Pet cats - proposal to ban in places.

[Exasperated]

Exactly, so Exasperated says my hens should not be allowed out so next doors cat can free range. Why does anyone think that’s right?

No, I said protect them. If any of my hens get left out overnight and disappear, even during the day when there were more foxes about, fully accept the responsibility as mine, altho not happy about it. The suggestion of outdoor runs for cats is not dissimilar to hen runs, and likely more acceptable to reared fowl than feral cats.
With avian flu, will have to be contained anyway.
What did you do to preserve banties from foxes and hawks, out of interest?

 

[Exasperated]

Can you imagine the rage if I said sheep farmers should start keeping their sheep safe instead of blaming out of control dogs for killing them?

Can you imagine the rage if I said people shouldn’t get upset if dogs foul on their lawn because dogs don’t understand garden boundaries, they just see a convenient place to sh*t?

Dogs are a completely different animal, different mentality, different cultural history of working WITH humans in multiple different capacities.
Dogs are ‘trainable’ in totally different ways to felines - and if you have one that doesn’t meet basic minimum standards of trained behaviour, eg it savages a child, or a sheep, you’re liable.
There are stray dogs and cats in GB, but visit places where feral packs of dogs roam, and that difference and challenge will be all too obvious.

 

[Exasperated]

I was told on this forum I should fence off my whole property to stop dogs attacking my hens. That would be a what? 6ft fence plus underground to stop dogs from getting in?
When I said I couldn’t afford to spend thousands of pounds on fencing I never imagined I should need to put up because folk won’t put their dogs on leads I was then accused of not looking after my horses. My fields had just been refenced (thats money you expect to spend when you have horses) and I’d rather keep money aside for emergencies for them than fencing I shouldn’t have to put up but hey, that’s the forum.

For what it’s worth @Clodagh I am very sorry you lost your hens. I would be devastated if my cats did that and would hope to make an arrangement to avoid it happening again. It must be hard enough with the wildlife you get down there (which we don’t have here)
Don’t worry about my neighbours though. They have/had 5 cats and 2 dogs and my cats are terrified of strangers so don’t venture over there so I don’t think we should be causing them too much unhappiness.

Dogs DO have to be ‘under control’, which generally means on a lead unless trained to instant command.
Have had two hens ripped apart by a dog supposedly in the care of a commercial dog walker, the owners / their delegates are liable, as for worrying stock.

 

[Keith_Beef]

There are some really bizarre opinions expressed in this thread...

 

[palo1]

I think there's way too much nuance for the indoor/outdoor cat argument to actually be black and white. I live in the back end of nowhere, my cat doesn't leave my garden but could easily roam for miles if he wanted to. The average cat roams 40 - 200 metres from home, which would look very different in the countryside vs a city suburb.

Would I let my cat have free rein outdoors if he was bringing in birds every day? No
Would I let my cat have free rein if he was in danger of being on a fast road? No
Would I let my cat have free rein if he was knowingly causing a significant nuisance to the neighbours? No

As it so happens, I'm surrounded by fields with no near neighbours, with almost no traffic passing by, and my cat is so rubbish at hunting that earlier today I watched him sit in the middle of the yard as the rat I've been trying to humanely trap for weeks scurried in front of him and he didn't bat an eyelid. He is a useless predator! But I think he gets loads of enrichment from a few hours outside every day, and my last outdoor cat lived to age 20. I think it's unfair to say people who let their cats outdoors are uncaring. Culturally it is the norm in most of Europe, whether it should be or not - people are entitled to their opinion.

As an aside, where I live, I would not keep any small prey animals outside without a fox-proof enclosure. We have plenty of foxes and birds of prey around here which would certainly target any small furries left unprotected. I agree that it is completely unacceptable for any domestic pet to be entering someone's garden to attack their pets, but I would be more worried about wild predators, at least in my area.

I think that the issue of 'cultural' norms etc is one that you have previously roundly dismissed as a justification for ways of managing animals so it seems difficult to use that as a justification for this here.

 

[AutumnDays]

Your pet should be confined to your property. It shouldn't be allowed to roam over other people's, like any other pet/stock animal wouldn't/shouldn't. If that means you have to fence off your property in such a way to contain your cat, so be it. Terrier now has free range of the walled veg patch too. Last property we had where a cat came in, I managed to separate her off it for it to escape as it was a very small, urban garden. I won't be keeping an eye on her when she's out in an acre. My property is fenced off to contain my pet on my property. That's all I need to worry about

 

[Clodagh]

What did you do to preserve banties from foxes and hawks, out of interest?

