Patrick Kittell..

[chestnut cob]

Personally, as far as I can see, her commentary is horrifically biased. But clearly she is more in keeping with the judges beliefs than I am

Biased in what way? I'd say she's erring on the side of caution but she *did* comment about BTV and lack of fluency in the test. Did you really expect her to say "this guy trains his horses in the most horrible way and that is borne out by the fact his horse is constantly BTV and pulled in"...??!

 

[Rosehip]

Seriously! You guys have nothing better to do than pick pick pick at a professional rider who occasionally puts his horses in a hyperflexed position for a time during warm up or training. All of the video's I have seen on him have blatantly been cut together to 'show' that he is in rolkur for much longer than he actually is. And on the vid I saw on the daily mail site there were 3 other riders using hyperflexion in their warm up - I notice the camera didnt pan to them.

If people want something to rant about, go out and see the obese ponies in fields of ragwort, emaciated ponies locked in stables full off their own feaces, show ponies tied in side reins to ensure they look 'on the bit' and have topline, jumpers with spiked boots and blisters...look at the Big Lick video's on Youtube!!

If a few moments of hyperflexion are all you have to worry about then you are lucky!

My mare puts herself into rolkur when she is excited and evading the bit!

 

[JFTDWS]

Biased in what way? I'd say she's erring on the side of caution but she *did* comment about BTV and lack of fluency in the test. Did you really expect her to say "this guy trains his horses in the most horrible way and that is borne out by the fact his horse is constantly BTV and pulled in"...??!

Not at all, I actually meant during CDJ's test which was obviously very highly scoring but it wasn't perfect. I would also have liked her not to say "good girl" every fifteen sodding seconds and to acknowledge that there were less than perfect moments (as she has for every other rider). Patriotism is very admirable, but they have a duty to some degree of impartiality.

(And no, I did not expect comments on rollkur on commentary. That would be grossly improper.)

 

[tallyho!]

Regardless of our opinion of how he trains, I suppose it would be unsporting of the crowd to do something that would potentially put the horse or rider off their test.

Disappointed not to see turned backs. I guess the message didn't get there in time.

A sad day for horses. This could have been the time to highlight what goes on to a potentially large audience.

It isn't the end. More dressage in next few days. there is still plenty of commentary to come. Campaigners have not lost the battle yet

Say no to rollkur!!

 

[JFTDWS]

Opening a can of worms but if you don't support it why watch? Even if you say you are watching for reaction of crowds or to see him F'up you are still watching???

Very good point. I'm transfixed. I want to turn over, but I keep hoping I will see something better.

fwiw, I've enjoyed the Spanish and Portugese contributions thus far.

 

[Jesstickle]

Seriously! You guys have nothing better to do than pick pick pick at a professional rider who occasionally puts his horses in a hyperflexed position for a time during warm up or training. All of the video's I have seen on him have blatantly been cut together to 'show' that he is in rolkur for much longer than he actually is. And on the vid I saw on the daily mail site there were 3 other riders using hyperflexion in their warm up - I notice the camera didnt pan to them.

If people want something to rant about, go out and see the obese ponies in fields of ragwort, emaciated ponies locked in stables full off their own feaces, show ponies tied in side reins to ensure they look 'on the bit' and have topline, jumpers with spiked boots and blisters...look at the Big Lick video's on Youtube!!

If a few moments of hyperflexion are all you have to worry about then you are lucky!

My mare puts herself into rolkur when she is excited and evading the bit!

Rosehip, you genuinely surprise me.

Do you not think that with dressage particularly teetering on the brink of being thrown out of the Olympics this sort of thing is terrible for equestrianism?

Do you want to be represented in sport by people using these techniques? I certainly don't want people to think that is what horse riding is about. We suffer enough 'posh/rich/snooty' stereotypes already. Do we also need cruel thrown in with those?

 

[WoopsiiD]

Very good point. I'm transfixed. I want to turn over, but I keep hoping I will see something better.

fwiw, I've enjoyed the Spanish and Portugese contributions thus far.

