petition to make the Grand National safer

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lassiesuca said:
Is Grand National not held at Aintree, which is the same course as the GN anyway...
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No, incorrect again. The main GN course is a far cry from the course the majority of races are run on at Aintree.

I can understand that you are genuinely concerned, but if you're going to make a petition, do lots of research, so that you can present factual information for people to take on board.

I love the GN, and wouldn't sign your petition as it stands, but I do agree with you that the number of runners should be lowered. :)
 
Wagtail said:
It is silly to equate running the national with training at home. Caledonia used the term 'just as easily'. That is ridiculous.
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So why equate what Caledonia said regarding a piece of work to pootling around in a school. You are being deliberately obtuse.

And if you have racing connections - you will fully understand just how hard they can work during their 'work' and what strain is put on heart and lungs.
 
amymay said:
In previous years this was more than possible, and happend quite commonly if a horse or rider was prone (for any reason).
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In previous years, before the course was modified there was no way around the jumps, so fallen horses had to be moved to the side. Often out of camera view angles. The jump was therefore jumpable!
 
Wagtail said:
Lol. You do have a strange way of looking at things. Yes a pootle round the school is just as hard as running the National. I see where you are coming from now. ;)
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I look at things like equine heart attacks from a basis of experience of horses having a great life and doing work they love - galloping, hunting, racing etc.

I don't think it's much of a life for any horse if their 'work' is only a pootle round the school
 
amymay said:
So why equate what Caledonia said regarding a piece of work to pootling around in a school. You are being deliberately obtuse.

And if you have racing connections - you will fully understand just how hard they can work during their 'work' and what strain is put on heart and lungs.
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Are you trying to say that a work out on the gallops puts as much strain on the horse as the GN? So you are supporting the comment by Caledonia that the horse was 'just as likely' to have collapsed and died as he was running the GN? No where near, I would say.
 
Obviously it's sad. However I don't believe the GN course is too dangerous, or cruel. Those horses lived fantastic lives, and would have died almost instantly, with the best veterinary help imediately at the scene.

The only issue I have with the racing industry is what happens to the TBs after their careers are over. A certain percentage are successfully rehomed (I have one), but a larger percentage are not - perhaps if the plights of some of those unfortunate ex-race horses unable to find good homes were on live television ..................
 
To be fair it doesn't sound like you really know what you are talking about! Neither do I, so don't feel it is my place to interfere.

21 horses that were fit and well kept before they died, in the huge the scale of animal cruelty and welfare, is certainly not a big issue in my eyes. Maybe your time and effort would be better spent elsewhere?
 
Caledonia said:
I look at things like equine heart attacks from a basis of experience of horses having a great life and doing work they love - galloping, hunting, racing etc.

I don't think it's much of a life for any horse if their 'work' is only a pootle round the school
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:confused: Please show where I have stated that the horses do not enjoy galloping, hunting and racing. Also, please show where I have said that my horses only ever pootle around the school. I am not sure what point you are trying to make here.

To recap, we were arguing about whether a horse was less likely to have dropped dead if the GN was shorter. I said that he wouldn't have. You said he was 'just as likely' to. My logic is that he collapsed and died on the run up. Had the course been half a mile shorter logic would have it that he would not have collapsed and died.

We were not arguing about whether horses enjoy galloping. I am with you there. Of course they do!
 
Wagtail said:
Are you trying to say that a work out on the gallops puts as much strain on the horse as the GN? So you are supporting the comment by Caledonia that the horse was 'just as likely' to have collapsed and died as he was running the GN? No where near, I would say.
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READ what I wrote. A horse with a heart condition, could go at ANY time when the heart rate is raised. If they have the physiology predisposed to heart failure, unknown to the trainer, then it's a case of when, not if.

The GN being the GN itself had nothing to with that. It could have been ANY race, or a piece of work. Healthy people die suddenly of heart attacks, so do horses.
 
Wagtail said:
Are you trying to say that a work out on the gallops puts as much strain on the horse as the GN? So you are supporting the comment by Caledonia that the horse was 'just as likely' to have collapsed and died as he was running the GN? No where near, I would say.
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Once heart and lung function reach a certain capacity - they can physically work no harder. The heart and lungs will be put under just as much strain during 'work' as in racing - however, the duration will be longer.

So yes, I am of the opinion that if a horse dies on the track - it is just as likely to die during it's work - it's natural biology I supose, because the horse with a weakness is allready predisposed.......

But I suppose if you are only used to horses pootling around a school - then yes, the stresses would be significantly reduced.
 
Caledonia said:
READ what I wrote. A horse with a heart condition, could go at ANY time when the heart rate is raised. If they have the physiology predisposed to heart failure, unknown to the trainer, then it's a case of when, not if.

The GN being the GN itself had nothing to with that. It could have been ANY race, or a piece of work. Healthy people die suddenly of heart attacks, so do horses.
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Best Mate.
 
