Piaffe Training

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Spandale

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Currently teaching my rescue horse Piaffe and Spanish Walk. He's doing really good with the Spanish Walk, absolutely loves it and picks his front feet up as soon as I ask. However with his back legs he picks them up but he kicks out instead of simply lifting it. I don't want to be teaching him to kick, all the other horses I have done this with would soon get over it and would stop getting so irritated but my guy just doesn't seem to get it. Any tips for stopping him from kicking out?
 
How are you asking for it?

My gut feeling is that you're asking him to do something, but that something is not piaffe. Piaffe is an advanced dressage movement, which requires a high level of collection, and the ability to "sit" - it takes years of training for a horse to be strong and educated enough to start learning piaffe.
 
Auslander said:
How are you asking for it?

My gut feeling is that you're asking him to do something, but that something is not piaffe. Piaffe is an advanced dressage movement, which requires a high level of collection, and the ability to "sit" - it takes years of training for a horse to be strong and educated enough to start learning piaffe.
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I'm only starting with the basics atm. I refuse to rush it. I'm only asking him to pick up a leg when it is tapped :)
 
Spandale said:
I'm only starting with the basics atm. I refuse to rush it. I'm only asking him to pick up a leg when it is tapped :)
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To be honest, I'd stop doing that. There's no benefit to teaching him to pick up a leg when you tap it (and it ain't piaffe!). Find something else to teach him that's going to be fun for him. As you suspected, you are just teaching him to kick at the moment!
 
Auslander said:
To be honest, I'd stop doing that. There's no benefit to teaching him to pick up a leg when you tap it (and it ain't piaffe!). Find something else to teach him that's going to be fun for him. As you suspected, you are just teaching him to kick at the moment!
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If you have a better way, feel free to share. I am very open minded but this is the way I've been taught. I've never heard of a different way?
I would type it out in more detail but my hand is in a cast so it is a tad difficult but basically it's done in steps over a long period of time:
1) Pick up each leg on command (pick a cue)
2) Pick up and hold each leg for a set period of time (also have to be picky about the horse bringing the leg under itself, not just lifting it up)
3) Pick up one leg, then alternate to the other
4) Eventually be able to comfortably alternate the legs by increasing the amount of steps.
5) Add a rider, ask for it from the ground and give the rider a cue. Gradually transfer the cue so that it can be done in the saddle.

All of these will be knit picked until it is refined, all of these will be gradual, only working on one thing per session and leaving it alone once it is achieved.

I would love to know your method :)
 
I'm not wuite sure what you're trying to teach the horse (and clearly neither is the horse!), but that isn't how you teach piaffe. Piaffe isn't a trick, it's a development of high collection built up over time as the horse learns to transfer weight to the hindlegs. When the trainer taps a horse on the croup or hocks it's to activate them more, not to cue their initial movement
 
Spandale said:
If you have a better way, feel free to share. I am very open minded but this is the way I've been taught. I've never heard of a different way?
I would type it out in more detail but my hand is in a cast so it is a tad difficult but basically it's done in steps over a long period of time:
1) Pick up each leg on command (pick a cue)
2) Pick up and hold each leg for a set period of time (also have to be picky about the horse bringing the leg under itself, not just lifting it up)
3) Pick up one leg, then alternate to the other
4) Eventually be able to comfortably alternate the legs by increasing the amount of steps.
5) Add a rider, ask for it from the ground and give the rider a cue. Gradually transfer the cue so that it can be done in the saddle.

All of these will be knit picked until it is refined, all of these will be gradual, only working on one thing per session and leaving it alone once it is achieved.

I would love to know your method :)
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I think it would be irresponsible of me to explain, I'm afraid. By all means, teach your horse to respond appropriately to you asking him to move his body, but teaching him piaffe at this stage would not be fair/right. It's a Grand Prix dressage movement for a reason - horses are not physically able to perform the movement until they are at an advanced stage of training. It's actually a very easy movement to train, once the horse is established at Advanced level, and understands collection.
My horse has established piaffe and passage, but he wouldn't oblige if I did what you are describing - he'd probably kick too!
 
In my various explorations of YouTube I have seen the piaffe taught the way the OP describes a few times, rightly or wrongly I have no idea - I’ve never ridden or taught any advances dressage movements!! Balanced walk trot and canter is a challenge lol But thought people might be interested seeing the method in action as a discussion point?

[video=youtube_share;9Rri-2NqcB4]https://youtu.be/9Rri-2NqcB4[/video]
 
Auslander said:
To be honest, I'd stop doing that. There's no benefit to teaching him to pick up a leg when you tap it (and it ain't piaffe!). Find something else to teach him that's going to be fun for him. As you suspected, you are just teaching him to kick at the moment!
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I have been to a lot of the Spanish riding school trainers clinics and they often teach the horses to lift a leg from a touch of an in hand whip to start piaffe training (granted this is on horses that are ready to sit and collect and are at the stage ready to work on piaffe) but they teach the cue of lifting from that touch on the hind leg or croup area. They usually start by kicking out until they learn what the aid means. Tails are tied up ready for that reason.
 
