Patrick Kittell..
- Thread starter KellyJoArnold
- Start date
Munchkin
Well-Known Member
See, I think there is a huge difference in working deep and round, to forcefully crushing the underside neck muscle to shorten it. Which is what Rollkur is ridden to achieve.
Are you admitting to forceably using a curb rein to fold the horse's neck as far as it'll go, and holding it there, whether the horse is moving forward or not? Because if not, I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing.
http://krysiakdressage.webs.com/anky.jpg
If anyone honestly needs to pull back so hard on the curb rein that they need their lower leg for leverage, may I suggest that they shouldn't be sitting on a horse?
Are you admitting to forceably using a curb rein to fold the horse's neck as far as it'll go, and holding it there, whether the horse is moving forward or not? Because if not, I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing.
http://krysiakdressage.webs.com/anky.jpg
If anyone honestly needs to pull back so hard on the curb rein that they need their lower leg for leverage, may I suggest that they shouldn't be sitting on a horse?
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
Seriously.
Have you never heard the saying 'Two wrongs, don't make a right'?
There are a lot of things wrong in the horse world - they have to be put right one by one. The sport's governing body is best placed to put dressage right. Now would be a good opportunity.
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Jesstickle
Well-Known Member
so you do this to your horse rosehip?
WoopsiiD
Well-Known Member
Every time I see those pictures I just wonder how anyone can justify that? 
Surely you ride because you love and respect the horse as a species?
Seriously-can someone who agrees with this method tell me why? I'm open to opinions.
Surely you ride because you love and respect the horse as a species?
Seriously-can someone who agrees with this method tell me why? I'm open to opinions.
Vizslak
Well-Known Member
Rollkur is banned full stop, Low deep round and long deep round are allowed for short periods (ten minutes)
Munchkin
Well-Known Member
Rosehip, not constantly? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIXGiV4N4k
If you support this, despite the fact that it is banned (with good reason) then why on EARTH are you around horses?
If you support this, despite the fact that it is banned (with good reason) then why on EARTH are you around horses?
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Really ? I suppose that's one way. Does it work ? You know, the 'lightly' and 'correct outline' bit.
Used to be called heavy hands.
BeesKnees
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry but biomechanically that is absolute nonsense. If you haul the front end in all you do is put the horse on the forehand. See Phillips Karl' s videos and books for detailed explanations about why this happens.
If however you wish to bully your horse into ' shut down' submission, and possibly cause hypoxia ( which would arguably result in the same thing) then Rolkur is perfect.
Just spend some time with your chin rammed onto your chest and see how tense you feel across your shoulders and back. How people can argue that such a technique can create lightness, thoroughness across the back and 'sit' through the back end, is beyond me.
Vizslak
Well-Known Member
Also to note on that video, pleasingly, if you watch every other competitor in that warm up none have their horses in Rollkur, even momentarily
pookie
Well-Known Member
Ah, you're both blind...that's clever editing, that is
Suspiciously seamless, obviously
Vizslak
Well-Known Member
to me, you can see quite plainly a horse trained a lot in rollkur, the total opposite of making them sit on their hinds and work through it gives their hind ends a very weak appearance. I thought Scandic looked very weak behind in comparison to a lot of his counterparts out there today IMHO of course and I'm not saying 'weak' in that he was unable to complete the movements, he had some nice moments in his test actually, but just weak in that he is lacking of muscle and power through his hindquarters.
WoopsiiD
Well-Known Member
Charlotte Dujardin 83.663%
I don't believe this rider has ever been linked to Rollkur.
So why the need?
Hard work and soft hands deserves the Gold.
In dressage there should be no shortcuts at an animal's expense.
The silent partner has been abused for too long and its about time enough of us became his voice and stood up to 'riders/bullies' (choose your own word) and the FEI.
I don't believe this rider has ever been linked to Rollkur.
So why the need?
Hard work and soft hands deserves the Gold.
In dressage there should be no shortcuts at an animal's expense.
The silent partner has been abused for too long and its about time enough of us became his voice and stood up to 'riders/bullies' (choose your own word) and the FEI.
WoopsiiD
Well-Known Member
I was going to say something along these lines but then realised that really I'm not qualified enough and what I was seeing could be pulled to pieces by people who actually watch dressage.
To me Charlotte's ride was harmony. I saw an honest horse dance with his rider.
PolarSkye
Well-Known Member
This. And, oh by the way, I thought the same thing when I watched Carl Hester ride. Just look at Uthopia's angles . . . the front end matches the back end . . . no hoiking the front end in to create a false outline, no extravagant front legs/trailing back legs, no overt tension . . . just grace and harmony.
Everything Charlotte and Carl achieve can be done without Rollkur.
P
Booboos
Well-Known Member
Since scientific evidence seems to be at the crux of this debate would you mind linking to the published studies (in peer reviewed journals please) that show that rollkur causes hypoxia and 'shut down' submission (not sure what this last term is but would be interested in reading more about it)? I have an ongoing interest in this but have yet failed to find any evidence to back these claims.
