pippinpie
Well-Known Member
No comments on this I posted yesterday?
I wish posters could use as much passion in help stamp out real abuse!
Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside
- Thread starter ponydentist
- Start date
I wish posters could use as much passion in help stamp out real abuse!
martlin
Well-Known Member
There already was thread about the rodeo, Pippinpie. I believe in appeared in Nel Lounge, Competition Riders and Latest News, has been started by Kerilli and several HHOers have signed the petition.
This thread, however is about Pat Parelli and his abuse of the horse.
This thread, however is about Pat Parelli and his abuse of the horse.
jahseh
Active Member
An awful lot of this seems to be about perception and definition. What exactly is your definition of abuse as mine and others seems to vary on both sides of yours and mine. It would be interesting to know as then we might be able to understand each other better.
martlin
Well-Known Member
from on-line dictionary
:
a·buse (-byz)
tr.v. a·bused, a·bus·ing, a·bus·es
1. To use wrongly or improperly; misuse: abuse alcohol; abuse a privilege.
2. To hurt or injure by maltreatment; ill-use.
3. To force sexual activity on; rape or molest.
4. To assail with contemptuous, coarse, or insulting words; revile.
5. Obsolete To deceive or trick.
n. (-bys)
1. Improper use or handling; misuse: abuse of authority; drug abuse.
2. Physical maltreatment: spousal abuse.
3. Sexual abuse.
4. An unjust or wrongful practice: a government that commits abuses against its citizens.
5. Insulting or coarse language: verbal abuse.
Idiom:
abuse oneself Vulgar
To masturbate.
[Middle English abusen, from Old French abuser, from abus, improper use, from Latin absus, past participle of abt, to misuse : ab-, away; see ab-1 + t, to use.]
a·buser n.
Synonyms: abuse, misuse, mistreat, ill-treat, maltreat
These verbs mean to treat wrongfully or harmfully. Abuse applies to injurious or improper treatment: "We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us" (Aldo Leopold).
Misuse stresses incorrect or unknowledgeable handling: "How often misused words generate misleading thoughts" (Herbert Spencer).
Mistreat, ill-treat, and maltreat all share the sense of inflicting injury, often intentionally: "I had seen many more patients die from being mistreated for consumption than from consumption itself" (Earl of Lytton). The army had orders not to ill-treat the prisoners. "When we misuse [a language other than our native language], we are in fact trying to reduce its element of foreignness. We let ourselves maltreat it as though it naturally belonged to us" (Manchester Guardian Weekly).
I personally used the word 'abuse' in the meaning of gross mistreatment.
:a·buse (-byz)
tr.v. a·bused, a·bus·ing, a·bus·es
1. To use wrongly or improperly; misuse: abuse alcohol; abuse a privilege.
2. To hurt or injure by maltreatment; ill-use.
3. To force sexual activity on; rape or molest.
4. To assail with contemptuous, coarse, or insulting words; revile.
5. Obsolete To deceive or trick.
n. (-bys)
1. Improper use or handling; misuse: abuse of authority; drug abuse.
2. Physical maltreatment: spousal abuse.
3. Sexual abuse.
4. An unjust or wrongful practice: a government that commits abuses against its citizens.
5. Insulting or coarse language: verbal abuse.
Idiom:
abuse oneself Vulgar
To masturbate.
[Middle English abusen, from Old French abuser, from abus, improper use, from Latin absus, past participle of abt, to misuse : ab-, away; see ab-1 + t, to use.]
a·buser n.
Synonyms: abuse, misuse, mistreat, ill-treat, maltreat
These verbs mean to treat wrongfully or harmfully. Abuse applies to injurious or improper treatment: "We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us" (Aldo Leopold).
Misuse stresses incorrect or unknowledgeable handling: "How often misused words generate misleading thoughts" (Herbert Spencer).
Mistreat, ill-treat, and maltreat all share the sense of inflicting injury, often intentionally: "I had seen many more patients die from being mistreated for consumption than from consumption itself" (Earl of Lytton). The army had orders not to ill-treat the prisoners. "When we misuse [a language other than our native language], we are in fact trying to reduce its element of foreignness. We let ourselves maltreat it as though it naturally belonged to us" (Manchester Guardian Weekly).
