petition to make the Grand National safer

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Caledonia said:
Are you trying to make yourself a laughing stock, Lassisuca??:rolleyes:

If you want to use statistics to set up a petition, do your homework. I cannot believe that you read something in a newspaper as inaccurate as the Mail, or a website as twisted as AA, and base a petition on their distortions.

From an earlier post -

National deaths last 12 years

2011 - 2 from heavy falls - attributed, IMO due to fast ground.
2010 - no deaths
2009 - 1 death - not from a fall, but 'I hear the Echo' collapsed and died on the run in.
2008 - 1 death - McKelvey got injured running loose after unseating
2007 - no deaths
2006 - 1 death - Tyneandtyneagain - fall
2005 - no deaths
2004 - no deaths
2003 - no deaths
2002 - 2 deaths - The Last Fling and Manx Magic - both falls on good ground
2001 - no deaths
2000 - no deaths

I can't be bothered going further back, but 480 horses ran over the last twelve years and there have been 5 deaths from falls. More significantly the ground was good on both the days 2 horses were lost. So I guess it's to do with the speed not the fences. But how could they have forseen this weather? Also, it is dangerous to water late to change the going as false ground can be very treacherous.

I am speechless at the utter stupidity of starting a petition based on hearsay........
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Just said on ITV that there have been 33 deaths since 2000. May have heard that wrong?
 
Caledonia said:
How mind-numbingly ridiculous are you being - READ the post - you want to stop something based on figures which are WRONG.:rolleyes:

You 'care' about something which doesn't happen, so you start a petition to prevent something which isn't happening anyway?

Really, have a think about what you're doing.
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Deaths are still happening, are they not?
As you've already stated. Horses are being put into early retirement, are they not? Horses are unable to work and then sold on and then we end up with lots of ex-racers/rescues, do we not?

I respect that racing means a lot to you, but am I telling you it should be banned? Am I telling you you are a heartless what not? Am I telling you that you're cruel?

No, I am not
 
Wagtail said:
Just said on ITV that there have been 33 deaths since 2000. May have heard that wrong?
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That's journalism (in the weakest possible sense) jumping on the bandwagon.

Go onto the Racing Post site - check out EVERY National for the last 12 years, as I did. That's where my figures have come from. And they are the accurate ones.
 
teagreen said:
So, you deduce from this that I do not have normal human emotions, am not caring or sympathetic? This is where, no offence, you begin to sound silly. Everyone involved with racehorses loves them and cares about them deeply.

And it doesn't lose horses every time. Have a look at the posts above, Do you want to ban the Cheltenham Festival too? Good luck with that.. Horses dies team chasing every year. Maybe you also want to ban hacking on the roads, it seems to produce a lot of grizzly deaths.
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No, read my post again. I am referring to the term 'fluffy bunny'. For some reason there appears to be a small faction on here that likes to bandy the term about as though it is some insult. I am simply saying that I am fine with it. :D
 
Caledonia said:
That's journalism (in the weakest possible sense) jumping on the bandwagon.

Go onto the Racing Post site - check out EVERY National for the last 12 years, as I did. That's where my figures have come from. And they are the accurate ones.
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I remember a national around 10 years ago where four horses died.
 
We know that journalism is notorious for manipulating things, but perhaps the figures from the RP, are slightly biased, perhaps they're talking about horses that died directly on the course, or moments after.

I'm sure, if we do some scanning, that we could find horses that have died as a result of the fall, later on that is.

I'm sure that other horses have had to be pts as a consequence of their injuries sustained, perhaps they've forgotten those figures.
 
amymay said:
That makes no sense whatsoever.......
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Of course it does. This winter horses have been running on dreadful soft ground, so bad that a load of meetings were cancelled. Suddenly, the weather dries up and the ground changes like lightning to quick. They travel much faster on good ground, so the falls are harder.