Wagtail said:
Are you trying to say that a work out on the gallops puts as much strain on the horse as the GN? So you are supporting the comment by Caledonia that the horse was 'just as likely' to have collapsed and died as he was running the GN? No where near, I would say.
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A TRAINERS job is to TRAIN the horses so that they arrive at the racecoure as fit & prepared as they can be to do the job in hand.
If it makes it any easier for you, think of how marathon runners prepare for those races. They don't ever run the full distance in TRAINING. They do shorter runs (still measured in miles) and do other fittening work to ensure they are as fit & prepared as possible for the race itself.
Is that easier for you to understand?
 
Caledonia and Amymay. I have a horse here for training right now who after winning numerous races started to fail as a racer. Lovely mare, but when I got her vetted, the vet said 'well I know why she's not a very good racer'. She had grade four heart murmurs audible in all four chambers of the heart. She had arrived with me only 3 days after coming last in her final race and as fit as stunning as you could ever want. That horse was able to cope with her one and a half mile flat races and progressed to hurdles with some success (a couple of places) and she coped with any any amount of training without dropping dead. But do you think she'd have survived the National?
 
Equine sport is dangerous for both horses and riders, accidents can happen whether eventing, jumping, racing, hunting, even hacking out, which lead to death of either, whilst I was incredibly saddened to see the tarpaulin and screens at F20 and Bechers on Saturday, that wouldn't make me sign a petition to ban/try to make safer the GN for all the reasons already stated about speed, etc.
Experts said on analysis of the race that the pace was too fast from the off, that is what probably caused the deaths rather than fence height/distance etc, it's a massive race, adrenelin is flowing, blood is up and there is little, once the tape goes up that can stop that.
On another point, in 2001, animal aid reported that 1 in 31 National Hunt horses 'failed to survive the season' being killed on or off the course.....it is unclear how many of these were attributable to racing and how many to other injuries or illness, a good example of how statistics can be made to say what you want them to...if these were down JUST to racing then over the last 12 years the GN has lost 1 in 96 horses, which would suggest that it is not as dangerous as we might think and that what we have here is a knee-jerk reaction to the oh so sad, but 'unavoidable' (unless racing is banned altogether) loss of two fine animals.
 
Wagtail said:
Caledonia and Amymay. I have a horse here for training right now who after winning numerous races started to fail as a racer. Lovely mare, but when I got her vetted, the vet said 'well I know why she's not a very good racer'. She had grade four heart murmurs audible in all four chambers of the heart. She had arrived with me only 3 days after coming last in her final race and as fit as stunning as you could ever want. That horse was able to cope with her one and a half mile flat races and progressed to hurdles with some success (a couple of places) and she coped with any any amount of training without dropping dead. But do you think she'd have survived the National?
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But she would have been trained differently if she were to enter the National, so she may not have survived the training. That is not the fault of the race.
 
Zebedee said:
A TRAINERS job is to TRAIN the horses so that they arrive at the racecoure as fit & prepared as they can be to do the job in hand.
If it makes it any easier for you, think of how marathon runners prepare for those races. They don't ever run the full distance in TRAINING. They do shorter runs (still measured in miles) and do other fittening work to ensure they are as fit & prepared as possible for the race itself.
Is that easier for you to understand?
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:D You lot do get so hot under the collar. I understood that very well before you attempted to patronise me. But thanks, anyway. :)
 
Wagtail said:
But do you think she'd have survived the National?
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Who knows? That is the problem with heart problems. And of course, we don't know what kind of distance she was used to running.....

I guess what we can say with certainty is that she'd probably have come last:rolleyes:
 
Wagtail said:
Caledonia and Amymay. I have a horse here for training right now who after winning numerous races started to fail as a racer. Lovely mare, but when I got her vetted, the vet said 'well I know why she's not a very good racer'. She had grade four heart murmurs audible in all four chambers of the heart. She had arrived with me only 3 days after coming last in her final race and as fit as stunning as you could ever want. That horse was able to cope with her one and a half mile flat races and progressed to hurdles with some success (a couple of places) and she coped with any any amount of training without dropping dead. But do you think she'd have survived the National?
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She wouldn't have even qualified...

They don't race any old crap TB in the GN. They are highly trained athletes - the best of the best.
It's like saying I wouldn't manage the London Marathon. Of course I wouldn't.
 
Wagtail said:
:D You lot do get so hot under the collar. I understood that very well before you attempted to patronise me. But thanks, anyway. :)
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Apologies. The content of your posts led me to believe that your understanding of how racehorses were prepared to do the job they have been bred for was somewhat limited.

There was no attempt to patronise. Had that been my aim I would have suceeded :)
 
I haven't read all the posts but interestingly they have done a poll on This Morning and 74% of people think the GN should be banned! That shocks me actually but I am thinking that is just a knee jerk reaction to the weekend's race and the 2 horse deaths that were very obvious for all those watching to see.

