Physical "limitation" vs the end of the road.

I'm in this position right now. 2 of my horses are not 100% sound, my grey I used to event and SJ but he did his tendon last year seriously, he did seem to be improving well to the point even the vets were surprised so he can easily walk and trot under saddle but he's a horse who is not very careful. He'll gallop round the field one day and the next be quite sore on that leg again so he's not very clever at being sensible with hit. So I dont trust him to tell me when it hurts, hence why I dont canter him and probably never will. I had thought about doing intro dressage on him eventually but I dont even think I can trust him to do that, he's such an honest boy that he'd carry on even if it hurt!

My other horse went lame about 5 months ago now, farrier/vet/physio checks cannot find a cause. He's had x-rays etc. which show nothing and currently has heart bars. His front legs are a bit wonky so they all think his confirmation has caught up with him now he's older. He's not in any pain, bute trials don't do anything. And he is perfectly willing to walk/trot/canter etc. and it really doesn't bother him at all but he does take some quite lame / stiff steps every nown and again especially on a tight turn / circle. I made the decision that even if he comes right now, I'll never jump him again as I don't think he should now. I have tried the odd intro dressage which he's done well in but he can't manage a prelim. I didn't feel comfortable last dressage event though, even though he was perfectly happy and enjoyed his day out! I'm offering him as a gentle hack on permanent loan as he's brillliant for hacking (no tight turns) and could give someone years of enjoyment. But I do find most people do want "all or nothing" so even as a gentle hack people still want 100% sound horses which is a shame as they slightly lame ones still have a lot to give!
 
"Medicate" to what degree??
Is Pentosan/Adequan OK? Corrective shoeing?
I think most/all of us would draw the line at needing to give horses NSAIDs (bute etc) to keep them sound, but some of the other treatments are a much greyer area.
I give all my endurance horses Adequan/Pentosan as a preventive. Are they medicated?
I'm not having a go - I genuinely don't know the answer! Then there's all the stuff like cortisone injections for joints, injections for kissing spines... If your horse needs weekly massage/regular Bowen/acupuncture to keep him happy and sound, is he medicated? I personally treated a showjumper who we kept going with acupuncture for a good two years after he would have otherwise been retired (because he would have needed NSAIDs to stay sound). Were we medicating him?? Or is it OK because we were harbessing his body's own anti inflammatory powers?
It's all a bit fuzzy.
Speaking personally: we have a mare here who is a cracker of a Pony Club pony - bold, careful, gentle, a real confidence giver. But she only "does" kids. She's big enough to carry an adult but she doesn't like it - she gives grown ups a really hard time! I don't know if that's physical, but we accept that's the way she is and she is and will always be a kids' pony, even though she's 14hh, built like a brick outhouse, and well able to carry a small adult.
My own endurance horse is great over 80km (50 miles) but he will never be a sub 6 hour horse. He does not have the freakish heart and lung capacity for it. I accept that, and we do our rides in 6 and a half hours. He's sound and fit, but 6 and a half hours (12km/hr or 7.7 mph) is his physical limit.
 
TPO said:
Based on the OP's case study I think anyone with an ounce of moral fibre knows that this rider is in the wrong. Their competitive wants are being placed above this horse's welfare. The OP has voiced their concern (& I would do just about anything based on a feel OP got from any of mine) and been shot down. If I read correctly the rider in question has a trainer/ gets lessons/ attends clinics so I'm presuming that there are others on board with her decision. I think what she should do is fairly obvious but I don't imagine there are many other ways to explain this to her so ignorance and/or her want rules...
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That's a rather extreme way of putting it! It wasn't a "case study", it was a horse I saw at a horse show that I know the history on a bit so, when asked what I thought had happened, I answered that I thought the horse was reaching his limit, at least on the day, and didn't have enough extra to make up for a rider error. As I said, I might have it TOTALLY wrong, especially not having seen the horse out for some time, but on the day he was tight, reaching for the back bar, stuttering off the ground, peering, swapping off and doing various things that made him look pressured. Landing on the oxer didn't seem, to me, the first sign of trouble from a completely observational point of view.

