pics of Ellen Whitaker riding at home, in H&H this week...

I noticed this too, was going to post earlier, but then read the ariticle and got worried I may be slated as the article was very much saying how much hardship Ellen has gone through, so didn't really want to add to it! Completly hate the way she is riding, especially Locarno, she has no cantact on the snaffle rein what so ever!. Pretty bad example of riding IMO. Why would you ride like that on a magazine shoot?????????? I'm perfectly aware many pros in all disciplines ride like this behind closed doors, but to do it so publically is pretty appaling, and sends out completly the wrong message to up and coming riders.
 
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Me too. The only reason I dont like her is she can be such a stroppy cow if she doesn't do well. You see her grinding the horse to a halt and yanking on its mouth with a face like thunder if she has a pole down. That to me is not a good role model. She is clearly just the youngest and prettiest (?) of British show jumpers currently on the circuit...

Can't comment on the draw reins, haven't seen the pics!

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Not saying its right to show temper to a horse, but I'd far rather someone behave like that than the many who are all sweetness and light in front of the camera and are incredibly cruel where they can't be witnessed.
 
Loving the current stream of debates on HHO atm....

Draw reins - I guess used correctly could be okay (I have zero experience of them!) but you hear so much ill use of them - normally to break horses spirts - that in a PR stunt it would have been good to either steer clear or maybe explain how to use them to the good? Maybe a feature idea? It would be good as I think they can be dangerous in the wrong hands.

Ellen has done amazing well in her career - but I cant help thinking id rather have a poster girl who did it themselves in a way... i know this is going to ruffle feathers but hey ho there goes! Like Mary King - started off riding the priests pony and then made it the absolute top - thats really inspiring. Where as Ellen started of pre picked ponies and everything was set in place for her and it was never in doubt that she would be a showjumper.
 
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Im not saying this about her in particular, but if people show their temper on camera surely what does that say about them at home?

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Not sure it says anything very much really.

I'm less worried about someone who gives a horse a wallop [or 2 or 3] because its had a stop and they've gotten angry - its the people who use cruel nasty methods in absolutely cold blood that are far more worrying IMO.

FWIW, I don't think Ellen is a saint, I think she's a bit of a stroppy madam and I think she's a bit spoilt - but I've never heard anything about her being cruel to her horses. re. the draw reins, perhaps its not ideal but I just think its such a petty thing to criticise. So long as the horse's health isn't being compromised, I really don't think it matters.
 
nothing to do with Ellen Whitaker... and i have no issue with draw reins.

but i don't like draw reins being significantly tighter than normal reins- that imho is not correct use of the draw rein whoever is in the saddle
 
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Kerilli - I have lessons with a very well respected dressage rider. I had never used draw reins before and it was his suggestion I started to use them. He has also said to have the draw reins tighter and the snaffle rein lighter in certain circumstances, based on the fact the snaffle rein can be harsher.

Any gadget, bit, spurs, whip can be as harsh or as mild as the rider makes them.

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i don't even know where to start replying to that.
yes, i agree with the last statement.
as for the rest, i am actually speechless.
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Ems207 - agree entirely. Mary seems to treat her horses as friends whereas to Ellen they are money making tools. I remember her getting eliminated on top of the bank at Hickstead and socking her horse in the teeth in a show of temper.........but hey she is a Whittaker so no warning for her I bet. Mary shows rreal emotion too and actually pats her horses enthusiastically whethere they do well or not, Ellen a brief pat....if they are lucky.
 
Kerilli - How can you be speechless when you don't know the reason behind using them in a different way? You don't know anything about the horse, it's training or what is trying to be achieved.

Horses are a subject we can all keep learning about, it is ignorant to make judgement without any understanding.
 
I can't really comment on the draw reins, as I've only ever used them a couple of times (years ago and under supervision), so I don't know enough to have an opinion.

I do have to confess to not noticing the draw reins first time round; my eyes were obviously looking elsewhere!
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nothing to do with Ellen Whitaker... and i have no issue with draw reins.

but i don't like draw reins being significantly tighter than normal reins- that imho is not correct use of the draw rein whoever is in the saddle

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exactly, millitiger, thank you, that is exactly what i meant.
i hope to God that by starting this thread i haven't made anyone think that i think i'm better than EW, i know i'm not by a very very long way, i'd wet myself if i had to try to jump a track bigger than 4' for starters!
i just do NOT like seeing a pic of ANYONE riding using draw reins like that... especially someone who thousands of kids will imitiate...
 
