Parelli - yay or neigh?

[[139672]]

This is the one eyed horse

I had a horse with one eye missing. This is so awful to watch, it has made me cry. What a disgusting person. Would love to give her a peace of my mind and a punch to be honest ?

 

[[139672]]

A neigh from me. A friend home bred a lovely gelding. She had to sell him and his new owner did Parelli with him. Someone told me that he ended up looking awful, depressed and just plodded as if he was not enjoying life. Very sad ?

 

[doodle]

Waving a rope and knocking them on the chin to get them to go back? I say “back” and if need be point at his chest??

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I know absolutely nothing about Parelli so excuse the numpty question but how do they manage to close horses down by waving sticks with plastic bags at their heads and what is it supposed to achieve?

The horses close down because they stop doing the release part or pressure and release. So it becomes learnt helplessness.

I once saw a very sad video that showed how effective LH is with horses. It involved a man throwing a plastic garden chair at a horse that was tied solid (so no real hope of the horse breaking away from where it was tied) repeatedly. At first the horse thrashed and plunged and tried to escape. Then as the chair continued to be thrown it just stopped and accepted that there was nothing it could do to get away. So it stood stock still and shut down as the chair was thrown again and again. Essentially the horse learnt that its situation was hopeless, there was nothing in its power that it could do to change the situation, it learnt that it was helpless. Hence the name 'learnt helplessness'.

Now just swap the chair for a tarp, a whip with a bag or whatever. Give the horse no choice but to put up with whatever you are doing and that is LH training.

 

[mariew]

Nope from me. I haven't had a lot of exposure but I knew a parelli fan who uses to give lessons to one of the other ladies on the yard. They would carry on for over two hours with groundwork and carrot sticks! No creature can focus intensly that long without switching off surely.

 

[saalsk]

Oh goodness Meowy Catkin, that is so awful

Totally agree with the learned helplessness and shut down. It is sad to see, and even more sad that it is not uncommon.

Teaching them to cope with somewhat freaky situations is one thing, but not letting them escape isn't helping anyone.

I saw, I think on here, probably the friday social media thingies, of a foal having their feet trimmed ( well, handled etc ) and the foal had 2 done, then got all sleepy, and had a nap while the (fabulous) farrier did the other 2 while it was on the ground. What a fab way to teach a horse about life. Total opposite to a livery I saw who had to give her horse sedalin using a twitch, to allow the vet close enough to give an I/M sedative, to allow same vet close enough to give I/V sedative, so it could have its shoes changed. Every 6 weeks. So different from a clip on here where the horse is picking up feet as the farrier goes past, just in case that is the foot he wants - which was so lovely to see. Happy horse, standing quietly, nice farrier, pleased owner, all calm.

 

[CMcC]

I am pretty sure there are a lot more horses mentally and physically damaged by people using traditional “breaking” and training methods and management regimes that think it is OK to stable a horse 24/7 for months on end than a few silly women waving carrot sticks with plastic bags tied to them.

Pat Parelli didn’t invent anything he (cleverly) packaged what are generally known as natural horsemanship methods into a system and sold himself and later his wife as a brand.

You can study/practice the methods by learning with very many great horsemen and women and in my experience develop a young horse into a soft, willing and co-operative ridden horse. Groundwork is very often the basis of these methods and is a great grounding (excuse the pun) for ridden work.

Having a horse and not riding is not a crime it is a choice.

 

[Cortez]

I am pretty sure there are a lot more horses mentally and physically damaged by people using traditional “breaking” and training methods and management regimes that think it is OK to stable a horse 24/7 for months on end than a few silly women waving carrot sticks with plastic bags tied to them.

Pat Parelli didn’t invent anything he (cleverly) packaged what are generally known as natural horsemanship methods into a system and sold himself and later his wife as a brand.

You can study/practice the methods by learning with very many great horsemen and women and in my experience develop a young horse into a soft, willing and co-operative ridden horse. Groundwork is very often the basis of these methods and is a great grounding (excuse the pun) for ridden work.

Having a horse and not riding is not a crime it is a choice.

I'm also pretty sure that there are a lot more horses trained to high levels by traditional methods of horsemanship than by Parelli's, and lots of horses kept in stables that aren't deprived of water until they die. Having a horse at all is a choice. What's your point?

 

[Palindrome]

It's also very readily available to watch on the Internet so people watch 10 mins of a demo then think they can do it. The number of people I've seen chasing horses around and calling it 'join up'......

That's what join up is though? You chase the horse around until he is tired and then he follows you because he wants to stop being chased.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I was tasked with buying a horse for a friend years ago. Mother of 2 young children and novice rider/owner. She needed a teenage cobby type, but no, she set her heart on on 4 year old Haflinger mare and bought it without my input. It was Parelli trained and delivered by the Parelli expert who was also the vendor.