Electric fence for foxes. Hawks not a problem unless I have chicks, who are undercover.
I refuse to confine my chickens to a run when they should be able to be in my garden. I don’t have a problem with cats being out… in their owners garden or on their property.

 

[cauda equina]

Someone upthread mentioned turnout for horses
Presumably we all turn our horses out on grazing we're entitled to use, either because we own it or pay rent for it
I'm surprised at the number of people who think their cats should have the right to fly hunt or fly crap - basically go/do where ever/whatever they want

 

[Chippers1]

My cat couldn't catch a cold...

As I wanted an indoor cat as I think there are too many risks for cats in the outside world, I specifically got a breed that are known for not being big wanderers. Of course there are exceptions but mine only goes into the front and back gardens supervised and to be honest he wouldn't go further anyway. He has never caught anything and his few 'attempts' are funny as he just runs up to pigeons meowing which is not very stealthy at all...

We do however have a neighbours cat who likes to use our front garden as a litter tray and it is annoying so I do see both arguments. For my cat's safety though he stays nearby. There are too many people who dislike cats enough to deliberately hurt them and I would never forgive myself if he got hurt. He is an absolute delight to own and is my best little friend, so I also don't believe the arguments about cats not having a relationship with their owners

 

[Janique]

Every days, hundreds of cats get run over, people lose them, they get injuried and still some people don't microchip them,
it's not compulsory here...

One female recently was found after 2 years roaming free, the owner instead of keeping her inside for a while, let her out again
and then start crying again when she leaves.

I am fed up with those people, if you have a cat, you look after him and don't leave them roam free everywhere, if you loose them then
don't cry and complain for weeks.

The owners are the problems, it's just too easy to have a cat, not expensive enough and people are just ignorant.....

 

[Miss_Millie]

I think that the issue of 'cultural' norms etc is one that you have previously roundly dismissed as a justification for ways of managing animals so it seems difficult to use that as a justification for this here.

I explicitly said that it doesn't necessarily make it right, and people are entitled to their opinions on whether it is right or wrong, but it is a fact that having outdoor cats is viewed as culturally normal in the UK.

Trust you to make it about fox hunting though.

 

[equinerebel]

We had a thread running the other week about winter turnout for horses. With so many saying that horses should be out 24/7, being confined to a stable is wrong. Yet here we are saying cats should be kept indoors.

Your cats have a job to do outside. My cats are very happy inside. They are not horses and obviously have very different needs. The size of most houses compared to the size of the average cat vs the size of most stables compared to the size of the average horse is also incomparable.

You wouldn't turn your horses out loose into the countryside, I imagine? They are still confined to within the boundaries of your land? That is no different to my cats having free roam of my property and supervised outdoor access.

My cats are indoors for their own safety. Without being able to have an actual conversation with them, they're both happy and healthy with silky coats and plenty of exercise and enrichment. They are also safe and not causing any havoc to anyone else.

All cats and their circumstances are different. I do not live in the countryside and my cats are safer for the approach I have taken for them. And on veterinary advise for one of them.

I'm not saying the indoor life is suitable for all cats, but it certainly is for many and we should encourage that where it suits.

 

[Asha]

Your cats have a job to do outside. My cats are very happy inside. They are not horses and obviously have very different needs. The size of most houses compared to the size of the average cat vs the size of most stables compared to the size of the average horse is also incomparable.

You wouldn't turn your horses out loose into the countryside, I imagine? They are still confined to within the boundaries of your land? That is no different to my cats having free roam of my property and supervised outdoor access.

My cats are indoors for their own safety. Without being able to have an actual conversation with them, they're both happy and healthy with silky coats and plenty of exercise and enrichment. They are also safe and not causing any havoc to anyone else.

All cats and their circumstances are different. I do not live in the countryside and my cats are safer for the approach I have taken for them. And on veterinary advise for one of them.

I'm not saying the indoor life is suitable for all cats, but it certainly is for many and we should encourage that where it suits.

i think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I cant imagine any cat being truly contented living indoors all its life. It may tolerate it, but does that equate to meeting all its needs. I personally dont think so.

What do cats like to do, they roam and they hunt. How do you offer enrichment for that ?

 

[equinerebel]

i think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I cant imagine any cat being truly contented living indoors all its life. It may tolerate it, but does that equate to meeting all its needs. I personally dont think so.