With the smaller fences, the race is run quicker - jumping the majority of these fences is no different to jumping bullfinches.
 
lassiesuca said:
Horses are being put into early retirement, are they not? Horses are unable to work and then sold on and then we end up with lots of ex-racers/rescues, do we not?
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They are retired from Racing, not retired from work! Would you rather they go on racing into their late teens?!
 
lassiesuca said:
Perhaps if we didn't wear them out at such a young age, then we wouldn't have so many ex-racers in rescue homes, or needing homes, and then the REAL rescue cases can be taken in and given the correct attention they need. Instead of taking a backseat with the influx of all these racers?
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Where is your information comming from?

No. 1 A lot of race horses (flat) retire in relative youth - often to go on to do worthwile and valuable jobs elsewhere. Colt's and Fillies who are proven retire to stud very young - and enjoy some quite wonderful years.

No. 2 Horses running over hurdles usually run for longer - and providing they stay sound can be competing well in to their 12th year.

No. 3 'All' competition / sports horses need a home after they have retired from their 'job'. Racing is no unique in this respect.

No. 4 Are there really so many ex-racers in Rescue Soceity's - or are you confusing this with Rehabilitation Society's.
 
Caledonia said:
That's journalism (in the weakest possible sense) jumping on the bandwagon.

Go onto the Racing Post site - check out EVERY National for the last 12 years, as I did. That's where my figures have come from. And they are the accurate ones.
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Those figures are wrong, I'm afraid. That horse died on the run up last year. We all remember it. Yet your figures show none. So that completely blows any credibility for the racing post figures.
 
lassiesuca said:
Deaths are still happening, are they not?
As you've already stated. Horses are being put into early retirement, are they not? Horses are unable to work and then sold on and then we end up with lots of ex-racers/rescues, do we not?

I respect that racing means a lot to you, but am I telling you it should be banned? Am I telling you you are a heartless what not? Am I telling you that you're cruel?

No, I am not
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Dont take offence, when somebody points out incorrect details.

I dont agree with your aims, but in the long run if your petition is based on real facts, you will have more credibility, and therefore more likely to get the result you want.

Stop being stroppy and petulant - just accept the correction with good grace, and say thank you!
 
amymay said:
Where is your information comming from?

No. 1 A lot of race horses (flat) retire in relative youth - often to go on to do worthwile and valuable jobs elsewhere. Colt's and Fillies who are proven retire to stud very young - and enjoy some quite wonderful years.

No. 2 Horses running over hurdles usually run for longer - and providing they stay sound can be competing well in to their 12th year.

No. 3 'All' competition / sports horses need a home after they have retired from their 'job'. Racing is no unique in this respect.

No. 4 Are there really so many ex-racers in Rescue Soceity's - or are you confusing this with Rehabilitation Society's.
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My information is coming from horses I meet in everyday life.

At my yard, we have three ex-racers, who are 5, 6 and 9.

The 5 year old was taken off the track because he was backed very young, and at the age of five has developed kissing spines, arthritis and cannot be ridden because he's in such a poor state.

The 6 year old was going to be slaughtered, however because his owner took him on, he's being bought on slowly, however is freaked by the smallest thing.

The 9 year old was also retired, because he's been passed from home to home since the age of 5. He was sadly PTS the other month, because injuries sustained from racing several years ago, meant that he struggled to walk properly, he was in a lot of pain, but box rest wasn't for him. Bute etc didn't help him.

At my old yard, were two ex-racers, one of whom had to spend months trying to get him near a mounting block because he would just bolt and the other who at the age of 7 was retired from severe arthritis.

That's my source, okay only a small fraction, but I could go on for a while with all the cases I've heard.
 
lassiesuca said:
Deaths are still happening, are they not?
As you've already stated. Horses are being put into early retirement, are they not? Horses are unable to work and then sold on and then we end up with lots of ex-racers/rescues, do we not?

I respect that racing means a lot to you, but am I telling you it should be banned? Am I telling you you are a heartless what not? Am I telling you that you're cruel?

No, I am not
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lassiesuca said:
We know that journalism is notorious for manipulating things, but perhaps the figures from the RP, are slightly biased, perhaps they're talking about horses that died directly on the course, or moments after.

I'm sure, if we do some scanning, that we could find horses that have died as a result of the fall, later on that is.