I can see that point of view too!
I will admit a bit of me wanted to watch him but it non horsey OH who mentioned that the watching figures don't count how many are watching to enjoy and how many are watching to boo. Would be good if it did though!!

I watched a few before PK and was amazed at some of the skills of the Spanish and Portugese too. They still made it look like a dance between horse and rider.

 

[pookie]

Seriously! You guys have nothing better to do than pick pick pick at a professional rider who occasionally puts his horses in a hyperflexed position for a time during warm up or training.

I hope you're complaining about people with "nothing better to do" on every other thread, including those far more trivial than this.

If a few moments of hyperflexion are all you have to worry about then you are lucky!

I'm not sure we're restricted to one issue of concern each.

 

[chestnut cob]

Not at all, I actually meant during CDJ's test which was obviously very highly scoring but it wasn't perfect. I would also have liked her not to say "good girl" every fifteen sodding seconds and to acknowledge that there were less than perfect moments (as she has for every other rider). Patriotism is very admirable, but they have a duty to some degree of impartiality.

(And no, I did not expect comments on rollkur on commentary. That would be grossly improper.)

I agree there, I did notice the "good girl" bits. Sounded more like she was giving her a lesson!

 

[tallyho!]

Seriously! You guys have nothing better to do than pick pick pick at a professional rider who occasionally puts his horses in a hyperflexed position for a time during warm up or training. All of the video's I have seen on him have blatantly been cut together to 'show' that he is in rolkur for much longer than he actually is. And on the vid I saw on the daily mail site there were 3 other riders using hyperflexion in their warm up - I notice the camera didnt pan to them.

If people want something to rant about, go out and see the obese ponies in fields of ragwort, emaciated ponies locked in stables full off their own feaces, show ponies tied in side reins to ensure they look 'on the bit' and have topline, jumpers with spiked boots and blisters...look at the Big Lick video's on Youtube!!

If a few moments of hyperflexion are all you have to worry about then you are lucky!

My mare puts herself into rolkur when she is excited and evading the bit!

Whoa! Did you just tell us off for disagreeing with rollkur?

 

[Ibblebibble]

Rosehip, people do rant quite frequently about the issues you have mentioned, but the olympic dressage is a current issue and therefore the rolkur issue is foremost in peoples minds right now. what annoys most is the fact that the FEI have 'banned' rolkur but still turn a blind eye to it, ragwort is not banned, obese ponies are not illegal and i've never seen anyone on HHO say that emaciated ponies in their own faeces is acceptable! but why should we also just turn a blind eye to rolkur just because the FEI do?!

 

[Princess Jess]

Not at all, I actually meant during CDJ's test which was obviously very highly scoring but it wasn't perfect. I would also have liked her not to say "good girl" every fifteen sodding seconds and to acknowledge that there were less than perfect moments (as she has for every other rider). Patriotism is very admirable, but they have a duty to some degree of impartiality.

I'm glad its not just me that found the 'good girl' irritating if not a little patronising
I like that the commentators are patriotic when the British riders come on but I think their patriotic comments should be limited to before and after the test...during the test it would be nice to see some impartiality and constructive criticism.

 

[DragonSlayer]

Seriously! You guys have nothing better to do than pick pick pick at a professional rider who occasionally puts his horses in a hyperflexed position for a time during warm up or training. All of the video's I have seen on him have blatantly been cut together to 'show' that he is in rolkur for much longer than he actually is. And on the vid I saw on the daily mail site there were 3 other riders using hyperflexion in their warm up - I notice the camera didnt pan to them.

If people want something to rant about, go out and see the obese ponies in fields of ragwort, emaciated ponies locked in stables full off their own feaces, show ponies tied in side reins to ensure they look 'on the bit' and have topline, jumpers with spiked boots and blisters...look at the Big Lick video's on Youtube!!

If a few moments of hyperflexion are all you have to worry about then you are lucky!

My mare puts herself into rolkur when she is excited and evading the bit!