How I read the OP(ost) was should we medicate horses to keep them going. Perhaps because it was a discussion I was in the middle of at the time and/or because it might be something I'm faced with in the not too distant future.
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Hmm, I don't think I said "medicate". I may have said "manage" which is completely different. Managing a horse means you individualise the horse's care, job, riding etc. to keep it performing well (however you define that). This may or may not require vet treatment or other modalities. But actually my original point was almost the opposite - if a horse is happy at one level and not at the next level, why not just keep it at the lower level?

I've had it engrained in me, practically from birth, that you don't medicate to keep a horse going at it's current level. You down grade to a level of work it is comfortable with, whether in current home or another more suitable home, and if a level of comfort can't be found then the poor animal must be in an unfair level of discomfort so pts for their benefit.

I realise it's a sketchy pov as, in my head, it applies to medicating joints but not other things that require medical intervention like colic :/

I also realise that many horses are medicated and as such have an improved quality of life and/or can continue at a level that meets the owner/ riders wants and uses. I'm aware its a ' normal' maintenance/ management occurrence for many, many horses of differing ages and levels but personally I just ( currently) struggle to get my head around the ethics of it. I'm in no way saying anything is right or wrong, black or white, etc

That's just what I took the OP's post to be asking and with a rare day off work and resulting extra 3 hrs in bed I'd nothing better to do than gut spill :)
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I don't think there is a "one size fits all" answer. If we ask horses questions then we have to give them the tools to answer them but that is going to be very individual and, as above, involves many, many more factors than medicating. It can be very straightforward. For example, some horses need to be very fit to jump comfortably at a certain level - get them fit or don't jump them at that level! Or oldvic's example about a horse that will jump at the very edge of it's ability with one rider but even that rider (especially that rider) would likely advise someone less experienced to keep the horse lower so it could have a bit in the tank to make up for the occasional mistake and absorb a few more knocks without finding its limit.

I'm not even sure the ethics of medicating are that cut and dried. I avail myself of all sorts of NSAIDs. My dog is racking up a considerable bill in the name of quality of life. Do we use the tools we have or not? More science always brings more questions! Also, I think many people have a very optimistic view of what vet work can do - it won't make a horse jump higher, or run faster, or otherwise be better than nature intended. (Obviously we are talking about what is allowed.) Neither will "natural" supplements or any kind of body work. I think it does get tricky when you are fixing horses just to break them again but that is rare (and usually done through ignorance). Also, life is fatal. We are all getting older and breaking down - staying on the sofa won't fix that. Many horses are happier and healthier doing what they can and consigning anything that needs any outside help at all to a field doesn't seem practical or even humane.

Which, as I said, was not really the original question. It was much more to the idea that there might be physical reasons that a horse can be comfortable at one level but not step up and I was curious as to how people viewed this conversation, especially here where it is much less likely that someone will just TELL a rider (outside of a structured training program) if that's what they think is happening.
 
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OwnedbyJoe said:
"Medicate" to what degree??
Is Pentosan/Adequan OK? Corrective shoeing?
I think most/all of us would draw the line at needing to give horses NSAIDs (bute etc) to keep them sound, but some of the other treatments are a much greyer area.
I give all my endurance horses Adequan/Pentosan as a preventive. Are they medicated?
I'm not having a go - I genuinely don't know the answer! Then there's all the stuff like cortisone injections for joints, injections for kissing spines... If your horse needs weekly massage/regular Bowen/acupuncture to keep him happy and sound, is he medicated? I personally treated a showjumper who we kept going with acupuncture for a good two years after he would have otherwise been retired (because he would have needed NSAIDs to stay sound). Were we medicating him?? Or is it OK because we were harbessing his body's own anti inflammatory powers?
It's all a bit fuzzy.
Speaking personally: we have a mare here who is a cracker of a Pony Club pony - bold, careful, gentle, a real confidence giver. But she only "does" kids. She's big enough to carry an adult but she doesn't like it - she gives grown ups a really hard time! I don't know if that's physical, but we accept that's the way she is and she is and will always be a kids' pony, even though she's 14hh, built like a brick outhouse, and well able to carry a small adult.
My own endurance horse is great over 80km (50 miles) but he will never be a sub 6 hour horse. He does not have the freakish heart and lung capacity for it. I accept that, and we do our rides in 6 and a half hours. He's sound and fit, but 6 and a half hours (12km/hr or 7.7 mph) is his physical limit.
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I guess everyone has their own perspective based on their experiences and surroundings so it would be a rarity for two people to view a situation in exactly the same way. What's that saying? Ask three horse people a question and get five opinions!