What do cats like to do, they roam and they hunt. How do you offer enrichment for that ?

My cats have never roamed the countryside or hunted for live prey, so they don't look for it. You'll just have to believe me that my cats don't stare longingly out the window craving the outside world. I have cameras, which I check regularly, so I'm mostly aware of their day to day shenanigans. Or don't believe me, it's fine either way.

In an ideal world, the healthier one would be free to come and go and traverse meadows and woods. I don't live in that world, and neither does she. Our environment is an urban landscape of busy roads and small neighbourhoods made up of many roaming cats, half of them not neutered, fighting over territories. I do not believe either of them would be happier in that environment.

The enrichment I offer is varied, as reflects the cat toy market. Obviously nothing can replicate a wild chase, catch and kill, I'm not suggesting I can. But they're also domestic cats who have never experienced that and absolutely do not seem stressed for it.

 

[Exasperated]

Electric fence for foxes. Hawks not a problem unless I have chicks, who are undercover.
I refuse to confine my chickens to a run when they should be able to be in my garden. I don’t have a problem with cats being out… in their owners garden or on their property.

Proper poultry fence, electric mesh? How is this cat getting in?
My experience always that foxes, weasels, polecats etc are a LOT more determined than cats - altho I’ve never personally come across a hen-hunting cat.
If you’ve got a decent dog, won’t that safeguard your garden? Our collies get along fine with our cats, but have plenty to say about any aliens.

 

[Clodagh]

Proper poultry fence, electric mesh? How is this cat getting in?
My experience always that foxes, weasels, polecats etc are a LOT more determined than cats - altho I’ve never personally come across a hen-hunting cat.
If you’ve got a decent dog, won’t that safeguard your garden? Our collies get along fine with our cats, but have plenty to say about any aliens.

Not your problem, tbh. I’m just glad I don’t live next door to you!

 

[Exasperated]

Not your problem, tbh. I’m just glad I don’t live next door to you!

Fair enough, that’s likely to be mutual

 

[paddy555]

If I said I was going to have a dog and it was going to live in a dogio there would be outrage. My dog should be taken for walks and exercised not just live in my dogio.
If a cat is confined to a catio where does it get exercised? They are not the best candidates for lead walking and it wouldn't be safe as the first do that say it would attack.
the natural behaviour of cats is to walk/roam long distances.

So how do these confined gets get exercised?

 

[equinerebel]

Have you ever seen a cat play? Mine chase each other around the house and include their toys, my furniture, and cat trees within their games. Cats are not dogs, and they are not horses. My cats weigh less than 4KG each and have an entire house. They are no more confined than my horse is within her field.

It's okay to disagree on this matter, we simply view the needs of my cats differently. I am okay with that because I know I am doing the best I can for them and they are loved, fed, happy and safe

 

[stangs]

If I said I was going to have a dog and it was going to live in a dogio there would be outrage.

I've mentioned this before on here, but canids as a general rule need more movement than felids do, and are also naturally active for more hours than felids are. This is one of the reasons why most zoos will have felid species, but canids in captivity are much more uncommon, because canids can't cope with restricted space as well as felids can. Plus many modern dog breeds have been bred to have higher activity levels, and therefore higher exercise/training needs, whereas that's not true for most cats.

This is not to say that cats don't need exercise or enrichment but that its easier to meet an indoor cat's needs (e.g., through play and indoor enrichment) than it would be to meet a 'indoor dog's' needs.

 

[paddy555]

Have you ever seen a cat play? Mine chase each other around the house and include their toys, my furniture, and cat trees within their games. Cats are not dogs, and they are not horses. My cats weigh less than 4KG each and have an entire house. They are no more confined than my horse is within her field.

It's okay to disagree on this matter, we simply view the needs of my cats differently. I am okay with that because I know I am doing the best I can for them and they are loved, fed, happy and safe

yes, I have probably had or cared for around 30 cats and of those only 1 was happy to be a house cat. The rest wanted to go out and indulge in cat behaviour. None of them wanted to play with toys.
Just about all were cats from shelters. They were restricted for the first couple of weeks. Not one of the thought that was great and a lifetime choice. They were very happy when let loose to roam as they wished with access to the house and everywhere else.

This is not to say that cats don't need exercise or enrichment but that its easier to meet an indoor cat's needs (e.g., through play and indoor enrichment) than it would be to meet a 'indoor dog's' needs.

that is OK as the humans POV as to what they would like their cat to want and how justify keeping them restricted. The actual cat's POV is, in my experience, somewhat different. They wander for long distances.