I soon realised that Haflinger and Parelli should never be spoken of in the same sentence. On arrival it would not unload off the trailer. Parelli trainer told me the mare was expressing her feelings and we must listen. I pointed out I was busy, it was peeing down and I still had 4 horses to exercise so please can you get it off and stuff it in a stable ! mNo, we must wait until the mare was confident to unload. A few minutes later the mare decided to bite the parelli trainer and sunk her teeth into the front of the puffa jacket she was wearing, picking her up and chucking her through the jockey door. My comment of 'looks like the mare just expressed her feelings' didn't go down well. I urged my friend to call the sale off but the horse had been paid for and she was adamant she wanted to go ahead. My thoughts turned to trying to remember where my blue pipe was and a sinking feeling that all was not going to end well. It certainly didn't.

I had it on the yard for about 8 months, during which time it put both front feet through a window, walked through endless fencing, would gallop at anyone it could see and not make any attempt to go around the person, both ends of it were dangerous. It refused to be tied up until I chained it to the wall with a nylon headcollar. It instantly gave up and stood quietly. It was so intelligent it knew when it would get hurt so just gave in. If I tied it to twine it just cleared off.

Looking back I think the intelligence of the haflinger breed combined with the Parelli training actually resulted in an angry but highly intelligent horse who had worked out how to manipulate its handlers. Leading it was impossible, it just stood up and boxed at me before using its shoulder to shove me off balance and then it would clear off with a straight neck and a passing lash out with hinds. The owner was terrified of it and I was terrified it would hurt the owners children so forbid the children to come onto the yard. It was 8 months I will never forget and has left me with a hatred of Haflingers and Parelli.

 

[Shilasdair]

at your Haflinger/Parelli story.

 

[Gloi]

It was 8 months I will never forget and has left me with a hatred of Haflingers and Parelli.

Hmm. My experience of Haflingers is - all the bad things about a traditional coloured cob and none of the good, but in orange.

 

[AdorableAlice]

at your Haflinger/Parelli story.

Scarred and scared me for life Shilasdair !! What on earth did they do to that pony. The vendor bred it and 'trained' it. It was just 4 when it came to me.

 

[Shilasdair]

Scarred and scared me for life Shilasdair !! What on earth did they do to that pony. The vendor bred it and 'trained' it. It was just 4 when it came to me.

Poor horse - did it find a better future, do you know?

Clever horses like that aren't that hard to train - one of mine is on Preds for life - I have 'trained' her to take her medication by the subtle signal of shaking the oral syringe at her and shouting 'drugs!' so she knows to come and open her mouth for me. I'm far too lazy to catch her.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Poor horse - did it find a better future, do you know?

Clever horses like that aren't that hard to train - one of mine is on Preds for life - I have 'trained' her to take her medication by the subtle signal of shaking the oral syringe at her and shouting 'drugs!' so she knows to come and open her mouth for me. I'm far too lazy to catch her.

Sadly no it didn't.

 

[HappyHollyDays]

Thanks for explaining that Meowy Catkin, I can understand exactly why they close down now. People are just barbaric.

 

[Caol Ila]

That's what join up is though? You chase the horse around until he is tired and then he follows you because he wants to stop being chased.

My favourite study ever is one where some animal behaviourists put a horse in a round pen with a remote control car, and the car chased the horses, following the 'join up' rules of releasing pressure when the horse looks at the trainer, until they started following the little cars around. It debunked the theory that join up = herd dynamics. The researches postulated instead that it was straight up operant conditioning. Horse works out that trainer stops chasing it when it follows trainer.

 

[ycbm]

That's what join up is though? You chase the horse around until he is tired and then he follows you because he wants to stop being chased.

I don't think so. IMO join up is just what must domesticated horses do unless you chase them away from you.
.

 

[TheHairyOne]

I bought one that someone had obviously done some of this with (not in the advert, but confirmed on viewing). In his case I just dont think they had done anything regularly enough to totally ahut him down, but the single most frustrating thing about him was the fact he wanted to walk directly behind you anytime you were trying to take him anywhere. No, I dont want to be in your way when you might spook and run me over and I cant see you at all thanks horse! Took 6 months before that habit nearly disappeared.

In my experience it does seem to be the domain of the scared/directionless horse owner for the odd training attempt Ive seen at yards.

However, as with most training, there is almost certainly little nuggets of useful bits to pull from it. In my opinion though its hidden far too well in all of the Parelli stuff Ive encountered.

Its a no from me!