For example I'm 3yrs in to being barefoot and as such I can no longer see any good in shoeing or how it can work/ help in the way it is claimed. I'm not saying I'm 100% right in my view but that is my view based on my learnings and experience. That wasn't always the case as up until 2010 I had my horses shod. So while I currently hold the view that I have on medicating joints that's not to say it will always be my view ;)

With regards to your questions: I've never heard of Pentosan but it's my (& only my) opinion that using Adequan counts as medicating. If the horse didn't ' need' it and/or it didn't do anything then you wouldn't be using it.

I don't see corrective shoeing as a medical intervention. However as I said above I now don't see it as helping at all with it at best masking an issue so I'd say the more a horse 'needs' shoes the more it needs them off BUT I wouldn't have been saying that 4yrs ago when my QH was in vet recommended wedged eggbars...

No I don't see therapy in the form of acupuncture, physio, massage etc as medicating and I think this sort of practice should be encouraged and part of the management of just about every horse.

I also agree with MM's pov and her " all or nothing" comment. I realise time doesn't heal everything but it's the one thing so many seem sort on as they appear to be looking for instant gratification. That follows on from another thread on here about saying no to vets and the time scales imposed by insurance companies etc
 
I don't know how to do the fancy quote thing but in response to Tarrsteps I think my reply helps illustrate different perspectives of the same thing. My eyes were seeing the same words but my head was computing something different. Again, as I said, this was probably due to reading the OP in the middle of an email discussion about medicating joints.

One of my many ( many, many) faults is that I tend to see in black or white only. That in turn leads to me having opinions like those expressed that the horse (& I acknowledge that case study was a poor choice but I couldn't think of anything else at the time and meant no offence by using it) should be kept at the level that it is comfortable and to ask more I'd selfish.

Even though I believe in my pov currently they are all subject to change so even if people don't agree I think having discussions of this manner are useful. You can't know what you don't know
 
Absolutely! And the more information people have, the more informed their decisions.

As an aside, I'm interested that you can say no to medicating and yes to acupuncture, since it is unequivocally understood to produce analgesia, whatever else it may or may not do. I understand the effects produced can be so extreme it's possible to do surgery using no other form of pain relief!

To the endurance comment, my experience is 'traditional' endurance riders are very well versed in this topic. I think the constant monitoring of stress levels gets people thinking about HOW the horse is coping with the work, not just going by the fact they haven't fallen over yet. I fear this may have changed at the top level though. :(
 
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I have a mare, who Tarrsteps knows, with a jugular thrombosis following IV medication so her competitive limitations are unusual as they are not related to soundness issues or pain. The resulting scar tissue in her neck makes it very difficult for her to work into a competition frame as it may be impinging on her airway if she comes onto the vertical. She had a considerable amount of time off and then just hacking due to lack of facilities. Now I have an arena I was hoping to get her back out at BD. She cannot currently work in a good enough frame for elementary tests but is taking the contact forward and working into the contact in front of the vertical. I know even at the lower levels she is technically working properly but some judges may just see that she is above or forward of the vertical.

Atm I'm not well enough to compete but have seriously considered her future in dressage and whether it is unfair to expect her to continue in this area or whether as she is comfortable enough being ridden into a forward contact to try jumping/hacking instead. For now we are working on getting her fit and playing it by ear. She will end up doing what she can within in her limitations as there really is no way to medicate or help her change her frame without putting her life at serious risk by surgically removing the thrombosis. Although it may mean the end of competitive dressage at a level the rest of her body should be capable of it is by no means the end of the road for her.
 
TarrSteps said:
Absolutely! And the more information people have, the more informed their decisions.

As an aside, I'm interested that you can say no to medicating and yes to acupuncture, since it is unequivocally understood to produce analgesia, whatever else it may or may not do. I understand the effects produced can be so extreme it's possible to do surgery using no other form of pain relief!
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Agree! I don't understand me either but in my head acupuncture is on the ok list and doesn't count as medicating. Perhaps because no substance is put into the horse and the analgesia is produced by the horse?
 
TarrSteps said:
Absolutely! And the more information people have, the more informed their decisions.

