Pedigree Dogs Exposed Three Years On

[Cinnamontoast]

The health test requirements on the continent, of other FCI-affiliated kennel clubs, put ours to shame.

As do the coefficients! In Sweden, the majority of registered dogs have no more than something like 6.2%, whereas the KC are still registering litters with 47%!

 

[MurphysMinder]

I don't know how often Assured Breeders are inspected, I have been on the scheme since June last year and I certainly haven't been, and lets face it my large stock of breeding animals wouldn't take long to check over. I actually asked someone on the ABS stand at Crufts a few years ago about mandatory test levels and she said that the reason they didn't do this was because it would drive breeders who didn't test away and then things could get worse. I'm afraid the cynic in me thinks that its actually more to do with losing revenue but I do believe the KC have realised that they have to seriously improve things .
Re judges, whilst the KC approve them once they are approve it is quite unusual for them to be "struck off". It is the show committees not the KC who choose judges for their particular show and sometimes all they are interested in is a judge who will get them a large entry.

 

[g16]

cc i agree that probably is a big concern of theirs! i dont think independent breed clubs for the high profile breeds such as the bull dog and pug would help as from what I can see they obviously don't see the issues caused by the shape of the skull! I think with a breed like yours where they can and do still carry out a function it is easier to get people on board. people can see them working etc but what purpose do pugs and bulldogs now have? they have become fashion dogs which is terrible. personally i don't see the attraction as i just find them ugly but thats just me!

 

[whisp&willow]

just playing devils advocate for a minute- i dont think we can blame the KC for everything here-

there are some breeds which are not recognised by the KC, (like the american bulldog) and there are problems in this breed also. less pronounced than the BB, CKC and pug, but problems none the less.

i think the documentary was interesting, especialy the boxer geneticist. what a shame the top breeders who have dogs implicated have refused to listen to common sense and science for the good of their breed.

there have been improvements, but there is still a long way to go. i think Vislak hit the nail on the head with regards judging... i cant help but think that when it comes to showing, dog's welfare and being fit for function will always be secondary to the cosmetic side. it might turn around eventually, but i think the extremities will slowly creep back in again

i found a couple of bits very dificult to watch, especially the bit about the dalmatians. my best friend lost her dal male to this a couple of years ago. tragic, and could have been avoidable.

ets: might be looking towards sweeden if and when i am looking for a pup...

 

[Dobiegirl]

I think a lot of judges need replacing which reminds me of something which was on the Lancashire Heeler forum. A LH exhibitor had won her bob and was in the ring for the championship. The judge told her to bring her terrier up to the table so he could examine it and the owner said its a Lancashire Heeler. The judge said I dont know anything about this breed, needless to say it wasnt placed.

 

[Vizslak]

there have been improvements, but there is still a long way to go. i think Vislak hit the nail on the head with regards judging... i cant help but think that when it comes to showing, dog's welfare and being fit for function will always be secondary to the cosmetic side. it might turn around eventually, but i think the extremities will slowly creep back in again

(

In some breeds, not all, some breed clubs do everything in their power to stop this from happening as do the breeders.

 

[Vizslak]

anyone watched the kc video I posted? Its interesting watching, I promise!

 

[Willeeckers]

That's good to know vizslak

As a member of the general public, ie not a breeder just a dog lover, it seems to me that perhaps two completely different bodies are needed one to represent the breeders/organise shows etc, (the KC) and one to regulate/represent the welfare of the dogs.

 

[whisp&willow]

In some breeds, not all, some breed clubs do everything in their power to stop this from happening as do the breeders.

yes i agree. there are some breeds out there which have changed little over time. as far as im aware, many of the working/gun dogs are still fit for function on the whole?

obviously there are people out there who are doing soemthing right, and are sticking their neck out for their breed. its just a shame they are swimming against the tide.

 

[Vizslak]

In an ideal world one body (ie. the KC) should do both IMO, its a shame they do seem to fall short in many respects of this.

 

[Onyxia]

I think that lost revenue might be another concern?
The KC needs to stop worrying about 'driving people away' - would you WANT to be endorsing people who can't or won't health test their dogs?