 

[paddy555]

Electric fence for foxes. Hawks not a problem unless I have chicks, who are undercover.
I refuse to confine my chickens to a run when they should be able to be in my garden. I don’t have a problem with cats being out… in their owners garden or on their property.

I've always seen it the other way with any of my animals ie it is my job to protect them from whatever might attack them. When I used to keep poultry I always fenced them in. I would have loved to have let them loose in the garden but a run or ark was a lot safer for them whether the problem was going to be wild or domestic predators. You have had cats come in, I have had domestic dogs come in.


I fence my horses in to keep them safe. That doesn't work too well when dogs in the shape of hounds climb in uninvited and cause damage. I'm sure some of them shit on the fields. It greatly inconveniences me as I have to shut some of the horses in just as cat poo on someones lawn equally inconveniences them.

There are many aspect of pet behaviour that irritate others. I find strange dogs jumping up at me, coming up to me off leads, chasing my horse when I am riding it etc etc. Their owners should keep them under control but they don''t.

I agree it can't be very nice if a cat shits in one's garden but I find it just as offensive when I have to walk round dog poo (presuming I see it) on country roads where people don't think they have to either clear up or flick it to the side. That is what happens to me daily as I walk my horse down the road to the mounting block. If I fall asleep by mistake and miss one lot it either gets into my boots or the horses. Locall people walk their dogs regularly and just leave it, often outside our gate. I just have to put up with it or clear it up myself.

I'm not saying you don't clear up, I'm sure you do but just pointing out that a lot of things that people allow their animals to do is offensive to someone else. Horses pooing in roads may well be another. Are we all going to dismount and clear up?

People don't control their animals and it seems is just a fact of life that I have to accept.

 

[palo1]

I explicitly said that it doesn't necessarily make it right, and people are entitled to their opinions on whether it is right or wrong, but it is a fact that having outdoor cats is viewed as culturally normal in the UK.

Trust you to make it about fox hunting though.

Eh? I think you may have misinterpreted my comment tbh. I was referencing a range of things - largely related to horses and dogs...

 

[equinerebel]

yes, I have probably had or cared for around 30 cats and of those only 1 was happy to be a house cat. The rest wanted to go out and indulge in cat behaviour. None of them wanted to play with toys.
Just about all were cats from shelters. They were restricted for the first couple of weeks. Not one of the thought that was great and a lifetime choice. They were very happy when let loose to roam as they wished with access to the house and everywhere else.

That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

I'm sure my horse would also love to roam unrestricted for miles as her wild ancestors would, she cannot. Fences exist, roads exist, land boundaries exist. Human constructs that changed how we kept wild animals until they became domesticated. She has never lived in a world where she has truly unlimited freedom, so she does not seek it out or miss it.

You can think of my cats as being sad creatures, longing for a world they'll never know if you like. That is not my experience of living with and caring for them.

I don't doubt that your cats also live happy and fulfilled lives.

 

[cauda equina]

I don't buy this line of reasoning -
Not everyone picks up their dog's shit, so
It's ok if my cat shits in someone else's garden

 

[scats]

My vicious predator with her prey

 

[paddy555]

I don't buy this line of reasoning -
Not everyone picks up their dog's shit, so
It's ok if my cat shits in someone else's garden

not reasoning if you are referring to me simply life as it happens.

 

[Clodagh]

I've always seen it the other way with any of my animals ie it is my job to protect them from whatever might attack them. When I used to keep poultry I always fenced them in. I would have loved to have let them loose in the garden but a run or ark was a lot safer for them whether the problem was going to be wild or domestic predators. You have had cats come in, I have had domestic dogs come in.


I fence my horses in to keep them safe. That doesn't work too well when dogs in the shape of hounds climb in uninvited and cause damage. I'm sure some of them shit on the fields. It greatly inconveniences me as I have to shut some of the horses in just as cat poo on someones lawn equally inconveniences them.

There are many aspect of pet behaviour that irritate others. I find strange dogs jumping up at me, coming up to me off leads, chasing my horse when I am riding it etc etc. Their owners should keep them under control but they don''t.

I agree it can't be very nice if a cat shits in one's garden but I find it just as offensive when I have to walk round dog poo (presuming I see it) on country roads where people don't think they have to either clear up or flick it to the side. That is what happens to me daily as I walk my horse down the road to the mounting block. If I fall asleep by mistake and miss one lot it either gets into my boots or the horses. Locall people walk their dogs regularly and just leave it, often outside our gate. I just have to put up with it or clear it up myself.