Farma said:
I have been to a lot of the Spanish riding school trainers clinics and they often teach the horses to lift a leg from a touch of an in hand whip to start piaffe training (granted this is on horses that are ready to sit and collect and are at the stage ready to work on piaffe) but they teach the cue of lifting from that touch on the hind leg or croup area. They usually start by kicking out until they learn what the aid means. Tails are tied up ready for that reason.
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I can see the reasoning behind it, although it wouldn't be my preferred method. That in no way means that it's wrong - I'm not so smug that I think it's my way or nothing. In my little brain, the piaffe and passage are simply products of a horses ability to collect, and to transition in and out of varying degrees of collection comfortably - and I prefer training it from the saddle, so that I can ride in and out of the very collected steps, so as not to accidentally "ground tie" the horse.

It's not so much the method that's bothering me here - but that the horse in question is a young rescue horse, who isn't working at a level where it is appropriate to teach piaffe. Had the OP asked "How can I teach my horse cues to lift his legs on command", I'd have been more comfortable with the topic.
 
It all rather depends on the horse, and their ability to sit and natural knack for the movement. I have Spanish horses which have been bred for centuries to sit and carry, and which also have elevated, mobile action. My young horses will piaffe in hand if they are excited, and it is not unusual to see unbroken horses being trained to piaffe (often in pillars) before they are sat on in Spain, and yes, their legs are tapped to encourage the movement. "Pure" dressage riders tend to be horrified, but I have to say, having done both GP dressage and Spanish Alta Escuela, the end results are indistinguishable. Actually I lie: the Spanish piaffes are better, and practically every horse in Spain can piaffe, goodo.
 
Cortez said:
It all rather depends on the horse, and their ability to sit and natural knack for the movement. I have Spanish horses which have been bred for centuries to sit and carry, and which also have elevated, mobile action. My young horses will piaffe in hand if they are excited, and it is not unusual to see unbroken horses being trained to piaffe (often in pillars) before they are sat on in Spain, and yes, their legs are tapped to encourage the movement. "Pure" dressage riders tend to be horrified, but I have to say, having done both GP dressage and Spanish Alta Escuela, the end results are indistinguishable. Actually I lie: the Spanish piaffes are better, and practically every horse in Spain can piaffe, goodo.
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Tis true that some are designed that way! A friend of mine has a young spanish stallion, who is starting to play with half steps - he has been under saddle for 9months. He is very much born that way!
 
It's true he's a rescue but he's also a horse? I'm a little confused as to how him being a rescue devalues his ability to collect? I am not teaching him piaffe just yet either, only starting with the basic leg lifting, a horse of any age or background is capable of that :)
 
That's exactly what I've been doing Farma, usually they get over it but mine is taking a tad longer than usual. I simply wanted to know how I could perhaps make it clearer to him what I'm asking :)
 
Spandale said:
It's true he's a rescue but he's also a horse? I'm a little confused as to how him being a rescue devalues his ability to collect? I am not teaching him piaffe just yet either, only starting with the basic leg lifting, a horse of any age or background is capable of that :)
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I think your thread title is a bit misleading!

I was referring to the fact that he was a rescue, because that means that he hasn't had the best start, and won't have been produced from a young age with an eye to correct development/growth. He's very sweet, but he isn't a dressage bred 6yr old, with inbuilt ability to collect, so it's going to be more difficult for him to carry out advanced dressage movements. That's not to say that he couldn't a few years down the line, if he is now being correctly produced, but as he is in the pics you've put up of him, he's not ready yet. Have fun hacking about, doing a bit of groundwork, and gentle basic schooling at the moment - save the twiddly stuff for later on
 
Auslander said:
I think your thread title is a bit misleading!

I was referring to the fact that he was a rescue, because that means that he hasn't had the best start, and won't have been produced from a young age with an eye to correct development/growth. He's very sweet, but he isn't a dressage bred 6yr old, with inbuilt ability to collect, so it's going to be more difficult for him to carry out advanced dressage movements. That's not to say that he couldn't a few years down the line, if he is now being correctly produced, but as he is in the pics you've put up of him, he's not ready yet. Have fun hacking about, doing a bit of groundwork, and gentle basic schooling at the moment - save the twiddly stuff for later on
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This is the best bit of advice. I spent 5 years doing the basics with mine as he has had many medical problems, now he is strong enough to take this sort of work and loves it. But only because he is so grounded in the basics and is strong.
 