 

[spacefaer]

 

[honetpot]

In my opinion, horsemanship is something you learn from horses, they train us. They know how to be a horse, and really there is not a lot we can do to modify basic survival instincts, but a good horseman learns to predict the likely reaction to a stimulus to get the desired result, and the least stress to the animal and them.
Watching good stockman with cattle or sheep, it's the same principles but in a simpler form. There is something amazing watching someone with a bent bit of stick point it in the right place, a few clucks, and an animal who they have never seen before moves the right way and loads its self. Someone with no idea will get them moving the wrong way, and everyone ends up chasing them around.
Although we can hopefully learn new things, the basic skills of traditional methods can just be about used by anyone, as long as they go slowly. I broke my first pony when I was twelve, I am not suggesting it was going to compete at a high level, but in the space of roughly six months it went from being uncatchable, it took six of us to herd it out of a field and into stable, to being ridden in traffic, hacked everywhere and sold as a childs pony, where it continued to progress. This was all done from a book from the school library, and as it was done with bits of bailer twine to long line and mostly on my own, I can say just about anyone with a degree of patience could have done it.
I have watched Monty Roberts, and there was some other chap at the British Racing School who had a colt doing some amazing things, but is what they do easily repeatable for the average person, probably not. Everyone is in such a hurry to get things done, when really you can only go as fast, as the horse's ability to adapt allows you to, and if you are consistent, and I was taught, block the line of least resistance, so enabling it to 'choose' what you want it to do.
We bought one that was 'natural horsemanship' trained and yes they do try and follow on your heels, which is worrying when they are a maxi-cob, but as I often work on my own I often lead them out without a headcollar, especially youngstock.

 

[Lois Lame]

So, a group of ladies at the yard are really into Parelli. Train their horses using a carrot stick and all sorts of other items. I will admit to knowing next to nothing about this method and am slightly bemused by it.

I'd love to hear other's thoughts, views and experiences. Is it worth doing? Does it make a huge difference in a positive way?

It's not for me.

Many moon ago I went to have a look at a gelding locally, belonging, as it turned out, to the principle of the nearby primary school.

I fell in love with the horse for some bizzaar reason -- well he was a stocky brown fellow of 15-ish hands, just right for me. His name was Toddy*. I rode him and loved it. I asked for a trial and got it, 2 weeks (or was it a month?).

At that initial showing, Mr Smithers (not his real name) told me that he practises parelli. I'd never been into Parelli, I told him, and he set to and showed me The Seven Games.

Games my foot. Toddy hated it. I wondered why Mr Smithers enjoyed pi^%$g off his horse.

But, funnily enough, Toddy seemed to benefit from occasionally being put in his place. Mr Smithers had never had a moment's bother with his gelding (I mean his horse. Mr Smithers himself had never been gelded and in fact had quite a reputation around the place, I heard much later).

I never did end up buying the horse because we fell out, Toddy and I. About one week into the trial, Toddy seemed to give me the evil eye when walking down the track from one of the paddocks to the yards. I started to feel that he didn't respect me. in fact, I started to feel that he wanted to kill me. I lost all confidence and went cold.

Mr Smithers couldn't understand it.

My husband told me later, Mr Smithers is a school principle. He's no shrinking violet. There's no way that you are going to be able to handle Toddy in the way that he does, and that horse probably has no respect for you." Or words to that effect. I felt that my partner was right.

Apart from all of that, I recently read on here that ... well, some well-known American 'horseman' uses the deprivation of water as a means of controlling horse behaviour. I (to put it mildly) am not impressed.






* Not really

 

[Skib]

My observation, having helped on a livery yard is that the owners of problem horses turn for help to people like Parelli or Monty Roberts and then the subsequent misbehaviour of those same horses gives NH a bad name.
I learned to ride as an adult and was urged to watch as many NH demos as I could.

I learned how horses learn and how to teach them things. In my 2 years of riding lessons, mostly BHS, no RI showed me that. And as far as I could tell from riding out with staff doing their BHS stages, BHS still does not show students that. Whereas so called NH uses behaviourism, similar to what one does when raising one's children.

I therefore paid for my grand daughter to have some lessons from a Parelli style trainer.
I once went to a demo where a trainer explained the draw backs of Parelli training because of the constant yielding of the quarters and signals with the rope. Yielding of the quarters" is still a mystery to me as it is horse talk. But this made me wary of systems.

In a Rashid demos he used to handle horses he had never seen before. And I reckon horses behaved for me because they think I am Rashid, whereas I am only imitating him. This suggests that it is body language that matters. If it hadnt been for Covid I had been going to try some free work with a rope and whip. But neither of those things is part of my own body. So perhaps not wise.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I learned horsemanship by watching other people, who were good at it, handling horses and, following their rules, where appropriate. I am thinking particularly of the couple who ran the RS where I learned to ride, the wife especially was very keen on keeping the children that she was teaching safe while expecting us to handle the horses/ponies, so we quickly learned to do it 'her way'.

Then much later, volunteering with RDA, I was able to watch the RI and her husband, a farmer, handling horses in a similar way to the first couple. They were of similar ages and used to hunt together, as it happened, but they all 4 knew horses/stock and the best, quietest way to work with them, to get the best out of them.

