Please help - advice needed

Normally, I'd give suggestions of how to manage the bad manners on the ground, but I've studied the pictures of your daughter riding, and I'd say sell her, even if you lose money.
In all the photos, your daughter is tense and scared, and the mare is tense and scared too. Your daughter has a lovely figure for a rider, but looks a little novice to bring on a difficult horse.
I know it always goes against the grain to think that you'll lose money on selling a horse, but I'd recommend you return her to the dealer, and buy something a good deal older with more miles on the clock - a schoolmaster/schoolmistress for your daughter to learn more on, and enjoy.
Oh, and to my mind, something that tries to kick me in the stable is never 'beautiful' - beauty is as beauty does.
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The alfa-a is a phyto-oestrogen, not much point in the magnexium sith it, stop the Alfa-a, if she is at all marish it will add to it (this is from painful personal experience!)
 
Please don't take this the wrong way but a five year old is a very young horse and needs someone with experience to show her how she should behave. I think that buying a five year old as a transition between ponies and horses is a huge risk and it sounds like the horse is getting a bit out of control. It might be best to exchange her for something a bit older, who has 'been there, done that', which your daughter can have fun on and learn.

I am sorry for you as it must be really difficult to make the decision and I hope it all works out for the best.
 
Nuala - I have PM'd you. Stunning horse - very well bred. She sounds a little like my mare who is 5 and who I have had imported.

One of the problems may be that she could have been produced by a very experienced professional who will be telling her exactly what to do all the time, very confidently.

Five is still very young and it may be that she is now finding that her riders are not as precise or strong as she is used to & she may be unsettled about it all. She may even be realising that she is bigger and stronger and can dominate you - this is a rocky path

IMO I would exchange her for a schoolmaster type if the dealers are happy to. As someone else said, beauty isn't all in the looks. A horse that gives confidence & allows your daughters to progress is just as beautiful as one that that looks lovely. Good luck
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She is on Slobbermash, Alfa A, and Bailey's Top Line No 4. Slobbermash is an imported conditioning feed designed to put weight on her. We have no grass at all at the moment. We also give her magnesium and ad lib haylage when she is in her stables.

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I know a few horses who are lunatics on Alfa-A. My gelding included. Anyone who knows my boy will know "lunatic" is not in his make-up. LOL.

If it were me I would drop back to just a feed balancer and play it by ear from there.

It is so easy to look from the outside in and say "Get rid". When you are on the inside you just want to do the right thing by the horse, your daughter, you, the next owner. It is such a headache.
Just today I pointed out to my niece who has a young horse. At times having a young horse is much like jumping out of one bucket of poop and in to another.

I am sure you will do what is right.
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I agree with Shilasdair. I hate to say I told you so but I have seen this so many times when a youngster goes on to horses with inexperienced parents. No offence intended. They buy something young and it all goes wrong because these highly bred horses are not the same as the ponios!

Sell her on and buy something 15.3 ish, older with native/tb breeding and she will have a lot more fun.
 
I can see why you are reluctant to swap her, she is very nice.
How often are you having help with her from a good instructor?
This is in my mind vital at least once a week with a 5 year old and a nice but not terribly experienced with young horses rider.
The ground behaviour is unlikely to change, she has improved but some mares are just like that, if you feel the girls' safety is at risk, you should send her back regardless of any money loss.
When you get to the stage you are now there is always a reason for the stopping, with a youngster it's 99% lack of confidence in the rider.
You say you're not very experienced but your post sounds different, look at the mare when ridden and ask yourself honestly if your rider is capable enough to train the horse (not just ride, a five year old needs clear direction when ridden) or would she be happier with something that will train her as in an older horse.
There are lots of options, get a BSJA accredited trainer to come and help regularly, send the horse and rider to a yard for a few days to build their confidence up together, get an experienced rider to school her over fences then teach the rider..
Personally I would be more worried about the kicking out and handling from the ground, I'm assuming you have done basic handling where she has been long reined past and over spooky objects etc, and sometimes when tied up they just need a companion next to them or even a smack if they persist in messing about..
One of ours goes mental if brought in alone and yesterday got a smack in the end when she danced like a flea to have her rug back on..She stood still then.
This mare looks to me a bit like a professional's horse in that she needs firm experienced handling.
Have you tried her on stroppy mare supplement? The stable kicking sounds like not enough turn out or work, does she go out for the majority of every day?
if not that's a huge part of the problem, but to me the greatest problem is your daughter's lack of experience with a youngster.
I really would look for a BSJA coach and follow their advice, then if after a few sessions she is still being difficult they can give you an honest opinion as to whether you should keep her.
She is such a lovely mare I agree it would be a shame to give up without trying all the options..
 
Thanks everyone. I am considering all your advice carefully - although it does seem the consensus is sell her!!