Ditchjumper2 i completely agree - i saw that too and then a few seconds later the horse got a boot in the ribs with the spurs! Lovely example she set there to the thousands of tv viewers.
 
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Oh for god's sake! Sorry but come on people. So bloody what if her horses are in draw reins, she's not a dressage rider, her horses are healthy and successful, surely there are lots more things out there for you to worry about. I think that many, many competition horses are hacked out in draw reins for safety reasons. I'd rather see a horse ridden well in draw reins than hollow, inverted and above the bit. Shoot me down. Sorry. Don't be so bloody judgmental. Sorry rant over.

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couldnt bloody agree more HalfStep!! WELL SAID
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For obvious reasons I haven't seen the pictures (Psst location) but anyone else wonder how long it'll be before draw reins start becoming the new 'trend' with the younger showjumpers??
 
baaaaaaaaa from me too.

I've worked on a few different international SJing yards and ridden some top level horses - in draw reins 99% of the time
 
I must admit i totally agree Halfstep - very well said. I was going to post how nice it is to see Locarno back in action (i haven't had a chance to read the article yet) but i really hope he will get back to the form he had before he was injured. IMHO Ellen has worked really hard this year with her best horse off work and done fantastically to remain as high up the rankings etc as she has.
 
In case it gets missed, I just want to reiterate that I simply do not like seeing a photo of ANY rider using draw reins IN THAT WAY, and would have said so no matter who the rider was. I didn't say anything bitchy about her, fwiw!
 
Just because majority of international sjing yards do it does not make it right.

Although draw reins are usually a short cut to proper schooling, and time is usually something top sj yards do not have due to financial pressures and even pressures from owners, so I totally understand why.

I also agree totally with millitiger.

Whether you are for or against ellen ( and I am usually for ) however you look at it publicity wise it was not the most sensible thing to do!
 
I havent seen the pic's so i can't comment on them.
But i really dont like Draw reins, they have no use whatsoever in my mind for schooling horses this is of course my opinion.
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So i would be very dissapointed to see this Pic's as said loads of people will be influenced by seeing them used by a top SJ, Draw reins are a bandage on a wound.

Why does not being a dressage rider seem to advocate there use to some?? Im not being argumental im actually interested.
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Getting your horse working properly without draw reins says so much more about your riding imo again of course
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Im also saddened to hear the use of Draw reins being advocated by a Pro dressage rider
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. It's never ever been mentioned to me by any pro's to use draw reins but i no i wouldnt train with them again if they where suggested. We all have our bug bare's.
 
Lets be honest, draw reins have become a show jumping fashion... for reasons such as that photo shoot.
I don't use them but can see why people maybe would for hacking seriously tricky/dangerous horses.
I once heard someone say putting a horse in draw reins to ''make it supple'' is like putting a pully system on your grandma and pulling them tighter and tighter until eventually she is touching her toes... If i asked half the people i know who use draw reins why they use them i bet most of them wouldn't even be able to come up with an answer (worringly some of them are young Ellen wannabes).
To say it is because they are in a rounder outline and they are therefore working better across their back .. what a load of rubbish! A horse that is comfortable and well schooled wouldn't naturally go in an inverted hollow outline-maybe people should sort the problems (or not create them) before masking them with draw reins. This isn't aimed to insult anyone on here it is just what i see so often- having a horses head tucked in appears to be an obsession amongst many riders young and old and articles with photos such as these don't help riders (or their horses).
 
Kerilli - just wanted to add i didn't mean that to sound like i thought you were being bitchy! Just what i was thinking (i probably shouldn't think to much, it only leads to trouble
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nothing to do with Ellen Whitaker... and i have no issue with draw reins.

but i don't like draw reins being significantly tighter than normal reins- that imho is not correct use of the draw rein whoever is in the saddle

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My thoughts exactly!!
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she obviously has no issue with using them or people seeing her using them or she wouldn't have kept them on for the photoshoot would she, especially when she knows alot of people will be seeing the photos.
 
Its interesting that alot people think since its used by so many SJ yards then its okay to use draw reins.....
Rokullur (sorry I cant spell!) is used by some dressage yards to gain success too and does that make it okay to use such techniques?

