Please help if you can

[FestiveG]

Electrified sheep netting round the inside of the existing fence. We have in the yard, as the rotter with excellent recall, unless hunting, cannot be allowed to leave the property unsupervised!

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

If your dog has been used to breaking out and running free, my feeling is that the recall training would need to be done in conjunction with other training on Graeme Hall lines, like teaching the dog to walk nicely on a lead and to sit and not jump on the furniture. As with horses, the routine compliance in small things, paves the way for compliance in more difficult (tempting) situations.

Please re read all my posts Skib, I appreciate your input, but the whole point is this dog is VERY obedient, HIGHLY trained, has excellent recall, walks to heel etc....under normal circumstances and certainly would be streets ahead of many other dogs in an enclosed training environment, that has been proved over and over. She has also been extensively assessed by a very experienced trainer and handler of this type of dog and in his opinion she has been trained to a very high standard for trialing and everyday walking on lead and in confined area recall etc...BUT....she has that unusual and rarely seen in this type of dog red mist type of prey drive that complete negates any normal recall or obedience training.

Thankfully they are not common, it is considered a rogue dog and in most circumstances would simply be shot as not fit for purpose and not fit for breeding and no attempts at re training on God's earth will get that propensity out of her brain. I would rather take opinion and advice from a dog handler that has actually seen and worked with my dog , than some obscure online trainer selling books and videos. sorry if that is harsh but I do find your opinion extremely dismissive of what has been done so far to try and help my dog. this is NOT a dog training issue as such - it is overcoming a highly over intense prey drive in a working dog that has basically lost the plot and will lose the plot when it picks up a scent, entirely different matter than your usual nicely trained working dogs.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

What about the no fence containment affairs inside the fence think it works by shocking the dog as it gets to the boundary. Might sound cruel but if she learns its better than the alternative

We did try with a friends shock collar doing similar wind and rain - I also hate that sort of thing but desperation is setting in to help keep this dog alive. We used it in a similar manner - complete freedom, watched from upper window and shock applied as she made a run for fence - no difference up and over she went. Tried it several times - again with no affect to a point that the shock being applied was in our opinion bordering on abusive and still ran straight through it. - thank you though for the idea

thanks Paddy 555 I shall look at those vids ideas now and send them on to my son (y) thank you.

YorksG I had not even thought about that type of sheep fencing, now that could work, however she scrambles it is going to be a constant shock the whole way up isnt it? I shall also lookin inot that - thank you.

 

[CorvusCorax]

If working with a collar make sure that you are assisted by someone who knows what they are doing. It takes weeks of conditioning and observation of the dog, having it wear a dummy collar etc, done properly. A cheap collar off the internet, whack it on and boom, isn't it.
Agree a guy in a hall with no distractions isn't going to help here. There have been multiple repetitions here where the dog has had the behaviour reinforced and there is now very little reward which will equal or better how much the dog will get it's rocks off on buggering off and chasing stuff. IMO it either has to be proper Hand of God level correction and/or containment/management.

ETA posted before your last, so was not casting aspersions on you or your friend or their budget but working with a collar would take a lot longer and it wouldn't be a fix in one session.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

No problem CC thanks for the input- I cant recall the make of friend's collar we borrowed but we did try for several sessions and friend does have some experience with retraining difficult dogs, she tended to agree with our other friend the trials dog chap that this dog is way beyond the naughty disobedient dog buggering off to have a bit of extra playtime. Jessie really is in another zone altogether and a danger to herself and obviously any livestock she might run through or at even.