I think the problem is compounded by our lack of facilities. I do my best to support the girls with their interest in horses - including paying out enough to pay a mortgage. But there are limits. I work full time so the only time available for lessons is at the weekend and we have hire somewhere and trailer there. Given the costs of that - it's not something we can do every week.
 
She is a beautiful mare! If she was jumping and now she's not I agree with others that there's got to be a reason. Is she being jumped too often maybe, could she be younger than you think, as she lost her confidence or is she picking up that your daughter is losing confidence. It does sounds like she needs to learn some manners in a firm but sympathetic way on the ground and if she was mine I would be going back to basics with groundwork, flatwork and hacking (if she's safe in traffic) then re-introduce pole work and then jumping as she progresses. Good luck whatever you decide.
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Given that you've had all the necessary checks done it's really a question of wether you want to persevere with a horse that is not ideal or take the loss and replace her. Young horses are often hard to handle, particularly if you aren't very experienced and in all honesty you may do more damage by continuing to attempt and fix your problems without some help.
I am always one to try and persevere, and I think getting individual lessons for the mare would help. Also, are both your daughters riding her? And at what height? She is a lovely mare but she will take a bit of serious work to resolve her problems, particularly on the ground. If she has no respect for your daughters on the ground she is unlikely to have respect for them when being ridden.
As far as value goes it's very hard to say, it would depend how badly she is gong and how much potetntial she has, which is hard to determine from photos. For what its worth i wish you the best of luck - it often takes time to get the best from them!
 
She's pretty, but from the photos, I don't think she's jumping much bigger or better than my son's 11.2 TBH.

I would exchange her asap before your daughter loses her nerve, and before the mare becomes more difficult. I think your daughter may be a little over horsed, and by stepping down a level you all may have more fun.
 
Thanks.

We have had individual lessons. They are both riding her as my oldest is stronger and able to get her to behave more. On the other hand straight forward riding isn't really the biggest problem. She hacks out well with other horses - they don't take her far on her own.

I do think that it is a confidence issue. We did rest her for some of November and most of December - partly because the ground was so wet and muddy and partly to see if it would help.
 
Nuala, if your mare is what I think she is, then if she were mine, I would turn her away for a year. After this time, I'd bring her very slowly back into ridden work but this needs to be with an experienced horseman. During the turning away, she would need to be handled on the ground frequently to establish much needed trust. These horses can be helped but it needs to be in a sensitive manner.
 
Thanks Tia. I will give it some thought. If land was no problem and I had something else for Abby to ride I would do this tomorrow. But I am also worried that we don't have the experience to help her. Then of course I feel responsible for her and would worry about what sort of home she would go to if we sold her and whether she would be looked after properly.

I do have details of her breeders - they are in the Netherlands - but google isn't giving up any information.
 
I had just the same problem when i brought my TB mare. I had my Pony Club DC come out and just give me some tips on handling her as they were experienced with dealing with TBs.

How long hav you had her??
It took my mare a good 6 months to settle down and now shes the superstar she was when i first tried her.

Hope she settles down soon.
 
That's the trouble. Most people just don't have the finances/land/facilities to realistically do this. I have a few crippled horses here, LOL!! But I can turn any amount of horses away at no real cost to myself. There's no way anyone who liveries at stables could really do this unfortunately.

My guy with the broken neck has been wandering around my fields for 3 years (making babies so I'll let him off
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) and I've only now started to back him. His sister with the crippled legs has also been turned out for the same time; she is now coming sound finally and she will be the next one I back. No way could I have done this in England as I only had 35 acres there; but here, with so much more land, I can, and I am aware of how good a feeling it is to be able to do this.

I think in your position I would consider pay a rider to get the horse back up to a saleable condition and then advertise. I know you don't want to do this, but I think this horse may need a bit more knowledge than your girls have. Keep their attention on horses and look for an older RC schoolmaster. My old dun XC horse would have been absolutely perfect for them.

One other piece of advice (I think someone else may have mentioned this) is that if I were advising you, I'd suggest you go for a Connemara (or other calm native) x TB - I'd steer clear of imported WB's and go for a more grounded British-bred horse.
 
I read your post before I looked at the pictures and I have to say I was shocked. In order for you and your daughters to be putting up with such behaviour on the ground I expected to see a horse being jumped over a BN course or something similar. I suppose I also had that picture in my mind due to the word 'potential' being used so much. The fact is actually that the horse is being jumped over poles on the floor, which I have no doubt, absolutely anything could jump.
Judging from the pictures which I realise are just a moment in time, my only advice would be to stop putting your daughters in danger by dealing with a 'potentially' vicious horse and buy something (probably a fraction of the price of your current mare) for them to have fun on!!
From the photo's they don't appear to be overly confident I honestly don't think this mare will help that.
An added plus to my argument is that you have said that there isn't always time or the facilities to have lessons every week, so I really think your kids would benefit from having a 'been there, done that' horse.

