Please help - advice needed

TheBlackMoth

TheBlackMoth

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Ok – looking for some advice here as we have some hard decisions to make. (Oh please remember non horsey mum here so I might get some of the terms wrong.)
Some of you know that last year I bought a five year old Belgian Warmblood for my daughter to move from ponies to horses. Vandelita is young with little experience but good breeding.
We bought her from a dealer that we have a connection with and trust. When we tried her and for the first few months she was great to ride and a good jumper. However, she was and is a nightmare on the ground. She is bargey and skittish. Wont stand still, wont tie up without trying to spin round. She wont go out in the field without a big song and dance and is kicking the proverbial out of her stable – has managed to make big holes in it so far. In the stable she will push you into a wall and try and sometimes kick out at you.
At first she was difficult with her feet and would kick out when you went near her. The girls have worked hard on this one and she will now let you pick up her feet. But at the slightest sign of stress she does kick out.
She clearly has huge potential and when she jumps she has a great jump. She is also very beautiful and my daughter has become very attached to her. However, she has got more and more difficult to jump and today for the first time refused and was eliminated twice. The reason she is refusing is she wants to go head first at full steam over the jumps but then she is uncontrollable on the other side of the jump.
The dealer has said he will look for something else and exchange her if we want. However, I think she has lost value with us and worry that if we don’t try and sort her out we will lose a lot of money.
To be honest I just don’t know what to do!
To summarise
Pros
She’s very beautiful
She has an amazing jump.
She has real potential.
She was (relatively) expensive.
We hate giving up.
Cons
She’s a bit of a nightmare horse and I am worried for the girls’ safety.
We might be ruining her.
She is now not jumping either.
She is terribly bad mannered and we haven’t been able to fix these things.

Any advice appreciated.

Here are some photographs to help.

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Few questions...

How much experience does your daughter have/did she have before you bought the mare? I appreciate she's young but I'm just thinking in terms of previous horses/ponies.

What sort of support do you have - experienced people on hand to help? Does your daughter have regular lessons?

I'd be tempted to get someone more experienced and confident on board. She's still only a young horse so how about sending her away for some schooling to see if you can work her through it all?
 
Have you had her back/teeth/tack checked? How about trying her on regumate (?) - the supplement that helps mares with hormonal problems? IME it's not usual for a horse to behave in this way without a reason, so it's worth exploring a few avenues first (if you haven't already)
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WOW she clears the jumps! She's very beautiful. If you're daughter doesn't feel she can get through it then sell her but if you both feel that you can persevere and get through it, do it, she would be worth the while and hard work!!
Im not very good advice really am I?! I couldn't sell as I get too attached LOL!
 
Well...for starters a horse that is beautiful isn't always the best option. You need something that fits the purpose so if it was a hairy cob but did the job it would be better (hope that makes sense!)

She is lovely and probably just needs a little more schooling to get her to listen. Have yo checked all her tack, back and teeth etc to check for any pain? This could be the reason as to why she is rushing her fences and now refusing.

She may also just be green and need someone who is a little more experienced to ride her and bring her on. Has your instructor tried riding her over a few fences?

I think you would be wise exchanging her as i think it sounds like your daughter is a little over-horsed.

Regading her value dropping, i coudn't say without seeing her but be aware that a dealer is there to make money and dealing horses is a business for him so be careful he doesnt try to flog you something more expensive as a way of getting more money out of you.

I would also be questioning how much he had your best interests at heart initially when he sold you a completely unsuitable horse!
 
Ok - both my daughters have ridden since they were little. We had our pony for two years before we bought Lita. My older daughter has an ex racehorse that she has brought on herself. Before that my older daughter backed and brought on a pony as her previous stables. However, my younger daughter did have a very bad fall when we were looking for horses - she got thrown into a fence and broke her collar bone - and it has knocked her confidence.

We have fairly regular lessons - given how bad the weather is. Our stables are not fantastic and the very small arena has been flooded all winter. There is no one with any real experience at the stables to help - although there is a very helpful and supportive, older than them, woman there.

We have sent Lita away for a week. She came back better in the riding but the ground manners were just as bad. It's like she senses the girls are smaller than the lads at the stables and she can take the p*ss.
 
No doubt you will have done all the necessary checks? If all is well on this score then first question I would ask is; where did she come from (was she imported) and do you have her FULL life history including all homes?

Depending on your answer to the above, may have me suggest something other than I would normally suggest.
 
It is a big jump sometimes from ponies. While you can not worry too much about schooling with an older pony that has been there and got the t shirt, and just go out and have fun, a young horse is going to need consistent work on the flat to have enough strength to cope with the jumping, and at 5 this horse is still learning.

The issue is probably discomfort, or loss of confidence - both of which can be resolved but require patience, and possibly sacrificing some shows and jumping for a little while
 
If you've had everything physically checked and you've got all the help you're going to be able to get - I'd sell her. It's not worth spending months/years fighting with a horse that sounds like it's probably going to get worse, only to end up in a situation where your daughter has lost confidence and your horse is worthless. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but life's too short - get your daughter a horse she can ride/deal with and find a nice new home for your mare - your daughter will thank you for it in the long run from the sound of it.

If you are honest with buyers or if you sell her through a pro, you should be able to find someone who can deal with her and doesn't mind the bad manners (ie. someone with a groom!)
 
Hi Nuala

I think it is probably worth sending her away for slightly longer to see if the jumping improves and her attitude changes. She is still young and probably trying it on if she thinks she can get away with it. But it may also just be part of her personality which is to some degree always going to be there.