I personally used the word 'abuse' in the meaning of gross mistreatment.
liznpatch
Member
The whole practice is based on cr*p and its good that finally, in full public view, parelli got shown for what he is - a fraud.
liznpatch
Member
sounds like it was for the "good of parelli" trying to claw back some self respect. I hope this opens eyes of the public as to what an idiot parelli is and how is methods are just tragic abuse of people with problems which could be sorted out by a qualified, bhs instructor not some idiot with a 20 ft rope!
Shysmum
Well-Known Member
What can I say ? It's all about the horse, and also the fact that other horses may be/are being subjected to this treatment, as let's face it, it'll probably end up on the next training video.
There is an excellent thread by Janet George regarding the petition (wild horse racing) and I hope everyone does sign it, but this thread is discussing (at very great length) the Parelli issue. I don't "hate" anyone - but I have a very deep and almost concrete dislike of animal abusers, liars, arrogance and greedy people, especially who use our beloved horses to exploit that greed . Does that explain it better ?
The threads from the US (thanks so much for putting them on) are very interesting.
sm x
There is an excellent thread by Janet George regarding the petition (wild horse racing) and I hope everyone does sign it, but this thread is discussing (at very great length) the Parelli issue. I don't "hate" anyone - but I have a very deep and almost concrete dislike of animal abusers, liars, arrogance and greedy people, especially who use our beloved horses to exploit that greed . Does that explain it better ?
The threads from the US (thanks so much for putting them on) are very interesting.
sm x
snowmanbaby
Member
curiouser and curiouser
Maybe she didnt agree with ripping people off for left handed lunge lines etc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j25pS6ixWk
the guy in the blue shirt and white jumper draped fetchingly over his shoulder is James Roberts
the day after.... watch to the end
babybird68
New User
At last proof that all this so called "natural horsemanship" is a load of cobblers performed by idots !!! The only person that is a true natural horseman is Monty Roberts and only because he has years of experience and that is the key EXPERIENCE !!!
You cant teach a novice to be a natural horseman in a day or even in a clinic
It is just not that easy !! The rescue centres are full of horses with mental problems caused by well meaning humans!!
What people fail to recognise is the the horse already knows how to be a horse , we as humans have to learn to read our horses better and look to ourselves for the perceived failings of our equine friends !!!
You cant teach a novice to be a natural horseman in a day or even in a clinic
It is just not that easy !! The rescue centres are full of horses with mental problems caused by well meaning humans!!
What people fail to recognise is the the horse already knows how to be a horse , we as humans have to learn to read our horses better and look to ourselves for the perceived failings of our equine friends !!!
clicker trainner
New User
Agree with your comments that you cannot teach a novice natural horsemanship in a day, it takes years. Not sure that Monty is the only good person as saw Micheal Peace a while a ago and he was good.
Wish the parelli lot would not treat it like a religon and be open minded to other trainning methods. This really is such a negative form of working a horse and it takes the spirit out of them. If it really is that good why are all the top riders and trainners not using it? Why do the only people I know
using this method try to make their horse into a circus dog?
AengusOg
Well-Known Member
So what are you saying...that out of sight is out of mind, perhaps?
Or that it doesn't really matter what happened to one horse in England, at the hands of old PP, as there are many thousands of horses in America which suffer much worse?
In my opinion we all have to be aware of, and act on, any case where a horse is unfairly used. Perhaps old PP should be back home in the states taking care of all the needy horses you have over there, instead of trying to preach to the converted over here.
There are plenty of issues of cruelty and abuse for him to be occupied for the rest of his life over there, such as helping all the horses which are specially bred and trained to be rodeo rides, for a start. Oh, sorry, I forgot, he was one of those rodeo riders once, wasn't he, when he was trying to draw attention to himself as top cowboy? Perhaps, with old PP, it's a case of 'been there, done that, so lets take-over the world'.
Maybe it's called Parelli Natural Horsemanship because that sort of treatment of horses, historically, is kinda natural in the USA. If the old cowboy films were anything to go by, with horses going hollow backed every where, trip wires being used to take them down purely for dramatic effect on the film set, vicious use of spurs and reins according to what mood the director wanted to portray in the rider,...that's definitely the way to teach them young folks about horsemanship.