Baaaaa
However, the puppy buying public would also need to do their part- if those looking to purchase say a Bulldog go to a breeder who health tests and is trying to produce a more natural,healthy skull then those breeding Bulldogs who sport the chasing parked cars look would find themselves in a rather large pile of doggy doo quite quickly.
As long as the public buy dogs in spite of the problems, the problems will persist.

People in my own breed have been going above and beyond KC requirements for DECADES without any recognition. There are PLENTY of breed clubs which act outside the KC, doing health testing off their own bat.
The health test requirements on the continent, of other FCI-affiliated kennel clubs, put ours to shame.

*like*
I have no idea how we could get that point out there to the wider public, but completely agree that the KC should be doing MUCH more to shine a light of excellent breeding practise while publicly condemning bad practise.

 

[Onyxia]

anyone watched the kc video I posted? Its interesting watching, I promise!

Got halfway and OH started moaning he cant hear the TV but have shared it on Facebook so hopefully it will get out to a few more

What I saw was very good!

 

[MurphysMinder]

I think a lot of judges need replacing which reminds me of something which was on the Lancashire Heeler forum. A LH exhibitor had won her bob and was in the ring for the championship. The judge told her to bring her terrier up to the table so he could examine it and the owner said its a Lancashire Heeler. The judge said I dont know anything about this breed, needless to say it wasnt placed.

You can put up with that from the general public, but not good from a judge.
A few years ago I had a phone calling asking me to judge GSDS at a canine society open show, I said I was happy to do that, and then the secretary asked me if I would also do Belgian shepherds and border collies. I said no and explained I knew nothing about the breeds and the reply I got was oh you'll be fine, just swot up a bit on the breed standards, needless to say I declined the invitation. Out of interest I did look out for the schedule and they did have one judge for them all, it was someone I had never heard of and I did at the time wonder if they had any experience of judging GSDs.

 

[whisp&willow]

i think a lot of the responsibility falls with the consumer aswell... if people refuse to buy then breeding to extremes should reduce!

so many people just go out with the intention to buy a dog because they like how it looks, and while i can understand this to a certain extent, you need to think about what the dog was originally bred to do.

 

[Vizslak]

yes i agree. there are some breeds out there which have changed little over time. as far as im aware, many of the working/gun dogs are still fit for function on the whole?

obviously there are people out there who are doing soemthing right, and are sticking their neck out for their breed. its just a shame they are swimming against the tide.

difficult one, most gundog breeds are very divided in show/work type which is a real shame. To me a breed should be able to do both without dividing into two types. I have two breeds, gundog and terrier, with no divide in type that do both and to me and many others like me this is paramount and really key to the KC's 'fit for function' campaign, sadly in the majority of breeds most in the ring probably arent fit for the purpose originally bred for, not neccessarily for health reasons though. Again the KC fall flat at installing measures to combat this. Its a dream of mine to get a worker in a divided breed into the ring at crufts, sadly it will probably never happen because the difference in types of these dogs is so great you would end up bottom of every class you entered, they simply wouldnt conform to type.

 

[Dobiegirl]

MM well done for doing the right thing but I wonder how many judges out there do so by blagging it.

I do think the whole judge thing is suspect anyway as if you are a breeder or exhibitor you are bound to know the people showing. Perhaps a judge shouldnt judge their own breed but have to swot up on other breeds and then their decision isnt clouded by any bias but instead is truly impartial.

 

[MurphysMinder]

i think a lot of the responsibility falls with the consumer aswell... if people refuse to buy then breeding to extremes should reduce!

so many people just go out with the intention to buy a dog because they like how it looks, and while i can understand this to a certain extent, you need to think about what the dog was originally bred to do.

In GSDs the puppy buying public do seem to be aware of hip scoring etc, or at least the ones who have contacted me do, which is gratifying. Education is certainly the way forward which is why the original PDE programme was so disappointing, it just scared people away from breeders who show by tarring them all with the same brush.

 

[Vizslak]

MM well done for doing the right thing but I wonder how many judges out there do so by blagging it.

I do think the whole judge thing is suspect anyway as if you are a breeder or exhibitor you are bound to know the people showing. Perhaps a judge shouldnt judge their own breed but have to swot up on other breeds and then their decision isnt clouded by any bias but instead is truly impartial.

MOST judging is far from impartial, unless you have a non breed specialist, in which case you get problems as you highlighted above!