If you wish to support those who use a banned technique, then that is up to you. HOWEVER, you do NOT have the right to rant at those who have a genuine concern over the fact that the use of this technique is not being policed.

If I chose to not watch the dressage because I believe the governing body are doing jack ***** to police it, then I will not watch it, and I will tell others the reason I am not watching it. It is not 'pick pick pick', it is a discussion on why the hell a huge organisation is NOT dealing with an issue that is clearly not allowed.

What you allow your horse to do is your choice, but it does not give you the right to be telling me what I should and should not be doing.

 

[WoopsiiD]

Rosehip-Its abuse. Clear and Simple!
I believe that thankfully we all have the freedom of speech.
I don't agree with fat ponies, I get angry when I see fields full of ponies fat or thin surrounded by yellow and I will happily report anyone who abuses an animal be it chicken, cat or horse.
Just because he is a pro rider does not make it right.
Just because your horse does it voluntarily in the field or while evading the bit does not mean that it should be a training aid.
I too was unaware that we were limited to having one 'cause'.

 

[Hedwards]

Not at all, I actually meant during CDJ's test which was obviously very highly scoring but it wasn't perfect. I would also have liked her not to say "good girl" every fifteen sodding seconds and to acknowledge that there were less than perfect moments (as she has for every other rider). Patriotism is very admirable, but they have a duty to some degree of impartiality.

(And no, I did not expect comments on rollkur on commentary. That would be grossly improper.)

I agree there, I did notice the "good girl" bits. Sounded more like she was giving her a lesson!

I'm glad its not just me that found the 'good girl' irritating if not a little patronising
I like that the commentators are patriotic when the British riders come on but I think their patriotic comments should be limited to before and after the test...during the test it would be nice to see some impartiality and constructive criticism.

I think to be fair, CDJ used to be one of her pupils, so it may well have been a subconcious 'good girl' - not saying its right for her to be biased, but also incredibly difficult not to be... (mind you Mike Tucker and Scotty were fairly biased in the eventing too...)

 

[Rosehip]

Im surprised that people are picking just on PK....as far as I have seen (and I work in dressage) everyone has at some time or another had a horse in a hyperflexed state.
I see nothing wrong in taking a horse who isnt listening to the seat or the bridle into a deep outline and saying hang on matey, listen.
IMHO I would rather see a horse go into rolkur for 2 mins than see someone kick hell out of one with spurs on, or belt it with a whip! The tap, tap, tap, nag, nag, nag of a schooling whip makes me want to do it to the rider!!

I dont like to hear/see equestrianism being portrayed as an elitist sport, or as a cruel sport, but I dont see how hyperflexion is seen as worse than horses with spur wheals, cut mouths, whip marks that are seen at some shows.

There are many many many worse things that could happen to a horse than a little hyperflexion in a workout.

Pootle, no, one is not limited to one concern apiece, nor am I commenting on every thread I find banal, as that is a waste of my time. Are you being deliberately pedantic or have you a bee in your bonnet?

I merely feel that there are a lot more things to fret over than a german rider hyperflexing for a few minutes in a warm up.


ETA: Im well aware that Rolkur is banned - however it is only banned when going over the length of time the FEI allow. Those who wish to use Rolkur in short bursts are allowed to do so, and as such I find nothing wrong with it.
I do disagree with constant hyperflexion. The video of PK warming up has been cut to make it seem that he is in constant rolkur, when he infact is not.

 

[JFTDWS]

I'm glad its not just me that found the 'good girl' irritating if not a little patronising
I like that the commentators are patriotic when the British riders come on but I think their patriotic comments should be limited to before and after the test...during the test it would be nice to see some impartiality and constructive criticism.

I agree there, I did notice the "good girl" bits. Sounded more like she was giving her a lesson!

Completely agree. I would have had so much more respect for her if she'd had the courage to "criticise" or at least point out where the test could have been improved. Patriotism shouldn't blind the commentary, though I do appreciate it outside of the tests!