Attitudes like that caused such seemingly natural (ab)use of horses in America to be perceived as normal and acceptable by society.Of course, any person standing against such use of horses must be applauded. Old PP is driven, I'm sure, by his need to spread the word that there is a better, more humane way to get the best from horses...except he doesn't really fully believe that, does he? If he did, he would surely stick to the practices he preaches.
I have always been amused by the American attitude that they must teach the rest of the world just about everything as if they are the originators of all knowledge when, actually, non-native Americans came from all over the world originally, with their horses, to America. There was a world before America. There were good and bad horsemen all over the world before America became 'civilised', and there are good and bad horsemen still all over the world. Those who didn't go (to the States) stayed at home, working their horses very successfully. These are the people from whom we learned the 'traditional' ways, which are so much frowned-upon by novice horse owners today.
There is no shame to being a novice. It could be argued that a novice, especially if he has no preconceived ideas of something of which he knows little, may be the best student. However, there is a very strong undercurrent of distaste for 'traditional' horsemanship in PNH adherents. They seem to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater because, when asked, they actually know little or nothing of 'traditional' horsemanship.
What else could be expected, though, when old PP sets himself up as the 'true way and the light' and (apparently) will use any means to overshadow all else. His problem is, he hasn't got the time to take the time it takes.
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martlin
Well-Known Member
As much as I agree with pretty much everything you have written, the highlighted bit did make me giggle as, funny enough, that's exactly the sort of attitude I see as a British national traitSo what are you saying...that out of sight is out of mind, perhaps?
Or that it doesn't really matter what happened to one horse in England, at the hands of old PP, as there are many thousands of horses in America which suffer much worse?
In my opinion we all have to be aware of, and act on, any case where a horse is unfairly used. Perhaps old PP should be back home in the states taking care of all the needy horses you have over there, instead of trying to preach to the converted over here.
There are plenty of issues of cruelty and abuse for him to be occupied for the rest of his life over there, such as helping all the horses which are specially bred and trained to be rodeo rides, for a start. Oh, sorry, I forgot, he was one of those rodeo riders once, wasn't he, when he was trying to draw attention to himself as top cowboy? Perhaps, with old PP, it's a case of 'been there, done that, so lets take-over the world'.
Maybe it's called Parelli Natural Horsemanship because that sort of treatment of horses, historically, is kinda natural in the USA. If the old cowboy films were anything to go by, with horses going hollow backed every where, trip wires being used to take them down purely for dramatic effect on the film set, vicious use of spurs and reins according to what mood the director wanted to portray in the rider,...that's definitely the way to teach them young folks about horsemanship.
Of course, any person standing against such use of horses must be applauded. Old PP is driven, I'm sure, by his need to spread the word that there is a better, more humane way to get the best from horses...except he doesn't really fully believe that, does he? If he did, he would surely stick to the practices he preaches.
I have always been amused by the American attitude that they must teach the rest of the world just about everything as if they are the originators of all knowledge when, actually, non-native Americans came from all over the world originally, with their horses, to America. There was a world before America. There were good and bad horsemen all over the world before America became 'civilised', and there are good and bad horsemen still all over the world. Those who didn't go (to the States) stayed at home, working their horses very successfully. These are the people from whom we learned the 'traditional' ways, which are so much frowned-upon by novice horse owners today.
There is no shame to being a novice. It could be argued that a novice, especially if he has no preconceived ideas of something of which he knows little, may be the best student. However, there is a very strong undercurrent of distaste for 'traditional' horsemanship in PNH adherents. They seem to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater because, when asked, they actually know little or nothing of 'traditional' horsemanship.