Now, I know not every year horses die but quite often they do but often they have fallen, got up and had to be destroyed but this is away from the fences and, although it will be mentioned at the end about fatalities, people don't see it so don't seem to have such strong reactions to it.

I think it would be sad to see the GN go and I don't think you could ban it. If you did then, in reality you'd have to ban ALL racing and what on earth would happne to all the horses in training? It is a huge industry, you can't just go about banning things that thousands of people enjoy every day.

Maybe they should be showing people images of the horses killed on the roads daily, or show farm animals being slaughtered - would people then say we should all become vegetarian and ban farming? People are shocked by what they see and, as said they have a knee-jerk reaction and say "ban it".

Remember the year i think 7 horses died at the Cheltemham festval? That was in the papers and the same debates went on. Nothing changed. Sadly sometimes these things happen - no it should not be seen as necessarily acceptable but unfortunately if a horse makes a mistake at a fence it can fall. Maybe more training should go in to improving their jumping ability? I know Yogi Breisner works with a few of the racehorse trainers ti improve the horses jumping technique - I believe he trained the Cheltenham GC winner? Surely things like this are improving the sport in general - they are making a concerted effort to lessen the chance of a horse making an error?

I would like to see the GN stay the only change I think they maybe should make is to reduce the numbers in it. I am not sure whether it would stop the odd fatality - sometimes it's just blooming bad luck -some horses have horrendous falls and bounce back up and are none the worse. Others have what seems to be a bit of a stumble and sustain a fatal injury. Mine could do the same in the field.
 
One of the issues the GN has is that its a handicap - this for me presents several issues as its the largest handicap anywhere in the world over fences. We do not see better quality horses in it because its just that a handicap and so they would be hugely penalised for top weight especially over that distance. Also several trainers approach the race with a degree of caution and will spend their time protecting the horses handicap rather than testing the horses out to see if they are up to the job. The whole handicap system has its negatives and positives but ultimately we do not see the superb horses who win all the other grade 1s throughout the season but you do get to see horses like Mon Mome bolt up at odds of 100-1. Anyway for me the problem was the ground - the national is always horrible to watch on good ground.

In CR there is a post about what happened to certain eventers that have never been seen again and guess what injury or death are high on the lists. These eventers like the racers will have been trained, protected and looked after yet still the attrition of the sport will affect them. Spring Along died at Gatcombe from heart failure yet there are no petitions on here about it. Dressage has a huge attrition rate but you never see it on TV! Ok so they might not die on TV but for every GP horse there are probably 40 who have not made it and out of those I would guess half would be due to injury.

I think some of you are terribly blinkered in your views and need to look at the bigger picture. These snap decisions from watching one race are not healthy for any sport. I bet there are more problems in the UK from obese or poorly looked after horses and bad riding than the whole of the racing industry can create.
 
ladyt25 said:
I haven't read all the posts but interestingly they have done a poll on This Morning and 74% of people think the GN should be banned! That shocks me actually but I am thinking that is just a knee jerk reaction to the weekend's race and the 2 horse deaths that were very obvious for all those watching to see.
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But how many of those 74% are horsey people that actually understand and follow racing? Not many I bet :rolleyes:

The National has sparked this reaction because so many where watching, where as the two horses that were killed in flat races haven't been mentioned! I think a better argument/poll would be to ask if racing should be banned all together (which I would still say No, definitely not!), I don't think it is fair to single the National out when horses die everyday on the race track, sad, but that is how it is!
 
Wagtail said:
Caledonia and Amymay. I have a horse here for training right now who after winning numerous races started to fail as a racer. Lovely mare, but when I got her vetted, the vet said 'well I know why she's not a very good racer'. She had grade four heart murmurs audible in all four chambers of the heart. She had arrived with me only 3 days after coming last in her final race and as fit as stunning as you could ever want. That horse was able to cope with her one and a half mile flat races and progressed to hurdles with some success (a couple of places) and she coped with any any amount of training without dropping dead. But do you think she'd have survived the National?
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That's the whole point you can't tell, it's a lottery.

I doubt a winning middle distance flat mare would have coped with the National - nothing to do with her heart (which incidentally could easily have materialised AFTER her last race) - but the fact she's not bred or trained that way.

Trainer I knew retired a horse with a fibrillating heart. Went to a hunting home, and about 5 years later died underneath the owner when they were stood still on point. Another trainer I know had her homebred 5yo out to qualify it.He whinnied and dropped dead underneath her. Heart attack.
I could go on - there is no rhyme or reason to it.
 
RuthnMeg said:
Not for me either, fed up of 'cotton wool' attitude for almost everything these days. There is a risk in everything, those who take part, know the risks.
Keep The Grand National as it is, it doesn't need to be modified any more.
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The horses dont know the risk or have any choice in if they take part or not. Its time something more was done to make it safer in racing in general.
 
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