As an aside, I'm interested that you can say no to medicating and yes to acupuncture, since it is unequivocally understood to produce analgesia, whatever else it may or may not do. I understand the effects produced can be so extreme it's possible to do surgery using no other form of pain relief!
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I find the whole area of ethics around pain relief for horses and other animals really interesting as I am myself currently on very high doses of opioid pain relief and on Sunday I had long lasting anaesthetic and corticosteroid injections into damaged nerves around my ribs. I want to ride and live a more normal life so I see no issue with taking high levels of pain relief to do so. I used to have very frequent and chronic chest infections or bouts of pneumonia but with sufficient analgesia I am able to exercise more, strengthen my lungs and therefore reduce dramatically the level of infections. The assumption is that pain relief is purely masking symptoms and is allowing further damage to occur but this is not always the case. Pain relief in many cases of stiffness or arthritis can enable people to be more active and stay supple for longer.

I would be happy to retire a horse from competition because it is unsound without the help of pain relief but if a horse is still able to hack whilst unsound why would you not give pain relief to enable him to hack comfortably and without pain. I'd prefer a horse to be medicated and comfortable in a lower level of work or pottering around a field. But as I have spent many years in considerable pain I would rather give pain relief than see an unsound horse out hacking or retired lame in a field.
 
The above poster knows much more about the subject than me, but my recent experience with my dog has been illuminating. Pre and post surgery we have had a very detailed and controlled approach to analgesia. When she had a complication the meds went up again, with the express purpose of keeping her 'working' correctly and to lessen the chance of ending up in a chronic pain loop. The ultimate goal is to have her drug free but there are good medical reasons for not hastening that process. I've known people who have received similar 'management'. But this does not seem to be something people will even entertain for horses now, although it used to be a more common approach at a time when it was probably less common for people!

Despite the fact that I'm engaging in the discussion, I do think this is not, at heart, a conversation about vet work. In fact I suspect all the things we can do now only adds to the issue because it's tempting to go there first and try to 'fix' an 'underperforming' (i love that phrase - covers a multitude of sins!) horse rather than just accept it is what it is and the 'under' is quite often only down to our perception of the situation.
 
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IMO joint injections are a very grey area. If you have a horse that is working within its physical and mental capabilities and it injures itself then I am all for them. If they are used as a measure to allow a horse to compete beyond its capabilities without the correct after care and consideration for the horses current abilities then I feel they are being used unethically.

For me medicating joints to get/keep horses sound to carry on competing is not comparable to using a "therapy" to relieve muscular tensions, which is basically what I understand acupuncture to be. I am a big fan of acupuncture and recommend it to all. As we are all aware there are few riders at any level are completely "straight" riders and many competition horses do not get the freedom to have a loosen up and a good roll (known to help return a horse to anatomical correctness after work and a good way to tell if your horse is "uneven") in the field, this has to have a knock on effect on the horse and its way of going. If you have muscle misalignment/tension then to have this released and improved upon will only ever help the way the horse goes.

I do agree that some horses will never return to what they were before a significant injury but I also know that there are instances when people do not put enough effort into making sure the horse is working correctly and are not listening to the horse when it is displaying signs of discomfort and dealing with them before the horse has to start screaming to get his point across. I have had the pleasure of working with some lovely older competition horses that are teaching younger/less experienced riders their trade and they are generally a pleasure to work with. They know their job and seem to take on a level of responsibility for their new riders which they would never have given a more capable rider.

When I was SJ grooming was I medicating the horse by using cooling/arnica gels and bandaging? For me this is just sensible management of horses that are having huge demands placed on them or should they be able to do all that they do with no help what so ever?

I was talking to a friend yesterday about her horse who is getting on and not 100% sound but perfectly sound enough for what she wants to do with him, I pointed out there are days when I take a nurofen because I hurt so why should it be any different for a horse. Just because some days I am just past the "stiff" point does not mean I cant go to work and be productive and I think its the same for a horse. If I need painkillers on a daily basis just to perform simple tasks then I go to my acupuncturist/physio and get myself sorted out.
 
I am in the very lucky position of having an ex eventer on loan to hunt. He is 20 and he is not entirely sound behind so is on a danilon a day which keeps him happy. I do not trot him on the road, only on grass and also tend to only go in straight lines.

