Pessoas... could be controversial!!

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sfward

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I recently read this comment on the Pessoa on the Sustainable Dressage site (http://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/gadgets.php#pessoa)
Now, this lady does seem to be against most gadgets (and many types of bits too), but I would be very interested to hear people's reactions to her comments on the Pessoa, in particular the claim that "the most glaring effect of this contraption is that it succeeds in jabbing the horse in the mouth with each push of the hindlegs."

Full text below - opinions please! I am fairly neutral on this subject, just interested to hear reactions...


"The Pessoa System

During the Pessoas' total reign in showjumping in the 80's and 90's many "inventions" came from their barn. One was the Pessoa Gag Bit, which I speak of elsewhere, which is a combination of a driving bit and an elevator gag, and then the Pessoa Training System used for lungeing. This system is supposed to get the horse to stretch down AND engage the hindlegs forward, and thus be good for the back. I have seen it at work several times, and whilst it does get the horse to lower his head on the lunge, the most glaring effect of this contraption is that it succeeds in jabbing the horse in the mouth with each push of the hindlegs.

It has a semi-intricate pulley system that via a lunge-girth connects the gaskins with the mouth. I guess the rope is supposed to encourage the horse to grasp forward with the hindlegs as it tightens around the hindleg and at the same time limit the height of the head. But which is more sensitive - the skin on the hocks or the mouth!? The horse will be encouraged to roll down but not stretch to the bit, because the bit jabs at the mouth with each step. Now this is mechanical if anything!

I have also never seen any horse truly engage in this "system", only go on the forehand and curl behind the bit. It can be adjusted lower (for more stretch) and higher (for collection) but it seems to have very little such effect."
 
I personally use a pessoa as do various people down my yard and I do notice the difference if I school the day after using one.

One of my friends says pretty much the same as this women about them - she says that it appears to be [ QUOTE ]
jabbing the horse in the mouth with each push of the hindlegs

[/ QUOTE ].

I guess any 'gadget' can be harmful if fitted incorrectly or used incorrectly.
 
I read this the other day, yes it does make sense and to be honest im not too sure how I feel about them now. Ive only used mine twice anyway.

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however when you look at it on, it isnt really 'jabbing' the horse is it, because it runs through the pulleys attached to the bit and then to the girth, put I suppose it is telling the horse to pull its head in, which would of course make it go on the forehand.

I really dont know how i feel about it anymore!
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Disagree I must say. If it is fitted high enough it shouldn't be on the legs exactly, it is above that, around the quarters rather than the legs if you see what I mean? It certaibly doesn't jab my horse in the mouth - it can't, its on pulleys. And my lad would certainly let me know if he felt a jab on every stride!
My sj and dressage instructors both use and recommend them, as do many vets I believe?
J certainly engages his hocks, but to be fair he does anyway, I use it as a tool to encourage him to stretch down rather than colect up....
 
Still happy with mine, it isn't set at all tight, most certainly does not jab the horse in the mouth, is on the 'long and low'setting and they only walk and trot with it on - and you can see a real improvement in the back muscles and engagement.

I can understand how it might be open to abuse, but then so is virtually everything else we put on our horses
 
Like the_winter we use ours on the "long and low" setting. And only ever with a headcollar or Dually so there is never the possibility of it jabbing our horses in the mouth.

They are great pieces of equipment if used correctly and in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions regarding fitting etc.
 
SeaSlug... you could do with your breeching stap higher, so it's level with his stifle
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You won't get so much movement then.
The breeching strap when in the right place should encourage the horse to use its engine properly, stepping under with the hind legs, which naturally encouages the horse to work in a rounder outline. The pessoa should only be encouraging this, not forcing it. There should be no jabbing in the mouth as long as it is not fitted too tightly, and if the pulley-things on the piece that clips to the bit work properly, as IMO too many copies don't allow the ropes to move fluently enough.
 
See, my problem with the chambon, and my horse specifically, is that having been schooled intensively (and most likely incorrectly) in draw reins (by previous owner's instructor) my lad can very easily put his head in 'an outline' but he then breaks over the back and his hindquarters are not engaged at all.
With a chambon, he does the same unless you really get after him with my voice/lunge whip and make him engage the hindquarters and round over his back. Which I can do, but it then leads him to do a 'bigger' trot than I want - he was also previously a distance horse so tends to have a longer, flatter trot that we want for dressage.
However in the pessoa, I can slow the pace of the trot, without losing the engagement, an exercise we do a lot under saddle to work on collection/transitions.
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Just a little
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I did that too at first when I introduced it to Boo, and had it quite loose for Rage's first time too as I thought he might be the type to freak because he felt all constrained but I think I could have done with it tighter so it was more clear to him what it was he was meant to be doing - the poor boy was utterly confused!
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I think pessoa's are great if used for short periods and only on horses that are physically fit and established enough to be able to take them.