I'm sure that other horses have had to be pts as a consequence of their injuries sustained, perhaps they've forgotten those figures.
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Your petition is supposedly to alter the National, yet here you are attacking racing in general now. Either back up your statistics or admit you are wrong.

The RP page has the annual results, it's not a article laid out with a spin on it. EVERY single race is recorded on there, and it's available for anyone to view. It's a factual results sheet.
If you look through the form of horses that run in it, you'll see that the majority go on to race elsewhere. There is one horse, Graphic Approach, who was PTS a month later -that is a rarity, but you can be sure it was reported because the press know this sells papers.

Go and check the facts, don't just take me at my word. It's all out there.
 
Wagtail said:
Those figures are wrong, I'm afraid. That horse died on the run up last year. We all remember it. Yet your figures show none. So that completely blows any credibility for the racing post figures.
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Perhaps you can't read, Wagtail? Look at the list I made - I mention I Hear The Echo in it. However, he didn't die as a result of a fall, which is what the sensationalism is about. He could have died in the field, his heart gave out. There is no way that can be attributed solely the fact he'd run in the National.
 
Caledonia said:
Your petition is supposedly to alter the National, yet here you are attacking racing in general now. Either back up your statistics or admit you are wrong.

The RP page has the annual results, it's not a article laid out with a spin on it. EVERY single race is recorded on there, and it's available for anyone to view. It's a factual results sheet.
If you look through the form of horses that run in it, you'll see that the majority go on to race elsewhere. There is one horse, Graphic Approach, who was PTS a month later -that is a rarity, but you can be sure it was reported because the press know this sells papers.

Go and check the facts, don't just take me at my word. It's all out there.
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But your figures are wrong. I have just given you an example of why. You need to look somewhere else.
 
sprite1978 said:
Dont take offence, when somebody points out incorrect details.

I dont agree with your aims, but in the long run if your petition is based on real facts, you will have more credibility, and therefore more likely to get the result you want.

Stop being stroppy and petulant - just accept the correction with good grace, and say thank you!
Click to expand...

Without playing tit for tat, although now I am, I'm not the only one throwing my rattle out of the pram. I'm actually remaining pretty calm, although a little niffed that my facts are wrong, naturally. But now I'm confused because I'm hearing different figures from everywhere.


Just to state, caledonia, the RP is also a paper, which, journalists write for. Are journalists, as you've already stated, biased any way?
 
Caledonia said:
Perhaps you can't read, Wagtail? Look at the list I made - I mention I Hear The Echo in it. However, he didn't die as a result of a fall, which is what the sensationalism is about. He could have died in the field, his heart gave out. There is no way that can be attributed solely the fact he'd run in the National.
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Part of the petition is to shorten the course. If this had been done he wouldn't have died. You are concentrating only on the fences part of the petition. You need to do what you keep advising others to do and read.
 
Caledonia said:
That's journalism (in the weakest possible sense) jumping on the bandwagon.

Go onto the Racing Post site - check out EVERY National for the last 12 years, as I did. That's where my figures have come from. And they are the accurate ones.
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Actually your figures aren't 100% correct.
You stated no deaths in 2003, but Goguenard was PTS after the race. In 2007, Graphic Approach was PTS one month after the race due to injuries sustained at Becher's.

I do agree that using The Daily Mail's statistics is ridiculous though, because they make it appear that far more horses were killed during the race. Surely if someone is going to petition to make the National safer they should be petitioning to make racing in general safer?!

1998 is the worst National I remember. I think 3 horses were PTS after falling in the race: Pashto, Do Rightly and Griffin's Bar. Only 6 finished that year!! I wonder what the ground was like?
 
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lassiesuca said:
My information is coming from horses I meet in everyday life.

At my yard, we have three ex-racers, who are 5, 6 and 9.

The 5 year old was taken off the track because he was backed very young, and at the age of five has developed kissing spines, arthritis and cannot be ridden because he's in such a poor state.

The 6 year old was going to be slaughtered, however because his owner took him on, he's being bought on slowly, however is freaked by the smallest thing.