I am careful out hunting with him - I pick and choose if and where we jump. I know he struggles to jump out of wet ground so we go through the gate. He jumps fantastically on good ground but I only jump him if we have to. He does half days or longer quieter days. He does a fair bit of hilltopping and watching from a distance if the field go on a jolly which we don't need to do. I know how much he loves hunting and how happy he is. He came to me looking old and rubbish. He now looks like a proper, fit hunter with a sparkle in his eye and a very bouncy bottom.

He has 2 days off after hunting, a walk to the village on Tues, Weds & Thurs walking and cantering for an hour on good ground, Fri a walk to the village and then goes hunting on Sat. This works for him. All my other horses have had a totally different regime because they could trot on the road and life was far easier keeping them fit.

He is not sound enough to do an event but he loves going hunting and, so far, he feels bright and springy after a day's hunting so we will carry on with his one danilon a day. The day he stops feeling good and stops leaping about out hunting is the day he stops going.
 
This is quite timely for me as I have been this pondering question for a while, well since my boy got kicked and fractured his knee. The injury shouldn’t be ridden or career ending but I know that he has lost some flexion in his knee, how much I won’t know until it’s fully healed and he is sound and back in work.
I have no intentions of parting with him unless he can no longer do the job or level I want, heartless maybe but I have no intention of pushing him to the point he might break or throw the towel in just because I want to jump bigger fences than he is physically is able. It’s simply not fair making a job be enjoys harder just so I can fulfil my ambitions.
The vet has already warned that he may struggle over bigger fences, whether that is 1m or 1.20m who knows but I don’t think (I hope) it will be the end of the road for him at all. There is no reason why someone else can’t manage him as well or even better than me and he can live the life doing things he enjoys. I'm not a happy hacker, I like to compete and like to push my limits but not at the expense of my horses happiness and soundness. If it means finding him a home pootling round small stuff or hacking or just doing something that doesn’t hurt him, then I'm fine with that. As I don’t have my own land then it will mean selling but again I'm happy with that as it will be the best for him. Of course it’s a crying shame as he has loads of talent but quite honestly he won’t care as long as he still gets to stand about eating all day in a field if he only hacks of the rest of his life, only I'm aware of my ambitions.
I think the difficult bit will be finding the right home if it comes to it, as said above its finding someone who understands that horses limits and to be trusted not to abuse them.
I have, unfortunately, seen a few people who simply won’t accept that their horse has a limit, some have taken a while to come round but it normally comes after a very low patch where the horse is on the verge of chucking it in. Once they realised that the horse couldn’t do the level they wanted things improved and the horse went back to winning at a lower level.
 
I suppose the rider thinks if the horse is fine jumping courses of that height at home it should be ok at shows? But that things are different at a competition whether that be complexity of the courses, physical tension due to the environment, mental confidence of the horse, different riding by the rider?
 
It depends if it's a limitation due to conformation/breeding (eg. a cob won't be competitive at high level SJ) or due to an injury.

Our oldie has limiting conformation (slightly roach back, straight hocks) so would never have been competitive above 90cm and novice dressage, but we wanted him as a school master, and he taught my sister who could just about walk/trot/canter to ride well at novice and 90cm. So it depends on the situation. If I wanted a happy hacker I would overlook some conformational faults that would be a no-no in a competition horse.

I think in the future if I buy again, I would get something that physically can compete at higher levels, so it is only my ability (or lack of) that will hold it back. But this is coming from someone who has had a few horses with issues, and so perhaps overly paranoid.
 
I think it is a very hard call to make even when you know that ultimately there's not really any choice.

Al is currently on a WP placement, and had to make the decision to take Smokey, leaving Reg behind at home. Because while he's her top horse, he's not one who'd cope with the life of a competition horse at any top yard, even in the 'off' months. His limitations are known and worked around carefully at home and his entire lifestyle is based around keeping him at his best- he has his hocks medicated, and is on Vetrofen when he competes (sound without both though). It also means that, while he makes mincemeat of BE100 XC tracks and can produce sub-30 dressage at that level he most likely will not be stepping up to more than that and realistically he won't be competing into old age (he's 14 next year and most likely will retire to more gentle pursuits by the time he's 15 or 16).

It's a balancing act, and quite a hard one to maintain and make good decisions about. It would have been so easy for Al to take Reg, but it was never on the table. She goes home on her day off for a cuddle and potter around the block on him, and he genuinely loves being my mum's happy hack, and this summer he was in his element nannying the babies out XC schooling. I think there's a lot of pressure on people to keep progressing, and if you don't have the money or space to find a horse who can do that the pressure is on to make the most of what you do have.
 