At RDA, the horses could be set off from the yard, as a herd, down the track back to their field. RI stood at the yard gate, watched them, told off any who stopped to grab more than a bite of grass on the way, or who went faster than a walk - and they all did as they were told - and then sent one of her children to shut the field gate after them.

No fancy equipment needed, just a knowledge of horses and their body language.

 

[Shilasdair]

My observation, having helped on a livery yard is that the owners of problem horses turn for help to people like Parelli or Monty Roberts and then the subsequent misbehaviour of those same horses gives NH a bad name.
I learned to ride as an adult and was urged to watch as many NH demos as I could.

I learned how horses learn and how to teach them things. In my 2 years of riding lessons, mostly BHS, no RI showed me that. And as far as I could tell from riding out with staff doing their BHS stages, BHS still does not show students that. Whereas so called NH uses behaviourism, similar to what one does when raising one's children.

I therefore paid for my grand daughter to have some lessons from a Parelli style trainer.
I once went to a demo where a trainer explained the draw backs of Parelli training because of the constant yielding of the quarters and signals with the rope. Yielding of the quarters" is still a mystery to me as it is horse talk. But this made me wary of systems.

In a Rashid demos he used to handle horses he had never seen before. And I reckon horses behaved for me because they think I am Rashid, whereas I am only imitating him. This suggests that it is body language that matters. If it hadnt been for Covid I had been going to try some free work with a rope and whip. But neither of those things is part of my own body. So perhaps not wise.

You've raised a few interesting points.
Firstly - that in 2 years of BHS riding lessons, no one showed you how horses learn, or how to teach them things. To be honest with you, the purpose of a riding lesson is not for you to teach the riding school horse (who will know more than you can possibly imagine) but for you to learn to ask the right question for the horse to answer you.

In terms of systems - all schools of horsemanship (and there are as many as countries) has a system of training, the best known perhaps being the German school, but also think about Spanish Riding School. The stages in the systems roughly correlate to the competitive levels in disciplines, although there are differences in method.

Be VERY wary of demonstrations where the guru claims 'never to have seen the horse before'. I haven't witnessed Rashid, so perhaps he is the exception to the rule, but certainly two of the largest proponents of 'natural horsemanship' have extensive sessions in the mornings before the demo, picking the most placid and cooperative horses, and training them repetitively so that they repeat the intended behaviour in front of the crowd. I worked for a large equestrian organisation, and so have seen this personally.

And regarding 'free work with a rope and a whip' - to what end? What do you want the horse to do? The whip should be an extension of a natural aid, or used to reinforce it. You need to think very carefully about what you want to achieve as your post suggests you are unclear.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I read this thread yesterday and resisted the temptation to reply as I can be less than polite and rather rude to be honest, when ever I hear those words Natural Horsemanship. Fortunately most of you have said what I think. I no longer have interest, respect or even mild curiosity about ANY of the so called natural horsemanship 'experts'. I have heard and witnessed the aftermath of too much of it sadly.

However I am always really keen to listen to any advice and alternatives methods to the ones I have settled with over the years...IF that person is renowned in the horse circles I frequent for being an excellent horseman or horsewoman. Now your talking - good old fashioned horse sense and happy to share with anyone humble and wise enough to listen - for free!

I and my husband both walked out of a Parelli demonstration here in Ireland just a few years back, sadly very small numbers of the huge audience seemed to see the abuse and downright cruelty we were seeing.

I have also bought a 'natural horsemanship' 10 year old mare back in the day when this gumph started to become very popular. It only took her about 3 years to totally recover from being completely shut down and minus any opinion of her own...poor bloody mare had never been allowed to actually just 'be' a horse.

The best one of all from me. A comment from a Natural horsemanship trainer who sold her wisdom to the gullible. "I always ask my horse for permission to ride them, if they tell me they dont want to be ridden then I dont ride them" Jaysus! Consequently she very rarely actually rode and seemed VERY nervous on the rare occasions that she did.

If I only ever rode when my horses gave me permission they would be delighted to loll about in the field chuckling to themselves!

 

[Buster2020]

The yard manger In my yard is mad into parelli . It not for me but I don’t pass judgement on people who train on that style.

 

[Pedantic]

Going to be good and bad in any type of training, and because humans are involved their will always be abuse and stupidity involved from some, I tend to think it if works for you and isnt cruel and abusive, make use of it, who cares what its called.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

The yard manger In my yard is mad into parelli . It not for me but I don’t pass judgement on people who train on that style.

Oh but I do - whenever I get the opportunity - in exactly the same way I pass judgement on any person or group of people who practice animal abuse openly and without any true conception of how much long term emotional and psychological damage they are doing to that animal.

 

[Lurfy]

It's a no from me. He has a bit of a used car salesman vibe selling shonky cars. I don't like his methods at all.