Both my vet and physio agree that overuse of them can put tremendous strain on muscles and ligaments and can actually cause injury.

I have one but rarely use it. I prefer to use a chambon. I would never use the pessoa on a young and immature horse.
 
if you don't like a pessoa then go back and learn how to lunge with two lunge lines an 'art' that seems to have been lost

all the pessoa is doing in it's basic format is allowing people who don't know how to lunge with two reins to 'cheat' and get a similar effect as lunging with two reins and side reins

my back lady rates the pessoa and she is an equimassage person - providing people do NOT tie up the lines so tight to force an outline - which is why ALL gadgets should only be used by experienced people - if you don't know how to use something correctly then stick to something you do know how to use correctly
 
I find it makes a real difference with George, I only use it once a week, but the day after I find he goes really nicely. After my first experiment with it I got my instructor to help me fit it and give me a lesson.
 
Sorry I'm the opposite - really don't like them to the point I sold mine very quickly and agree with the sustainable dressage lady

IMHO even when loose the whole movement of the thing tightenes (not necessarily pulls asd such) on the mouth ad the hind leg on the same side is at it's furthest back.

My physio also advises against them as she has seen alot of ham string / pelvic problems since people started using them (admittedly they may not be positioned / fitted correctly)

Just MHO - not wanting to spark an argument
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[ QUOTE ]
See, my problem with the chambon, and my horse specifically, is that having been schooled intensively (and most likely incorrectly) in draw reins (by previous owner's instructor) my lad can very easily put his head in 'an outline' but he then breaks over the back and his hindquarters are not engaged at all.
With a chambon, he does the same unless you really get after him with my voice/lunge whip and make him engage the hindquarters and round over his back. Which I can do, but it then leads him to do a 'bigger' trot than I want - he was also previously a distance horse so tends to have a longer, flatter trot that we want for dressage.
However in the pessoa, I can slow the pace of the trot, without losing the engagement, an exercise we do a lot under saddle to work on collection/transitions.
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[/ QUOTE ]

My mare can be similar to this - but she works well in a pessoa and I can slow the trot down easily to make her engage further - so I am a fan!
 
nope - not aimed at anyone in particular. Just a bit fed up with posts on 'how to use this gadget or that gadget' in general and my answer reflected my views that lunging with 2 lines is almost a lost art these days.....except for a few of us with grey hairs or the pro/racing yards
 
This is why I have sold my Pessoa (she says heaving herself off the fence...!) I don't feel confident fitting it properly, and would prefer to lunge with two reins, as I learned from watching my dad. Much more feel of what is going on, more interesting and just as effective IMO.
 
Well I think mine is fab, and have nothing against gadgets. Used properly, many are excellent.

Most horses on my yard will be in the pessoa once a week, they all go fabulously in it, and are muscled correctly. We currently have one in on a rehab program for a pelvic injury and part of his rehab (recommended by vet and physio) is to be on a pessoa for 10 mins, four days a week.
 
Hate them.

The problem is that people think their horse is working correctly as they are low in the outline. Yes- low, nose behind the vertical and on the forehand.
 
Well before my mare's KS op she couldn't hold an outline to save her life and was always on the fore (understandably). Part of her rehab programme is that she is worked in a pessoa - I'm not sure if I'm a fan or not, but since using it she works beautifully in the correct way with all the power coming from behind, even when she's not in it. So in a way it has taught her how to hold herself and helped her to develop the muscles correctly to do this. Oh and she's lunged on two lines when she's in it as she won't lunge on one line.
 
My dressage trainer says the exact same thing and had taught me a way of lunging using draw reins, this IMO works much better.
I think the only way to get a horse working through from behind is to teach it to. No amountof pully system is really going to help.
 
Could someone post a brief guide on lunging in 2 reins please? I was going to buy Jennie L-C's book on lunging. Is it any good?!
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I would get Sylvia Stanier's tbh and then 101 Exercises on the Lunge and Long Reins.

I wont use Pessoas-teach yourselves to long rein it aint rocket science!I have used draw reins and occasionally side reins-never use them on a bit though.
 
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