(I don't find the cross species analogy very convincing as on the one hand my cat spends a long time curled up with her chin on her neck with no adverse effects, while on the other if I tried to walk on all fours for even a few hours I would be in serious pain)
Queenbee
Well-Known Member
I have to say that to some extent I get where you are coming from, even in 'At Home With Carl Hester' Carl talks about the use of rolkur 'sparingly as part of a horses training to increase and promote elasticity. Unfortunately there IS over use and abuse of the method within the other nations... So just seeing these nations use it if even for a short period is understandably going to make peoples blood boil.
Marydoll
Well-Known Member
Well said
kerilli
Well-Known Member
I'm ignoring all the rest, some of which is risible, most of which has already been very eloquently answered, but this bit
really does make me gape. You cannot possibly be trying to compare a position which a horse assumes fleetingly, with, presumably, no mechanical compulsion, with a forced position attained with a curb?
Oh yes, sorry, you are. Unreal.
Rollkur is about compulsion, force. If a ridden horse ducks into the position behind the contact, is it NOT rollkur. We have to be careful about getting hysterical about it, and assuming that ANY picture of a horse deep and round is in rollkur... but claiming that a horse evading the contact is in rollkur.... I am boggled.
really does make me gape. You cannot possibly be trying to compare a position which a horse assumes fleetingly, with, presumably, no mechanical compulsion, with a forced position attained with a curb?
Oh yes, sorry, you are. Unreal.
Rollkur is about compulsion, force. If a ridden horse ducks into the position behind the contact, is it NOT rollkur. We have to be careful about getting hysterical about it, and assuming that ANY picture of a horse deep and round is in rollkur... but claiming that a horse evading the contact is in rollkur.... I am boggled.
stencilface
High upon a hillside
This. It grates when people comment that showjumpers are ridden in rolkur, when in fact if they are, generally it is a momentary evasion/debate between horse and rider
Vizslak
Well-Known Member
I too am very keen for people to not to be hysterical and to be able to differentiate between what is and isnt rollkur, LDR is a neccessary training method (actually that MOST horses would benefit from if done correctly day in day out) it makes the horse soft and supple over the back, I would rather see overbent horses working LDR properly through from behind any day of the week than a horse with its head stuck in the air doing as it wishes, its how I have trained my horses for years and always will do, it builds a strong supple horse. There are videos and pictures floating about that I have seen with horses in this position or indeed in a correct competition outline (poll high) with captions of Rollkur underneath, please when spreading the facts make sure people know what is and ISNT Rollkur. I dont believe Carl Hester works his horses in Rollkur but rather that he works them in an outline deemed to be 'overbent' which is totally fine and not Rollkur, I am willing to be corrected on this though
Marydoll
Well-Known Member
Agreed
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
There is a tremendous amount of difference between remonte and rollkur.
Remonte (LDR) is there to help stretch the muscle. Rollkur is artificial.
All horses are capable of putting their nose on their chests to itch at flies. I see in the field but this is not to be used for extended periods when riding.
The awareness must continue. Classical will come back.
Remonte (LDR) is there to help stretch the muscle. Rollkur is artificial.
All horses are capable of putting their nose on their chests to itch at flies. I see in the field but this is not to be used for extended periods when riding.
The awareness must continue. Classical will come back.
_GG_
Well-Known Member
Wow, I only just signed up and my word what a start, lol.
Rollkur - hate it.
LDR - A very useful tool if done correctly.
To get on any horse and ask it to constantly work in a poll high outline is unfair as well though!
You cannot expect a horse not to get tense when held in the same position for long periods. A dressage test is always under 10 minutes long and 10 minutes is not too long to be in a poll high position, but I regularly see people train their horses for 40-60 minutes at home with their head in the same position the whole time. Whilst they may think it looks good or feels good, it is doing nothing to enhance the athletic ability of the horse as holding the same position for long periods causes tension as the muscles become fatigued.
Much better to warm up long and low, do some flexing, maybe a little correct LDR for short periods as it does help suppleness and lifting of the back muscles when done properly, then some poll high work for a while, then some more flexing and long and low again to cool down.
This is how I have been trained by a number of very good riders, one of them being Carl Hester many years ago when he was at Gleneagles in Scotland. I was 13 I think then and it has always stuck with me.
We have to remember when we get on our horses that they are not machines. We can't ride by simply making them do what we want. We should ride asking ourselves how best we can help the horse understand what it is we want them to do. That way, you will find a level of communication that develops a harmonious conversation between horse and rider...not a relationship of force and submission.
Rollkur will continue to be used as long as the judges award high scores to those that use it. So, instead of focussing on the negatives, focus on the fact that the judges at London 2012 are marking these tests brilliantly. They are marking up for correctness and marking down for horses going behind the vertical, showing tension, poor angles etc. THAT is what will make the Rollkur users change their training methods!
So, that's my first post on these forums over with. Hello everyone
Rollkur - hate it.
LDR - A very useful tool if done correctly.