What else could be expected, though, when old PP sets himself up as the 'true way and the light' and (apparently) will use any means to overshadow all else. His problem is, he hasn't got the time to take the time it takes.;D
It might come from the Empire, who knows, but the amount of times I hear and read about 'educating those people' is staggering
jahseh
Active Member
from on-line dictionary
a·buse (-byz)
tr.v. a·bused, a·bus·ing, a·bus·es
1. To use wrongly or improperly; misuse: abuse alcohol; abuse a privilege.
2. To hurt or injure by maltreatment; ill-use.
3. To force sexual activity on; rape or molest.
4. To assail with contemptuous, coarse, or insulting words; revile.
5. Obsolete To deceive or trick.
n. (-bys)
1. Improper use or handling; misuse: abuse of authority; drug abuse.
2. Physical maltreatment: spousal abuse.
3. Sexual abuse.
4. An unjust or wrongful practice: a government that commits abuses against its citizens.
5. Insulting or coarse language: verbal abuse.
Idiom:
abuse oneself Vulgar
To masturbate.
[Middle English abusen, from Old French abuser, from abus, improper use, from Latin absus, past participle of abt, to misuse : ab-, away; see ab-1 + t, to use.]
a·buser n.
Synonyms: abuse, misuse, mistreat, ill-treat, maltreat
These verbs mean to treat wrongfully or harmfully. Abuse applies to injurious or improper treatment: "We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us" (Aldo Leopold).
Misuse stresses incorrect or unknowledgeable handling: "How often misused words generate misleading thoughts" (Herbert Spencer).
Mistreat, ill-treat, and maltreat all share the sense of inflicting injury, often intentionally: "I had seen many more patients die from being mistreated for consumption than from consumption itself" (Earl of Lytton). The army had orders not to ill-treat the prisoners. "When we misuse [a language other than our native language], we are in fact trying to reduce its element of foreignness. We let ourselves maltreat it as though it naturally belonged to us" (Manchester Guardian Weekly).
I personally used the word 'abuse' in the meaning of gross mistreatment.
Well even within the dictionary definition a wide range of meaning, for myself the term has always denoted something which causes physical injury, causes permanant or long term damage or suffering mentally or physically either through positive actions and or sustained neglect or mistreatment.
When you also add in the fact that everyones perceptions of any given event are always different it's a wonder anyone ever understands each other or agrees on anything.
Having seen horses who have suffered abuse in my meaning of the word to me calling what happened with Catwalk abuse doesn't add up, the two just don't compare.
When you add in the perception issue this is even more contentious as some people have said that; that is what they can tell actually happened, with talk of wounds, broken spirit, twiches, hobbles drugs etc. etc. which no matter how much I look at the evidence available to me I just can't see.
When you then add in the vociferous personal attacks on the parellis not just in the context of this demonstration but about their business model, personal presentation, history, relationship etc. it all becomes very ugly and unedifying. Indeed lots of what has been said although not by any means all could definitely be classed as abuse as in 4 of the dictionary meaning in your post and in my terms. If you then add in the fact that the generalisation has spread to anyone who uses any of the techniques parelli teaches (and even in some instances using any of their equipment) I can definitely see why Robert Whittaker might say it has been blown out of all proportion.
Lots of old adages come to mind like innocent until proven guilty, treat others as you would like them to treat you, look to the log in your own eye before worrying about the speck in your brothers etc. etc. Now I suspect I will be accused of all sorts of things form arrogance through ignorance and patronization (is that even a word) and should prepare myself for lots more abuse from some!
martlin
Well-Known Member
You're not going to get shouted at by me.
I have stated in what context I have used the word 'abuse', in fact, if you have a look at my previous posts on that subject, you will see that I in general try not to determine if Catwalk's treatment amounts to abuse or not.
I have also absolutely nothing against making money, I believe, however, that the demo in question was near enough professional and PR suicide.
Basically, PP doesn't practise what he preaches, he should not be particularly surprised that people where dissatisfied to say the least, his behaviour was inappropriate and distasteful.
Bryant
New User
Sounds awful.
thehobbling part neways!!
i think you can train any horse if you repeat things enough, so it understands itll be allryt and gain its trust. I dont think you should fall hook line and sinker for one training method i think you should use a mix of methods to find out what is right for your horse! I definately don't agree with abuse or stopping them from being able to do their natural flight response by tying their legs up that is ridiculous! But im not against twitching although you are only suppose to twitch for 20 minutes at a time- but it does release endorphins so although it doesnt look nice, if a horse is dangerous to handle e.g. when clipping i arnt against it as it relaxes them so will cause less trauma for them and possibly less damage to horse and/or handler!