I am interested that this has become almost entirely a medical ethics conversation (hunter excepted). This rather confirms in my mind that for many owners this is a 'fixable or not' consideration, where in the only real issue is what is medically possible and how far you should go with it. I just don't think of horses as 'fixed' or 'broken' in those terms, nor do I think every 'limitation' bespeaks a problem that needs aggressive intervention.

Maybe the follow on question is where do you decide where the line is, when to push and when to hold? In the Noble Springbok and Gb's ex-horse examples, the people involved are very experienced and so more likely to trust their feel. But for the average owner, when is it 'okay' to say this is as far as we go? (This probably also links in with Daytona's recent posts about moving a technically more talented but unsuitable horse on and then immediately getting a lot more done right out of the box with a more suitable horse. . .)
 
Seems to me that there are a few different questions being asked here and the waters are rather muddied. There is a big difference between a) a younger horse making mistakes and simply not having the talent or scope to move up to the next level and do well, and b) a horse with an injury being pushed to do something it is physically incapable of doing because it hurts. Equally, both of these are very different to the older horse with stiff joints who has maybe thrown the towel in and needs a quieter life, retiring to the hunting field or whatever.

With regards to medication. I don't know that I like the idea of competition horses having Danilon to continue competing, however IME you actually quite a bit to make a lame horse appear sound! And there is a world of difference between giving an older slightly stiff/ arthritic horse a Danilon a day to ease said stiffness, and giving an injured horse a load of bute to make him look sound. On the subject of Adequan, it is basically just an injectable joint supplement - are joint supplements banned for competition? It might ease stiffness a bit but again, it won't make a lame horse sound. We ask a lot of our horses and competition can be hard on the joints. If you are happy to feed a joint supplement then what's the difference between that an Adequan? A course of Adequan isn't going to suddenly make a horse that is struggling over 90cm go around Badminton.
 
Heres another one...

I have photos of my old horse jumping over a 70cm jump at about 120cm. He wasn't overjumping, he was jumping cleanly and smoothly, and due to his height (17hh) it was literally him folding his legs up.

Put a 120cm fence up for him loose jumping, or ridden jumping, and he wouldn't go over it, at all, even though I have the proof to show he could jump that height!
 
My assumption regarding limitations was lack of talent, firstly, and ageing secondly. I think a lack of scope/talent is a different story to something like an injury - it needs different managing and different considerations. Like I said my last horse was an absolute schoolmaster, but struggled to jump higher than 3'3" - he was a flashy looking blood bay TB x WB with four white socks and a blaze, could extend like you wouldn't believe, but would never have competed over fences higher than 85 without struggling and starting to run out, and wouldn't have done dressage above Elem. He was still foot perfect within his limitations, no lameness or anything, just not a talented horse, but had such a good nature and was such a gentleman to ride that he made an excellent confidence giver.

With regards to 'should we medicate our horses to compete', that is a different story. I don't believe we should medicate any horse to compete - medicate to keep going at home, hacking, schooling etc if the horse is fine with paint belief, then ok. But I don't believe anyone should be competing on medication - competing isn't necessary, and it goes against the spirit of every clean sport rule we have.
 
I bought my boy from an event yard and I was told he wasnt brave, fast or bold enough to progress with their rider but would be perfect for me only wanting to do 80 / 90 work. We found out after a few months it want bravery or boildness but physical limitations that prevetned him progressing.
He has had a lot of treatment is now slowly slowly coming back into work. However I wont be able to jump him at 80cm but he loves it so much I will try to do something with him - however I feel I need a big sign on my back saying. "Yes, I know he 17hh and I am jumping a 60cm course,
Yes, I know he used to jump 1m 20, Yes I know he only 8, but this is all he can do!"
 
wench said:
Heres another one...

I have photos of my old horse jumping over a 70cm jump at about 120cm. He wasn't overjumping, he was jumping cleanly and smoothly, and due to his height (17hh) it was literally him folding his legs up.