The 9 year old was also retired, because he's been passed from home to home since the age of 5. He was sadly PTS the other month, because injuries sustained from racing several years ago, meant that he struggled to walk properly, he was in a lot of pain, but box rest wasn't for him. Bute etc didn't help him.

At my old yard, were two ex-racers, one of whom had to spend months trying to get him near a mounting block because he would just bolt and the other who at the age of 7 was retired from severe arthritis.

That's my source, okay only a small fraction, but I could go on for a while with all the cases I've heard.
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So your opinions are based on 3 cases, and few you've heard of.

Three rejects from one industry of equine sport. One has a conformation issue, one has behavioural issues, and one has a medical issue. Show me the proof that any of those came from racing......
 
If you have never looked at the Racing Post site, take a look.

It has the results from every race in Britain from, well, forever. Along with comments on how the horses ran (not written by journalists but by the Timeform analysts) and it also states which horses died. It is a factual list - the results section is not altered in any way at all by journalists. It's like the BSJA site or BE sites.
 
lassiesuca said:
Without playing tit for tat, although now I am, I'm not the only one throwing my rattle out of the pram. I'm actually remaining pretty calm, although a little niffed that my facts are wrong, naturally. But now I'm confused because I'm hearing different figures from everywhere.


Just to state, caledonia, the RP is also a paper, which, journalists write for. Are journalists, as you've already stated, biased any way?
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It is notoriously difficult to get correct figures about mortalities for the national. Your figures are as accurate as Caledonias. :) The most common figure quoted for fatalities since 200 is 30 horses.
 
Wagtail said:
I remember a national around 10 years ago where four horses died.
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Really? Please point me to it - it certainly hasn't happened in the last 12 years.

Oh, and I care enough about racing and the horses that run in it to have the courtesy to know the names of the ones that died - to you they are just numbers to back up some misplaced sense of wrongdoing.

But then, it's easy to potshot on a forum, rather than go and do something constructive about real welfare issues.
 
amymay said:
So your opinions are based on 3 cases, and few you've heard of.

Three rejects from one industry of equine sport. One has a conformation issue, one has behavioural issues, and one has a medical issue. Show me the proof that any of those came from racing......
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Were you not suggesting the race needs to be looked at and the course made safer by reducing runners, in the other thread? :confused:
 
Wagtail said:
It is notoriously difficult to get correct figures about mortalities for the national. Your figures are as accurate as Caledonias. :) The most common figure quoted for fatalities since 200 is 30 horses.
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Go and look at the RESULTS - they are NOT manipulated, they are records. It clearly states the horses that died under their names in the finishing order.

Or are you too lazy, preferring to believe sensationalism shoved in your face over facts that don't suit your case?:rolleyes:
 
Wagtail said:
Were you not suggesting the race needs to be looked at and the course made safer by reducing runners, in the other thread? :confused:
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Yes I was. And I firmly believe that the GN does need to be looked at and reviewed. Less horses, no handicaps and better qualifications for horse and rider.

However, I am not anti racing, anti GN or anti basing my facts on good solid information and research.
 
Wagtail said:
It is notoriously difficult to get correct figures about mortalities for the national. Your figures are as accurate as Caledonias. :) The most common figure quoted for fatalities since 200 is 30 horses.
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No I'm sorry but that's not true. The 33 stated by the Mail refers to the National meeting, not the Grand National itself. Her figures are not as accurate as Caledonia's although, as I pointed out, Caledonia's figures aren't 100% accurate either.
 
amymay said:
So your opinions are based on 3 cases, and few you've heard of.

Three rejects from one industry of equine sport. One has a conformation issue, one has behavioural issues, and one has a medical issue. Show me the proof that any of those came from racing......
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5 which I've actively helped in from pretty much day 1.

I know they're all from racing.

The medically affected TB, sustained his injuries on a race track, I can't tell you which one, because I honestly don't know. So yes, all types of race DOES cause accident, fair enough.

Do I need to produce their papers or something? :confused:
 
Wagtail said:
Part of the petition is to shorten the course. If this had been done he wouldn't have died.
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And you base that on WHAT? Did you see the autopsy? If a horse is going to have a heart attack, it will - a piece of work could have triggered that as easily as the race did.
 
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