I hope it works out
 
Sadly I think you are right Tia. I think we have just bitten off more than we can chew. And my daughter's confidence has been sadly dented by the very bad fall she had last year when we were trying out horses.

I understand - from what others have said - that she is a nice little rider - has very soft hands and a good feeling for the horse. I just think she is beginning to worry about what Lita will do next. She has never looked as worried or as nervous as she did today - and as shown in these pictures. My other daughter is different. She doesn't look or feel nervous - she is just fed up of dealing with a very bad mannered horse.
 
What about having your riding instructor watch wat the mare is like with your girls in the ground and then giving you some tips on things to try and stop her from misbehaving? just a thought as iv had horses that are sent away for re 'educating' and they com back to me and are just the same as they don't respect me they respect the person who has been working with them for the past week or how ever long.
 
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I read your post before I looked at the pictures and I have to say I was shocked. In order for you and your daughters to be putting up with such behaviour on the ground I expected to see a horse being jumped over a BN course or something similar. I suppose I also had that picture in my mind due to the word 'potential' being used so much. The fact is actually that the horse is being jumped over poles on the floor, which I have no doubt, absolutely anything could jump.
Judging from the pictures which I realise are just a moment in time, my only advice would be to stop putting your daughters in danger by dealing with a 'potentially' vicious horse and buy something (probably a fraction of the price of your current mare) for them to have fun on!!
From the photo's they don't appear to be overly confident I honestly don't think this mare will help that.
An added plus to my argument is that you have said that there isn't always time or the facilities to have lessons every week, so I really think your kids would benefit from having a 'been there, done that' horse.

I hope it works out

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I sooo agree. I thought we were talking about someone having a problem with a BSJA mare from the post - but, as I said, my son's 11.2 mare is jumping this height, and is an absolute angel to boot. She's worth about 1K, but is a total star.

That makes this mare not worth very much in my book....?

Exchange her asap if the dealer has offered, and don't quibble too much about the price - just make sure you get something your daughter's can have fun with next time round!

I hope it all goes alright - I'm sure you'll all be much happier with another horse.
 
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We've had her for six months now!

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6 months is not along time particularly for a 5yo who's been shipped over to the UK, with a dealer for 5 weeks and then with you for 6 months. She's a baby, she needs firm and sympathetic guidance from an experienced handler/rider. Your daughter may be a good rider but youngsters can and will test you. If you haven't got the time, facilities and experience, money for expert help, I would sell her to someone experienced otherwise, the poor horse will be passed from pillar to post. Your daughther is likely to stop riding her anyway if she carries on.
 
I would take her off the haylage, seriously, it's like rocket fuel for some horses, it just blows their minds, and put her on good quality hay instead. In fact I would probably take her off all hard feed and just give lots of fibre feed with supplements. She IS only five, she's just a baby really, so I agree with whoever said turn her away for a little while, forget about competing and do some consistent groundwork with her instead. Just play with her, how about doing some clicker training or something? It would really help your daughter to get some confidence back with her.
 
Personally I would get some help with the groundwork and see what happens from there. Get yourself an instructor/an RA/Richard Maxwell in to show you how to handle her on the ground, you will probably find that all else will improve once you get that sorted. It seems a shame to have to part with her when she could be perfect with a little work, you would also greatly increase her value if she was well mannered and performed well. Good luck in whatever you decide to do.
 
Nuala,

I may be repeating what has been said in other posts. But it seems to me that your daughter is simply over horsed. Both in terms of the mare's temperament, and your daughters ability to ride her.

Cut your losses. Sell her, get something that is about 12 or 13, and has been there and seen it all. A Schoolmaster.

Good luck. Awful situation to be in.
 
I have also been in your position so I know how it feels. I was sold a very well bred imported 5 year old KWPN by my then instructor who assured me that he would be "perfect" for me. He wasn't! He was big, strong and nappy, had a ferocious buck and couldn't be hacked alone or in company because he was so scared of the lightest traffic. I simply didn't have the confidence, talent or experience to get him going properly.

I was conscious of the fact that he was losing value with me so I sold him after 9 months when he was still young and he was bought by someone who was having lessons with a professional SJer. I now have a native pony and riding is just 100% fun again, like it should be.

I would sell the horse and get something more suitable for your daughters' level of confidence and experience at this point in time. Both of them are very young so they have plenty of time to bring on another young WB in the future.
 
I completely agree with Shilasdair on this one. I am not a competitor in any discipline, but even to me, neither horse nor rider looked comfortable in any of those pics - except the one in between jumps! If the dealer is happy to exchange, then I would go for that. If your daughter is not ready to compete at a high level, then I don't see why you'd want to persevere.

The other option is to move her to a place that offers 24/7 turnout, to try and chill her out a bit. She is quite young, full of beans by all accounts and could do with letting off steam outside the arena!
 
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