Put a 120cm fence up for him loose jumping, or ridden jumping, and he wouldn't go over it, at all, even though I have the proof to show he could jump that height!
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That would be a 'how' question for me. If an established horse was consistently giving fences 50cm I would be concerned. There have been a few horses that jumped up to a very high level like this but they are notably unusual and rarely last. If it happened intermittently I'd want to know when and why. It might be something, it might be nothing. It would also fall into the category of 'one fence does not a course make'. Every horse can jump a few bigger fences once and awhile, it doesn't mean they can make a career of it.

And all of this is completely ignoring the mental components. As oldvic said, the right ride and production can encourage a horse to be confident even while operating on the very margins of its natural ability. Whereas other horses hit the back bar once too often and decide it's not a game they want to play anymore.
 
I think people need to listen to what the horse is telling them.
My now 24yo competed to Inter I & worked at GP level. Had a foal at 17yo and came back into work/competition after weaning.
At 19yo my gut feeling was that she was not enjoying it any more. I set aside two weeks of holiday to work her properly as though going out to compete at top level. At the end of the first week I made the decision to retire her from competition. She never refused to do anything, and everything was done with her usual competence. I could just feel she was not enjoying it any more. She had a year teaching a friend the ropes before having another couple of foals.
Despite a life threatening tendon injury at 22yo she came sound and is currently Queen of the field. I ride her lightly and she is currently 'earning her keep' ponying her daughter who is on rehab from an injury. She owes me nothing and when her face does not light up at the sight of her tack, i will retire her to pasture ornament.
 
TarrSteps said:
Maybe the follow on question is where do you decide where the line is, when to push and when to hold? In the Noble Springbok and Gb's ex-horse examples, the people involved are very experienced and so more likely to trust their feel. But for the average owner, when is it 'okay' to say this is as far as we go? (This probably also links in with Daytona's recent posts about moving a technically more talented but unsuitable horse on and then immediately getting a lot more done right out of the box with a more suitable horse. . .)
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Just because people are very experienced does not mean they will necessarily do the right thing for the horse. I have lost count of the times I have witnessed horses being abused for not "doing their job", when they are obviously lame or mentally not ready, by professional riders. For me the question of when to quit/move down a level/move on to a new horse/medicate comes down to how it sits in the decision makers gut. Some people will push their horses to an early grave and some will accept what they have and work within the limitations they have been set.
 
Allover said:
Just because people are very experienced does not mean they will necessarily do the right thing for the horse. I have lost count of the times I have witnessed horses being abused for not "doing their job", when they are obviously lame or mentally not ready, by professional riders. For me the question of when to quit/move down a level/move on to a new horse/medicate comes down to how it sits in the decision makers gut. Some people will push their horses to an early grave and some will accept what they have and work within the limitations they have been set.
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My friend has a now 5 year old whom she is having great fun doing low level dressage with and son is starting to jump. Every instructor we have comments on how nice a horse he is - got 65% on his first test despite never having been to a comp before ever!

Pro rider, who did Juniors/Young Riders and events her own string (and has a reputation for breaking and producing young sock) was hired when my friend first got him as a four year old. He was a bit unsure, had been pushed a bit hard. Pro decided he needed schooling, was trying to get him going in an outline and teaching lateral work. His behaviour got slowly worse, bucking pro off several times, and resulting in him getting so bad to mount that he threw my friend's son off backwards by rearing when mounting.

After me begging her to get rid of the pro, and us hacking him out all winter followed by quiet riding club training, lessons in indoors, trying things like endurance/pony club/riding club camp, he has become amazing and totally settle dingo himself.

For me, a classic example of a pro who might be a great competition rider, but can;t deal with a horse with limitations. His were mental - he just needed time. But it wasn't respected, and could have ended up bad news!!!
 
Regarding younger horses, I had to accept that my pony has limitations, in his case predominantly mental, that meant changing disciplines. After my 3rd jumping-related fall from him, my insructor sat me down with a cup of coffee and told me to make a list of all the things he was good at---and to strike jumping permanently off the list of things to try with him! This particular instructor has a reputation for sometimes pushing students more than advisable, so I was inclined to listen to his advice. I did come back to it later and get to the point of jumping round a 60cm course, but I never felt very safe doing so. Since he seemed to enjoy the Pleasure Rides I did with him, I decided to turn competitive in Endurance, and he's taken to that like a duck to water. However, I know that he will have physical limitations in that discipline: he has an oddly-shaped physique that means regular physio appointments to be sure that he's not developing unusual tensions (no sign of such, so far), and I get the distinct feeling that while he will go like the clappers when his blood is up, he's really a Speed Category 2 horse over the longer distances (11--12.99 kph). I'd like to go to 80km with him, but am not at all sure that it would be fair to ask for anything longer. I just hope that when the time comes to limit the distance or the speed, I have the sense and sensitivity to listen to him.
 