 

[Dobiegirl]

Vizzy to me if the dog is not fit for its original function it shouldnt be shown, I think when they are breeding for looks and lose the original intention of the breed then the breed suffer healthwise. Good job I dont judge i would pick all the wrong dogs.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Yes very interesting video Vizslak, wish some of Prof Crispins comments on health tests on designer crosses had been shown on the programme.

 

[CorvusCorax]

This might take the thread on a whole different tangent. But your average low-energy pet owner wants a dog who needs moderate exercise, not that much mental stimulation, nice and calm, won't try to eat the pet hamster and will happily lie on the sofa, not dismantle it when it is bored.

If you take a breed like mine, the things that make it a good working dog, very often are the things that preclude it from fitting in to the low-energy pet home if that makes sense.
There is a trade off. You want a dog that can do a certain job or is from 'old school' lines, you (not always, but often IMO) can expect it to be a little more higher maintenance.

My own breed has had a lot of the working instinct bred out of it to suit the modern pet owner.
That's before you go into all the exaggeration of the backline and rear angulation (there, I said it )
People want what they want and there will always be those out there to provide it for them and it is not always in the best interests of the breed.

 

[Onyxia]

Vizzy to me if the dog is not fit for its original function it shouldnt be shown, I think when they are breeding for looks and lose the original intention of the breed then the breed suffer healthwise. Good job I dont judge i would pick all the wrong dogs.

I think it is fine to allow breeds to evolve over time, no one really wants a Bulldog to do what it was bred for any more (not anyone who should own a dog anyway) but we do need to include some sort of physical testing.
Perhaps breeds who no longer have a sporting or working purpose should prove themselves in the agility ring to take top honers in the show ring?

 

[MurphysMinder]

I noticed on that video that several times they refer to the 14 high profile breeds that are to be checked by vets before going into groups. Previously 15 breeds have always been referred to, does anyone know what breed is no longer on the list, and why?

 

[g16]

MM the 15th breed is the chinese crested. this is not on the list due to a deformity. i never realised but the hairless gene is a lethal gene. to get pups you cross a haired with a hairless and the result is a mixture of both. there are different degrees of hairless. some showers will clip the haired parts or use chemicals to burn the hair. theyre on the list to make sure they are examined for a rash or burn from this being done as its not allowed.
this is why it is sometimes referred to as not being on the list
hope this makes sense!

 

[Vizslak]

thanks g16, thats interesting and not something I was aware of

 

[MurphysMinder]

Thank you g16.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Has anybody followed the furore over Rough Collie winner at Westminster in the USA this year?

 

[Dobiegirl]

This might take the thread on a whole different tangent. But your average low-energy pet owner wants a dog who needs moderate exercise, not that much mental stimulation, nice and calm, won't try to eat the pet hamster and will happily lie on the sofa, not dismantle it when it is bored.

If you take a breed like mine, the things that make it a good working dog, very often are the things that preclude it from fitting in to the low-energy pet home if that makes sense.
There is a trade off. You want a dog that can do a certain job or is from 'old school' lines, you (not always, but often IMO) can expect it to be a little more higher maintenance.

My own breed has had a lot of the working instinct bred out of it to suit the modern pet owner.
That's before you go into all the exaggeration of the backline and rear angulation (there, I said it )
People want what they want and there will always be those out there to provide it for them and it is not always in the best interests of the breed.

I think I know what you are saying and thats perhaps where some of the problems lie, dogs are being made to fit a lifestyle they were never bred for.

You yourself have had to go to a working line to get the dog you want and Ive noticed with my 2 dobes they are nothing like my previous ones. In my opinion they have dumbed them down so even with irresponsible ownership they are less likely to bite someone.

Border Collies are another dog which has been done a disservice in that they are highly intelligent they need a job to do, if its not working sheep its energy should be channeled into agility or flyball. Its not a dog that will fit into a flat and be taken on the occasional walk.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Re the vets doing the health checks, the BVA is asking for vets to volunteer to do this, I wonder how many takers there will be, could be a bit of a risk for any vets with breeders/exhibitors amongst their clients.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Has anybody followed the furore over Rough Collie winner at Westminster in the USA this year?

Briefly looked at it, and they think we have problems.