Spandale said:
That's exactly what I've been doing Farma, usually they get over it but mine is taking a tad longer than usual. I simply wanted to know how I could perhaps make it clearer to him what I'm asking :)
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I have a horse that doesn't understand leg tapping in any kind of context. When he was younger I had to teach him to pick his feet up basically just by manhandling his legs into position, because any kind of tap or touch he'd either kick out at or shoot away from and would get quite stressed about it. Some just don't have a brain set up that way.

Now he's older I can tap him lightly on the croup to encourage a bit more engagement as he learns to collect his trot, but leg tapping would still stress him out so I wouldn't do it - if you're getting a stress response to a training method then their ability to learn from the experience is considerably diminished ime, so best to find another way to ask the question and/or park it for the time being.
 
DabDab said:
I have a horse that doesn't understand leg tapping in any kind of context. When he was younger I had to teach him to pick his feet up basically just by manhandling his legs into position, because any kind of tap or touch he'd either kick out at or shoot away from and would get quite stressed about it. Some just don't have a brain set up that way.

Now he's older I can tap him lightly on the croup to encourage a bit more engagement as he learns to collect his trot, but leg tapping would still stress him out so I wouldn't do it - if you're getting a stress response to a training method then their ability to learn from the experience is considerably diminished ime, so best to find another way to ask the question and/or park it for the time being.
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This is a very good point ^^^ Not every method works with every horse. I had one horse who would freak out if you started tapping her legs (had her from a foal; not abused, just a bit thick), she learned piaffe too eventually, but the "modern" way.
 
DabDab said:
Now he's older I can tap him lightly on the croup to encourage a bit more engagement as he learns to collect his trot, but leg tapping would still stress him out so I wouldn't do it - if you're getting a stress response to a training method then their ability to learn from the experience is considerably diminished ime, so best to find another way to ask the question and/or park it for the time being.
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Kira is the same. She has a natural aptitude for piaffe, sitting is quite a natural thing for her and she's fairly quick/active behind. But if you tap her legs she gets more and more anxious. We've done most of her half steps work from the saddle, I do the contact and straightness bits, and trainer taps her on her bum/hip to help with the rhythm and engagement. The bonus of that is that I can give a very very similar tap from the saddle myself in between lessons.
 
I will say I'm a little confused as to how well the leg tapping transfers to bum tapping being the cue? Anyone care to enlighten?!
 
um, ester I guess it's like anything that you teach in a way that helps the horse understand the question, and then develop it in a different way?
Not an expert... but I think part of the lesson they have to learn is to (a) pick up the foot quickly, and (b) put it down without covering a lot of ground or getting keen in the hand. So tapping the leg could - for some - be different enough to your normal engagement/forward impulse leg aids to teach that new thing as it's directed to the bit you are trying to influence. I would guess you could then, with help on the ground, develop that with a rider doing their bit at the same time when the horse now understands the exercise so doesn't just interpret any other aid as "go faster or bigger"

There are other things that are sometimes taught in a roundabout way, people often start moving their horses about on the ground before starting leg yield, for instance.
It was not a helpful way with Kira, who has made better progress with the bum/hip tap, and Millie never cottoned on to leg taps either :D so this is all conjecture :D
 
Lol re. conjecture.
I think I probably understand it less as the in hand work with F came later so for the most part I was fairly close to ridden cues.
 
ester said:
I will say I'm a little confused as to how well the leg tapping transfers to bum tapping being the cue? Anyone care to enlighten?!
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Hi, it works because you are asking for two different things at different stages, as a rough guide: If you start off the concept of piaffe in hand as the OP was talking about, you begin by asking the horse to lift a leg in response to a tap on the relevant leg, this starts to give the horse the idea of picking up their legs without charging off etc.
If you begin teaching piaffe under saddle (or by the time the horse who has been started in hand gets to the under saddle stage) then you asking the horse to keep activity and increase engagement, and this is what the bum tap does.
 
When you say hes kicking, which way is he kicking? Back or out? The video showed any out movement almost being blocked by the whip, and it was on the side of the leg.

I taught my pony sized HW cob to do a spanish walk. I did it through clicker training which I find works so well for stuff like that. Are you 100% sure that your cues and rewards are quick enough and correct? Most horses will get it once they work out what you want them to do
 
Leo Walker said:
When you say hes kicking, which way is he kicking? Back or out? The video showed any out movement almost being blocked by the whip, and it was on the side of the leg.

I taught my pony sized HW cob to do a spanish walk. I did it through clicker training which I find works so well for stuff like that. Are you 100% sure that your cues and rewards are quick enough and correct? Most horses will get it once they work out what you want them to do
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Mostly back, not to the side. He seems to think the whip is a fly and tries to shake it off. He's not getting aggressive or very annoyed at all, he's just a little confused. I definitely release all pressure as soon as he picks it up. I'm also teaching him to Spanish walk which he is picking up well, he loves it.
 
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