Just adding to how the horse is used theme!
My last horse was a fantastic jumper, he never touched a pole in 3 years. If i had just done showjumping with him, he (i am reliably told!) would have probably made a 1.30 horse and possibly more, but was told its impossible to tell unless at 1.30. Instead i did eventing with him because that is what i wanted to do, but he was not as good at it. He was very slow xc but in pure sj he never lost a jump off - he was amazing, he was always the one to beat.

He is in a new home doing riding club where he is adored, is doing his job as a schoolmaster and taught the rider to jump, they are having a huge amount of fun with him and lives a life of luxury. I LOVE seeing him being looked after so well and them having so much fun together, I couldnt have dreamt of a better home for him.
He may have the ability to jump 1.30 but has a much better life being a schoolmaster at a lower level!
 
Allover said:
Just because people are very experienced does not mean they will necessarily do the right thing for the horse. I have lost count of the times I have witnessed horses being abused for not "doing their job", when they are obviously lame or mentally not ready, by professional riders. For me the question of when to quit/move down a level/move on to a new horse/medicate comes down to how it sits in the decision makers gut. Some people will push their horses to an early grave and some will accept what they have and work within the limitations they have been set.
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In both the examples I mentioned experience urged caution..;)

I have to say most of the GOOD pros I know do not push horses until they crack. For one thing, it's bad business - who wants to fail and look a fool? No point in that. They give the horse a few chances, maybe fiddle with the details but if the horse can't/won't they cut their losses. They also usually have a market for horses that don't quite make the grade so will be looking to get some return rather than spend time, effort and money unless the horse has already proven itself at quite a high level.

Don't get me wrong, I've seen some very questionable behaviour from pros, but then I would say the same of amateurs! I also don't think experience is only the province of amateurs. But, as they say, experience is what you get 5 min after you need it! It's usually gained in this kind of situation by getting it wrong in the past!
 
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only_me said:
Just adding to how the horse is used theme!
My last horse was a fantastic jumper, he never touched a pole in 3 years. If i had just done showjumping with him, he (i am reliably told!) would have probably made a 1.30 horse and possibly more, but was told its impossible to tell unless at 1.30. Instead i did eventing with him because that is what i wanted to do, but he was not as good at it. He was very slow xc but in pure sj he never lost a jump off - he was amazing, he was always the one to beat.

He is in a new home doing riding club where he is adored, is doing his job as a schoolmaster and taught the rider to jump, they are having a huge amount of fun with him and lives a life of luxury. I LOVE seeing him being looked after so well and them having so much fun together, I couldnt have dreamt of a better home for him.
He may have the ability to jump 1.30 but has a much better life being a schoolmaster at a lower level!
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I was a big fan of your old horse. Glad to hear he's doing well and making his people happy. Give him pat for me. :)
 
TarrSteps said:
In both the examples I mentioned experience urged caution..;)

I have to say most of the GOOD pros I know do not push horses until they crack. For one thing, it's bad business - who wants to fail and look a fool? No point in that. They give the horse a few chances, maybe fiddle with the details but if the horse can't/won't they cut their losses. They also usually have a market for horses that don't quite make the grade so will be looking to get some return rather than spend time, effort and money unless the horse has already proven itself at quite a high level.

Don't get me wrong, I've seen some very questionable behaviour from pros, but then I would say the same of amateurs! I also don't think experience is only the province of amateurs. But, as they say, experience is what you get 5 min after you need it! It's usually gained in this kind of situation by getting it wrong in the past!
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I suppose that could all come down to what one considers to be a good pro. If it is a trainer that is happy to take time to train the horse and manage the horse in accordance with its needs then no, you wont find the ones that push their horses till they crack. Others may see a good pro as one that has Olympic medals regardless of how they get there, behind these trainers/riders are a succession of ruined horses that were never really given the opportunity to be the best they could be. In these cases the biggest limitations the horse ever encountered were those presented by the trainer/rider/owner.
 
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