting their necks, it's hard but it's nature in it's simplest form, survival of the fittest), but this particular stallion was in the top 3 of Pat's most difficult horses he has ever met in his lifelong carreer.


It's very simple though, this horse was trying to kill him and if he wouldn't have done what he has done with the horse (and risk his life), this horse might have put quite a number of people in the hospital and even worse, he might have killed some too.
People tend to forget that horses can be extremely dangerous when overconfident or when scared, young kids get killed every year by horses, same with adults.

I am sorry, but what you have just said

a) I believe Pat was outhorsed on this occasion and all his demonstration proved was sometimes the beast is bigger than the man

b) at no point did I think the stallion was a threat to Pat. I have seen a tb stallion pick a grown man up by its shoulder, like a rag doll, drag him and maul him. It was one of the most horrific things I have ever viewed and something I dont like thinking about but at NO POINT in that video does that stallion look like he is going to kill PP - he only looks terrified by him.

c) I think you have been brainwashed.
 
It's very simple though, this horse was trying to kill him and if he wouldn't have done what he has done with the horse (and risk his life), this horse might have put quite a number of people in the hospital and even worse, he might have killed some too.
People tend to forget that horses can be extremely dangerous when overconfident or when scared, young kids get killed every year by horses, same with adults.

Really? Is that what Pat & his disciples thought? Not what I saw to be honest - the horse would not have had any adverse reaction to the silly man if he hadn't been trying to incapacitate him! Fight or flight, ever heard of it?

I think most horse people understand stallions an awful lot better than Parelli followers give the rest of us credit for - especially if you all believe the horse was trying to kill him!

Ridiculous! The whole spectacle can not be justified.
 
Really, where is the evidence of that? I wonder if we are all talking about the same animal?

I think you underestimate the knowledge of most of the people on here.
I also find the assertion that the horse was trying to kill him unbelievable. Catwalk gives the strong impression throughout that he is a sensitive, but forgiving stallion. Almost no aggression is evident in the clips I have seen and he is certainly no "killer".
 
Thank you at last a Parelli follower attempting to explain rather than assume we don't understand. If Rob is now competing this horse I assume he has had a bridle on in the past has he had any fatalities due to this horse in the past using non Parelli methods?

I will agree to completely disagree.
 
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