There was a day when SJ yards used to use techniques such as spikes on poles to make horses jump tidy.... so is that seen in the same light as the standard use of draw reins now-a-days? its acceptable as it breeds sucess?
 
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Kerilli - How can you be speechless when you don't know the reason behind using them in a different way? You don't know anything about the horse, it's training or what is trying to be achieved.

Horses are a subject we can all keep learning about, it is ignorant to make judgement without any understanding.

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thanks for that.
first of all, i didn't make a judgement, i deliberately held my tongue. no, i know nothing about the horse, but most of us are attempting to achieve the same things with our horses - rhythm, acceptance of the aids, balance, engagement, softness/permeability (durchlassigkeit), connection, straightness, and so on - not necessarily in that exact order, obviously.
If i'm way wide of the mark then I apologise. Obviously I have no idea what you were trying to accomplish with your horse. I took the fact that you went to a "well respected dressage rider" as a big clue.

you said
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Kerilli - I have lessons with a very well respected dressage rider. I had never used draw reins before and it was his suggestion I started to use them. He has also said to have the draw reins tighter and the snaffle rein lighter in certain circumstances, based on the fact the snaffle rein can be harsher.

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Well, call me a purist, but the draw rein really should not be tighter than the snaffle rein - if it is, it is pulling the horse's head and neck into place, which is far from ideal. this downward winching pressure is easily stronger than the snaffle rein imho. it is a pulley system, instead of a direct connection hand to mouth.
used correctly, the draw rein only comes into action if/when the horse raises his head too much, as an evasion.
Expert riders rarely need to use such gadgets, and use them judiciously and only temporarily to correct a fault, in my experience. I've been around some very very good riders and trainers and have never ever seen them use draw reins... nor have they suggested I use them either, even when things weren't going brilliantly! maybe they thought i wasn't expert enough to use them - fair enough.
the old saying about draw reins being "the razor in the monkey's fist" can be very true.

dressage_crazy, thank god for that, i thought i was alone in this!

bu_apple, the "using a pulley system so your grandma can touch her toes" analogy is mine, i wrote it on here a while back. i think it's the best way of explaining to someone just how much damage they CAN do if used incorrectly.
 
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Its interesting that alot people think since its used by so many SJ yards then its okay to use draw reins.....
Rokullur (sorry I cant spell!) is used by some dressage yards to gain success too and does that make it okay to use such techniques?

There was a day when SJ yards used to use techniques such as spikes on poles to make horses jump tidy.... so is that seen in the same light as the standard use of draw reins now-a-days? its acceptable as it breeds sucess?

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AGREE - What is the difference between a dressage horse forced to work with its chin on its chest a la rolkur or a SJ being forced into the same outline in draw reins????

I would bet that most of the top SJ still use rapping even if done by more subtle means. Are horses really so much more careful these days or is it that "the ways and means" of encouraging them to be so has increased????
 
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Its interesting that alot people think since its used by so many SJ yards then its okay to use draw reins.....
Rokullur (sorry I cant spell!) is used by some dressage yards to gain success too and does that make it okay to use such techniques?

There was a day when SJ yards used to use techniques such as spikes on poles to make horses jump tidy.... so is that seen in the same light as the standard use of draw reins now-a-days? its acceptable as it breeds sucess?

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I didn't say it was acceptable...it is however de rigeur and getting up arms won't change that. Success is the be all and end all on a professional yard, the horses are part of a business not pets. Sad, maybe, but true.
 
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Talavera, just because you haven't ridden at that level doesn't mean you can't comment...
it's a bit like the furore over the whole 'blue tongue' debacle... hardly any of those who are upset about what the video showed have ridden at that level, but that doesn't mean we can't see that certain things aren't right...

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This is so true I think and often those 'outside' can see more clearly... it's amazing what we get used to seeing and regard as normal without a thought. I know I've been guilty of that myself.

Mta... I hope it's OK to put this link up but it is very technical in parts but talks about the effects of hyperflexion on horses and actually states it is pointless as it has no training or suppling/strengthening effect, so it does beg the question of why it is used by any rider to me.
http://scienceofmotion.com/documents/hyper-flexion.html
 
Kerilli - I am very impressed you always manage to find an interesting topic which prompts loads of discussion!
 
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