From my experience I think wrambloods do take longer to mature and can have attitude. At least if she is jumping and schooling better you may get more or less what you paid.

Having said the above, if the dealer will give you back what you paid in exchange for another then that may be the best solution. Don't think you have failed, that horses for you and we have all been in your position. Enjoyment and safety have to come first over looks.
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I feel your daughter looks overhorsed and the horse has become more in charge in all its life, firstly on the ground and now in ridden work as well. Your daughter really doesn't look confident and comfortable in her jumping. Sorry.
The horse looks lovely but I think your daughter would be better on a more experienced and steady confidence giver.
Sorry.
 
OMG She's by Parco??? And has Ramiro and Alme Z in her bloodlines...she is a seriously well bred little mare, and I agree with you, she is stunning to look at.

For what it's worth, friends of mine (very experienced SJers) gave in to their normal instincts last year and bought a young mare (they have had a vow since their pony days to only ever have geldings
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) and although she, too, is beautiful, they have found her a real devil in terms of manners - or lack of them. She has a huge jump, but back end of last year she started bucking very violently. They did all the right things - had physio/back man/vet out - but they still are not sure whether they have solved her problems. I can see them eventually selling her on; all they are doing is fighting with her - and if you have to fight, the fun goes out of it all.

If you and your daughters have this horse as a 'fun' horse (i.e. if you have no major competitive ambitions, but rather just ride and compete for fun) then I would say this mare is not for you. You dont seem to have bonded with her (or her with you) and it may well be that she is perhaps more suited to the fast-moving competitive lifestyle of a professional SJ yard. With the potential that is clear in the photos, and her amazing breeding, I cannot see that you will have a problem selling her. It sounds like it has been, and will continue to be, one big fight, and there is no need for it to be so!
 
Yes that does make sense - I just wondered if it would help this mare too - if she's a bit of a stressy type? Sounds like your daughters are certainly capable - I'd be inclined to look into pain-issues - what does she get fed?
Kate x
 
Very often their teats never go back to being tiny again after foaling. I'm obviously on a different track from everyone else on here, but if you could figure out whether she has had a foal then this may answer some questions.

It was the dams lines which made me initially wonder about this mare.
 
I was just about to say the same thing and also agree with the other posts on her especially from Mother Hen, jumpthemoon and JJ2. I got my horse as a 4 year old and he was lovely, then he was 5 and a complete pain in the A*&e, everyone said wait till he is 5 then he will show you what he is really like! He is now 7, has knocked my confidence on several occasions but then I am an adult and am prepared to stick with it... for now!!

I would think that if the mare has realised it can take the P*ss it really needs someone with more experience (I am not knocking your daughters ability) to deal with her. I would be inclined though to see if you can exchange her or sell her for something more suitable as you don't want something awful to happen to your daughter, sorry to sound melodramatic but I am just thinking of your daughters future riding happiness and safety.

As also posted though don't let the dealer take you for a ride, excuse the pun, do you have access to a good instructor who could assess your daughters ability and how she may progress with the mare? that could be a better start if you really don't want to part with her, at least not just yet? Then if you do have to go and look at others maybe take the instructor with you?
 
At the risk of making a generalisation, some warmbloods are broken and schooled quite intensely at a young age. It may be that this mare has been working quite hard, and with a less experienced rider is beginning to either lose confidence in herself, or realise she can take the p*ss, or possibly both. Would you consider giving her a break from ridden work, a month or so to chill and relax? I have no idea how confident and competent your daughter is, but many teenagers are perfectly capable of dealing with a green/young/nervous horse if they have the patience and empathy. There could be dozens of things causing her bad behaviour, but going back to square one and treating her as if she has to learn everything from scratch is one option, particularly on the ground. I cannot abide bad mannered and dangerous horses, and that behaviour needs to be addressed. Maybe look into her feed - is she getting a lot of hard feed? Some warmbloods do very well on not very much. I am sure you will get a lot of advice, and I really hope you manage to get to the bottom of this.

It does seem as if the mare has the potential to go far, but that doesn't mean she has to. She is your horse, so do with her as you wish. If you decide she is not the right horse for you, there is no shame in that. Good luck!
 
I would sell her/exchange her. Your daughter doesn't look at all comfortable and I am trying, and failing, to see anything impressive or special about the mare that would make me want to keep trying with her. Horses with bad ground manners need to be taken in hand before it all gets to a point where the horse is dangerous.

Get your daughter a schoolmaster to have some fun on and get used to jumping horse classes, there is plenty of time for her to have a youngster in the future, but for now, from what you have said, you are on a road to disaster - sorry for being so blunt
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She is on Slobbermash, Alfa A, and Bailey's Top Line No 4. Slobbermash is an imported conditioning feed designed to put weight on her. We have no grass at all at the moment. We also give her magnesium and ad lib haylage when she is in her stables.
 
sell it...and buy your daughter something a little more "schoolmaster/mistress"......

the kid looks totally uncomfortable and over horsed...

just my opinion...
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Hmm well perhaps I was barking up the wrong tree here. It was just when I looked at her pedigree and saw that all the sires were well known and all the dams were nobodies.
 
Not only Ramiro - but having never looked at those sort of lines...she goes back to Eclipse....and the earliest I could find was a horse from 1690. Gosh....mine was '14.2hh, Irish..born 1998. ' Job done! How lovely to be able to trace it back so far!

Good luck with it all!
 
Not at all worried about you being blunt. That's why I asked. We can see we are on the road to disaster - and that's why we are trying to stop it now and make the right decision.
 
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