I think parelli needs to make a public apology as this sounds like it was far from the kind and natural methods we usually see the parellis use!
thehobbling part neways!!
i think you can train any horse if you repeat things enough, so it understands itll be allryt and gain its trust. I dont think you should fall hook line and sinker for one training method i think you should use a mix of methods to find out what is right for your horse! I definately don't agree with abuse or stopping them from being able to do their natural flight response by tying their legs up that is ridiculous! But im not against twitching although you are only suppose to twitch for 20 minutes at a time- but it does release endorphins so although it doesnt look nice, if a horse is dangerous to handle e.g. when clipping i arnt against it as it relaxes them so will cause less trauma for them and possibly less damage to horse and/or handler!
I think parelli needs to make a public apology as this sounds like it was far from the kind and natural methods we usually see the parellis use!
martlin
Well-Known Member
Gum twitch is a completely different kettle of fish than lip twitch though...
teddyt
Well-Known Member
Im not sure about the point youre making here??
jahseh
Active Member
Didn't think I would from you, throughout your posts as far as I can see or remember you have always been resonable and temperate in your views, language etc. and you stick to specifics and don't paint with a broad brush. I agree with much of what you have said but remain amazed at the prejudice, abuse, dogma and downright nastiness about various things and from various points of view from SOME posters.
pippinpie
Well-Known Member
No, I was trying to make the point that I hope people would use as much passion towards other more needy abuse cases as they have in this thread.
I have not seen any other threads about the 'Rodeo', so glad if people have seen it and signed to help stop it.
snowmanbaby
Member
people were asking if James Roberts had anything to do with P.P. and if he really was there, or not... see pages 89 and onwards ...
baymareb
Well-Known Member
There was a question earlier about what the reaction to all this was in America. As an American, I can say there is a good deal of discussion about it, among people at riding centers and on American message boards.
Virtually every message board that I use or follow has had at least one - usually more - thread about this. The vast majority of people posting were appalled and angry. People at my boarding facility are talking about it and again, the majority are upset.
There is a perception among some that Americans as a whole embrace the natural horsemanship movement generally and the Parellis specifically. That could not be further from the truth. While NH has caught on in many sectors of the horse world, it is far from being universal. The Parellis in particular generate much controversy here and there is a large sector of the American horse world that has never been happy with their methods. This incident has only confirmed what many already felt.
There is also the perception that the majority of Americans have traditionally followed the "Wild West" break-em and beat-em philosophy of horse training. That too is incorrect. The great majority of Eastern trainers and handlers have gentled horses for generations using slow, sensible methods that include handling from birth and patient work leading to a calm and easy backing at the age of about 4. Many, many trainers and handlers in the western and midwestern states do the same and while NH advocates claim that the methods are meant to replace those "cowboy" methods, the truth is those methods weren't being practiced much anymore anyway.
Hope that helps give you a sense of the feeling over here, at least from where I live and ride.
Virtually every message board that I use or follow has had at least one - usually more - thread about this. The vast majority of people posting were appalled and angry. People at my boarding facility are talking about it and again, the majority are upset.
There is a perception among some that Americans as a whole embrace the natural horsemanship movement generally and the Parellis specifically. That could not be further from the truth. While NH has caught on in many sectors of the horse world, it is far from being universal. The Parellis in particular generate much controversy here and there is a large sector of the American horse world that has never been happy with their methods. This incident has only confirmed what many already felt.
There is also the perception that the majority of Americans have traditionally followed the "Wild West" break-em and beat-em philosophy of horse training. That too is incorrect. The great majority of Eastern trainers and handlers have gentled horses for generations using slow, sensible methods that include handling from birth and patient work leading to a calm and easy backing at the age of about 4. Many, many trainers and handlers in the western and midwestern states do the same and while NH advocates claim that the methods are meant to replace those "cowboy" methods, the truth is those methods weren't being practiced much anymore anyway.
Hope that helps give you a sense of the feeling over here, at least from where I live and ride.
pippinpie
Well-Known Member
An excellent post BMb.
I do feel embarrassed at the way some Brits on this thread 'shoot their mouth off' without engaging their brains first.