I'm not saying you don't clear up, I'm sure you do but just pointing out that a lot of things that people allow their animals to do is offensive to someone else. Horses pooing in roads may well be another. Are we all going to dismount and clear up?

People don't control their animals and it seems is just a fact of life that I have to accept.

I am trying to ignore this thread as I refuse to get angry with people I’m never going to need to speak to IRL.
I think what you and Exasperated are missing is the point that it isn’t foxes (or weasels, or pine martens , or otters, or eagles) or anything else killing my chickens. It’s a pet cat.
It doesn’t kill them any more as I’ve given up on small breeds. I love that people think that’s entirely reasonable, that I should give something up so next doors cat can have a happy and unfettered existence.

 

[Exasperated]

I've always seen it the other way with any of my animals ie it is my job to protect them from whatever might attack them. When I used to keep poultry I always fenced them in. I would have loved to have let them loose in the garden but a run or ark was a lot safer for them whether the problem was going to be wild or domestic predators. You have had cats come in, I have had domestic dogs come in.


I fence my horses in to keep them safe. That doesn't work too well when dogs in the shape of hounds climb in uninvited and cause damage. I'm sure some of them shit on the fields. It greatly inconveniences me as I have to shut some of the horses in just as cat poo on someones lawn equally inconveniences them.

There are many aspect of pet behaviour that irritate others. I find strange dogs jumping up at me, coming up to me off leads, chasing my horse when I am riding it etc etc. Their owners should keep them under control but they don''t.

I agree it can't be very nice if a cat shits in one's garden but I find it just as offensive when I have to walk round dog poo (presuming I see it) on country roads where people don't think they have to either clear up or flick it to the side. That is what happens to me daily as I walk my horse down the road to the mounting block. If I fall asleep by mistake and miss one lot it either gets into my boots or the horses. Locall people walk their dogs regularly and just leave it, often outside our gate. I just have to put up with it or clear it up myself.

I'm not saying you don't clear up, I'm sure you do but just pointing out that a lot of things that people allow their animals to do is offensive to someone else. Horses pooing in roads may well be another. Are we all going to dismount and clear up?

People don't control their animals and it seems is just a fact of life that I have to accept.

Too right, and some types of excrement far more pernicious than others: Eg. cat shit, dog shit, badger and fox shit which the dogs roll in, and human shit as left by wild campers in the wood.
Yet hens thoroughly enjoy pecking through all kinds....
How humans use them may have changed, but cats and dogs remain VERY different creatures. The significance of that difference has to be appreciated, irrespective of personal favourites.
Relevant legislation recognises it, doesn’t anthropomorphise them, treats them as the animals they are, and not extensions of people’s egos - which is what many pets have become.
People keep animals for all sorts of different reasons, and do things differently with them, but where there is legal responsibility, you HAVE to abide by it. We shot one of our own collies that went rogue onto another farm, bitter and absolutely necessary, unthinkable to keep it chained for the rest of its life - altho someone might think that ok.
My poultry’s kept OUT the garden because they scratch plants to destruction, but someone else wants to keep theirs in.....
But still don’t understand how the bantam-snatcher cat gets past electric fencing designed to keep poultry safe from foxes. Is it tunnelling under the electric mesh?

 

[paddy555]

I am trying to ignore this thread as I refuse to get angry with people I’m never going to need to speak to IRL.
I think what you and Exasperated are missing is the point that it isn’t foxes (or weasels, or pine martens , or otters, or eagles) or anything else killing my chickens. It’s a pet cat.
It doesn’t kill them any more as I’ve given up on small breeds. I love that people think that’s entirely reasonable, that I should give something up so next doors cat can have a happy and unfettered existence.

I probably should ignore as well It's very sad when pet poultry get killed. I've had lots and lost lots so I am very sympathetic to anyone losing them. I wouldn't see much difference to losing a bantam to a cat or a fox. Presumably you would be equally unhappy whatever killed the bantam?

I just don't see you can contain cats. In the countryside whilst they do damage they do equal amounts of good.. I'm not sure what next door could do about their cat. Unless you shut them in a catio, which IMHO is not any sort of existence for a creature that needs to roam and wander.

It is just a case of who is right, you because you wanted your bantam or the neighbour because they wanted their cat.

I used to have an outdoor cat that would sneak into a neighbours house throw their cat flap (no cat) and steal. Should I have done anything about it.