To get on any horse and ask it to constantly work in a poll high outline is unfair as well though!
You cannot expect a horse not to get tense when held in the same position for long periods. A dressage test is always under 10 minutes long and 10 minutes is not too long to be in a poll high position, but I regularly see people train their horses for 40-60 minutes at home with their head in the same position the whole time. Whilst they may think it looks good or feels good, it is doing nothing to enhance the athletic ability of the horse as holding the same position for long periods causes tension as the muscles become fatigued.
Much better to warm up long and low, do some flexing, maybe a little correct LDR for short periods as it does help suppleness and lifting of the back muscles when done properly, then some poll high work for a while, then some more flexing and long and low again to cool down.
This is how I have been trained by a number of very good riders, one of them being Carl Hester many years ago when he was at Gleneagles in Scotland. I was 13 I think then and it has always stuck with me.
We have to remember when we get on our horses that they are not machines. We can't ride by simply making them do what we want. We should ride asking ourselves how best we can help the horse understand what it is we want them to do. That way, you will find a level of communication that develops a harmonious conversation between horse and rider...not a relationship of force and submission.
Rollkur will continue to be used as long as the judges award high scores to those that use it. So, instead of focussing on the negatives, focus on the fact that the judges at London 2012 are marking these tests brilliantly. They are marking up for correctness and marking down for horses going behind the vertical, showing tension, poor angles etc. THAT is what will make the Rollkur users change their training methods!
So, that's my first post on these forums over with. Hello everyone
kerilli
Well-Known Member
_GG_ hi and welcome.
thanks for a very valuable contribution, posts like yours should stop this turning into a hysterical witch-hunt against anyone whose horse is photographed in LDR position, i hope... i dread that result.
lucky you to be trained by Carl, at such a formative age!
thanks for a very valuable contribution, posts like yours should stop this turning into a hysterical witch-hunt against anyone whose horse is photographed in LDR position, i hope... i dread that result.
lucky you to be trained by Carl, at such a formative age!
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Welcome GG! Welcome to the forums and with a first post like that, long may you stay! Cheers!
Jesstickle
Well-Known Member
Hi GG *waves* you will stay won't you?
If it helps I think a lot of people understand LDR is useful. Several people have posted the FEI's official stewarding diagrams saying they can tell the difference between LDR, long and low and the dirty R word.
I did notice some weirdo on the FEI page saying a horse being jogged for the judge shouldn't have a flash on as it was cruel. I ignored it but it took all my might not to call them a wally. We're not all completely mad bunny huggers I swear!
If it helps I think a lot of people understand LDR is useful. Several people have posted the FEI's official stewarding diagrams saying they can tell the difference between LDR, long and low and the dirty R word.
I did notice some weirdo on the FEI page saying a horse being jogged for the judge shouldn't have a flash on as it was cruel. I ignored it but it took all my might not to call them a wally. We're not all completely mad bunny huggers I swear!
Vizslak
Well-Known Member
Hi GG welcome to the madhouse
elaineh
Well-Known Member
Agree 100%.
Rosehip
Well-Known Member
I cant remember all names to respond to everyone individually, my appologies.
Yes, my mare puts herself into rolkur, she uses it to evade all contact and run off, its part of the reason she is retired, as she uses it against me. Her head comes to the vertical, and her tounge goes under the bit, therefore evading contact and rendering rolkur an act against me...not her.
I work with one horse who regularly fiddles with his tounge and the bits and has a blueish tinge to his tounge occasionally - it is easy to get them caught between double bridle bits if they are a fiddler. Be it when on a contact or not.
You absolutely can use hyperflexion as a positive training tool, to be working in the LDR, and then hyperflex momentarily and the drop again into LDR is a very effective way of getting the horses hind legs under him and working over his back.
I have bred, broken and re-habed various horses and ponies, all are happy, healthy and well trained, dont you dare say that I dont look after or care for my horses.
The FEI has banned all forms of rolkur, so be it, thats fine, but it is up to them to enforce that ruling, not camera nazi's with clever editing to slur a particular rider. That video has been edited, no question in my mind.
Yes, my mare puts herself into rolkur, she uses it to evade all contact and run off, its part of the reason she is retired, as she uses it against me. Her head comes to the vertical, and her tounge goes under the bit, therefore evading contact and rendering rolkur an act against me...not her.
I work with one horse who regularly fiddles with his tounge and the bits and has a blueish tinge to his tounge occasionally - it is easy to get them caught between double bridle bits if they are a fiddler. Be it when on a contact or not.
You absolutely can use hyperflexion as a positive training tool, to be working in the LDR, and then hyperflex momentarily and the drop again into LDR is a very effective way of getting the horses hind legs under him and working over his back.
I have bred, broken and re-habed various horses and ponies, all are happy, healthy and well trained, dont you dare say that I dont look after or care for my horses.
The FEI has banned all forms of rolkur, so be it, thats fine, but it is up to them to enforce that ruling, not camera nazi's with clever editing to slur a particular rider. That video has been edited, no question in my mind.