I do feel embarrassed at the way some Brits on this thread 'shoot their mouth off' without engaging their brains first.
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pippinpie
Well-Known Member
Just a quick explanation about 'left handed lunge lines' that some can't seem to get their heads around.
What you are referring to is the 45' rope, this rope is made with a particular twist in it so that it can be coiled up in a certain way to keep it in a tidy 'circle' for easy of carrying/use and if you are left handed this is very difficult and the twist will work against you making it impossible to coil it up, so left handed ropes are made with the twist going in the opposite direction.
No con!
Simple really
What you are referring to is the 45' rope, this rope is made with a particular twist in it so that it can be coiled up in a certain way to keep it in a tidy 'circle' for easy of carrying/use and if you are left handed this is very difficult and the twist will work against you making it impossible to coil it up, so left handed ropes are made with the twist going in the opposite direction.
No con!
Simple really
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Shysmum
Well-Known Member
Thanks, BmB, really interesting. It was hard to get a true perspective, having read the almost "cult like" posts on some of the sites I've read, and somehow - it just didn't ring true.. thanks so much sm x
pippinpie
Well-Known Member
James Roberts is one of the UK's top Parelli Professionals, He is extremely well thought of in all disciplines and is an excellent horse starter and has his own very successful career.
He is the one that Robert Whitaker took his horses to when he had a problem and James has helped many non-Parelli members.
PS. James Roberts was sitting with Robert Whitaker through the entire Demo with Catwalk, and he helped work with Catwalk the next day as you all saw in the Video.
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snowmanbaby
Member
SO ROBERT WHITAKER W A S THERE THEN, ... AND THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE DEMO???
not what Robert Whitaker says himself... but are you his spokesperson??
snowmanbaby
Member
As much as I agree with pretty much everything you have written, the highlighted bit did make me giggle as, funny enough, that's exactly the sort of attitude I see as a British national trait
It might come from the Empire, who knows, but the amount of times I hear and read about 'educating those people' is staggering
MARTLIN... just got to say... I have loved every post you have written... you are fantastic... would so love to meet you... you make me smile every day... and know and take comfort from that there are still, thankfully, plenty of lovely people like you out there!
xxx
Echo Bravo
Well-Known Member
So Robert Whittaker was there all the time, WELL! WELL! WELL!. Makes you wonder about true horsemanship or the money in showjumping!!
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
"left handed lunge lines" aren't lunge lines, they are roping lariats. That's why the twist is so important. They just happen to use them for groundwork in Parelli.
snowmanbaby
Member
PRIDE... DIGNITY... HUMILIATION...all the same emotion just in differing levels of positive, neutral, or negative. P.P. HIMSELF COMMENTED that he stopped and PRESERVEDM CATWALKS dignity... (MY ARSE...) the horse had been bullied and man handled for hours... no dignity there... but this is a game of semantics... SO p.p can use the term "dignity, or pride" (positive words) but not "humiliation" same emotion, just different terms...
back me up here friends... SO... P.P. accepts that dignity and pride are acceptable terms.... but "humiliation" which I fear is the foundation for much of his teaching... is NOT SOMETHING HORSES UNDERSTAND...
Get a dictionary!!!!!!!!!!! hypocrite....
again... the same old ... same old... we will use words we LIKE... but not what we don't like... (thinking.... cheque book..,.. idiot unexperienced people messing horses up... but OH... the English Language is PRIVATE TO PARELLI.. LET'S SEE..,. GAMES.... usually means happiness and fun... NOT in the Parelli Bible .. they have their own dictionary... we sad individuals did not pcik up on throughout our lives with horses...
PRIDE ... DIGNITY... HUMILIATION.... FEAR.....
So NOW Parelli can EVEN argue with the dictoniary .... and pick and choose the words they like to promote their money spinning.
SORRY.m but if PAT PARELLI HIMSELF... in ALL of this can write to the worlds public at large,. talking about the horses' "DIGNITY" then I too can comment on the horses; humiliation... same emotion, just different levels...
THAT HORSE WAS ABUSED AND HUMILIATED. FULL BLOOMING STOP. AND SOMEONE WROTE A CHEQUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!