I watched a few before PK and was amazed at some of the skills of the Spanish and Portugese too. They still made it look like a dance between horse and rider.

Glad it's not just me. To me, there was some perfection there

 

[Jesstickle]

Umm. He's Swedish?

And most people are quite specific that they want the FEI to ban and police properly every use of Rollkur. It just so happens Kittel is bearing the brunt for being a repeat offender!

 

[tallyho!]

Rosehip, I get what you mean. We are focusing on it because he was nearly banned for it last time and here he is, back in the limelight.

There is so much horse abuse discussed on this forum. It just so happens to be that this one is about rollkur, and about kittell.

 

[pookie]

Pootle, no, one is not limited to one concern apiece, nor am I commenting on every thread I find banal, as that is a waste of my time. Are you being deliberately pedantic or have you a bee in your bonnet?

An interesting reply, considering your first post on this thread.

I merely feel that there are a lot more things to fret over than a german rider hyperflexing for a few minutes in a warm up.

He's Swedish (<--- THAT'S pedantic )

 

[Munchkin]

It's becoming apparent to the naked eye, in watching the tests, which horses were trained in hyperflexion.

If it doesn't affect them, Rosehip... why does it alter their way of going so much?

And if it doesn't, why use the technique at all?

Rollkur is NOT used to correct a horse and make it listen, it is used to produce a flashy and false front end - a current fashion in dressage. I am surprised that you work in dressage yet do not know that.

Finally, this practice is banned. If riders are breaking the rules, they should be pulled up on it. Seems you cannot break the rules in other sports and get away with it like you can in dressage.

 

[Jesstickle]

He's Swedish (<--- THAT'S pedantic )

Beat you to it

 

[pookie]

Beat you to it

I noticed I was still trying to work out why I have a bee in my bonnet

 

[Jesstickle]

I noticed I was still trying to work out why I have a bee in my bonnet

P'raps it flew in and got stuck. They quite often come in down the chimney I think

We can be pedants together.

 

[zefragile]

Judy Harvey was probably more nervous than any of us watching Charlotte's test, I think she can be excused for a few "good girl"s

 

[Jesstickle]

a load more pictures have just appeared on the FEI's Facebook page. All telling the same story.

 

[Rosehip]

It's becoming apparent to the naked eye, in watching the tests, which horses were trained in hyperflexion.

If it doesn't affect them, Rosehip... why does it alter their way of going so much?

And if it doesn't, why use the technique at all?

Rollkur is NOT used to correct a horse and make it listen, it is used to produce a flashy and false front end - a current fashion in dressage. I am surprised that you work in dressage yet do not know that.

Finally, this practice is banned. If riders are breaking the rules, they should be pulled up on it. Seems you cannot break the rules in other sports and get away with it like you can in dressage.

I use rolkur to bring the horse I am riding back into my hands and listening to my leg. If I feel that they are dropping onto the forehand and evading my instruction/seat/hands, then they are dropped into a deep, round outline, sat on their hocks and then set back up to work lightly and in a correct outline.
Hyperflexion as a training tool to produce a Totilas front end is not accaptable (as Toto's front end is too much like a spanish walk anyway, and has too many 'broken angles') and riders should be punished/downpointed for that, hyperflexion used in training to bring the horse back, sit it and lift the outline is IMO fine.

I dont give a monkeys if PK is swedish, german, chinese or a dolphin, I find it uncomfortable that he is the sole recipient of all this bile, when hyperflexion is so widely used. Have you seen some of the show jumpers warm up??

If the FEI have banned all forms of rolkur/hyperflexion, then perhaps the vitriol should be directed more in their direction that they arent policing their own rules.

 

[martlin]

I don't think that making a horse's tongue go blue is acceptable for any purpose. I find it rather disgusting that the FEI won't act.

 

[pookie]

I don't think that making a horse's tongue go blue is acceptable for any purpose. I find it rather disgusting that the FEI won't act.

^^ THIS!

 

[WoopsiiD]

Rosehip-genuine question...Why do you feel the need to use an FEI banned method?