I appreciate what you are saying - but we have arrived at the safe containment being our only realistic remaining option with her. Sadly if that doesn't work then she will be PTS, far rather that than have a farmer throw her down at my gate with half her head blown off. It wouldn't be the first time that has happened around this way.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I know they are a very emotive subject but as a last ditch chance for waht sounds like a nice dog would you consider an E collar?? Used in the right way they can be a very effective tool, I know someone who used one on a stock chaser, it was that or it would be shot, dog now just wears the collar on the beep setting and totally respects it, making life nicer for all - if your'e not comfortable with it that's fine, just thought I'd mention it.

thanks maisie06 but please see my previous posts this has been tried without any success. thanks though

 

[CorvusCorax]

All of mine walk on a the proper 10M giant flexi. They can walk nicely on it/not kill themselves but they were taught distance control and recall first. Any tool can be crap in the wrong hands.
Dogs can also run off bikes/scooters etc to burn off energy.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

All of mine walk on a the proper 10M giant flexi. They can walk nicely on it/not kill themselves but they were taught distance control and recall first. Any tool can be crap in the wrong hands.
Dogs can also run off bikes/scooters etc to burn off energy.

Yes she walks beautifully on it and has great fun going in and out of the rushes hunting voles etc. with her pal Jem down the fields quite safely...but suddenly the head throws up, the nose twitches and thats it she launches herself. We have even seen her on at least two occasions when being played with loose, with a frisbee (her favourite game) - halfway launched in the air to catch it then suddenly twist her head away in the opposite direction throw the head up and the off she goes on a scent!

Same thing happened, running flat out towards me doing a retrieve with a toy, me crouched down with open arms showering praise on her, my hands ready with tid bits.....really ramped up excitement and reward to keep her focused. Stopped dead mid recall, twisted around catching the scent and dropped the toy and was gone! I cant tell you how many times this sort of thing has happened now, gets so depressing and feel so defeated.

And the mad bit is when we eventually get her she is so totally thrilled to see us! Obviously we never chastise her at that point, but she could at least have the grace to look slightly ashamed of herself!

 

[brighteyes]

https://www.jacksons-fencing.co.uk/fencing/security-toppings/rota-spike

This looks lightweight

 

[Tiddlypom]

Electrified sheep netting round the inside of the existing fence. We have in the yard, as the rotter with excellent recall, unless hunting, cannot be allowed to leave the property unsupervised!

This is extra tall chicken netting, 1.45m tall.

https://www.agrisellex.co.uk/collec...timate-chicken-netting?variant=31954517819505

The late JRT was a very determined climber. Electric netting put a stop to that.

 

[brighteyes]

What about a scent-spoiler? Could she wear a muzzle of some sort impregnated or otherwise formulated to baffle a scent?

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

https://www.jacksons-fencing.co.uk/fencing/security-toppings/rota-spike

This looks lightweight

brighteyes you are just plain wicked!!! did make me smile though

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Never thought of a scent spoiler - rushes off to google!

 

[brighteyes]

This is extra tall chicken netting, 1.45m tall.

https://www.agrisellex.co.uk/collec...timate-chicken-netting?variant=31954517819505

The late JRT was a very determined climber. Electric netting put a stop to that.

This dog sounds like some sort of canine bulldozer.

 

[brighteyes]

Never thought of a scent spoiler - rushes off to google!

I made it up - inasmuchas could one be configured?

 

[Tiddlypom]

This dog sounds like some sort of canine bulldozer.

Oh, I agree, but maybe leccie fencing plus an overhang? This is last chance saloon territory.

 

[brighteyes]

brighteyes you are just plain wicked!!! did make me smile though

I think it would do the trick if you don't mind a temporarily perforated dog!

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Your theory sounds possibly plausible brighteyes, despite the tongue in cheek suggestion lol! Here is the scent - maybe put a few spots on a soft halti type muzzle? https://store.sportsden.ie/trailmas...8OjRYUsX8MybKs0TsW2o4WRXJfMaPT1hoCt7IQAvD_BwE

 

[SAujla]

I can't give any helpful advice but I wanted to say that I really hope you can figure something out. She is clearly so intelligent and loved, just finding it incredibly difficult to overcome her instincts

 

[gunnergundog]

Firstly, you need to make sure that the dog understands the cues you are asking of it. Does it understand recall, for instance, in the kitchen? In the living room? In the garden? Does it understand the cue WITH distractions in those environments.

To be fair to the dog you need to be 100% sure that it understands what you are asking of it and that it is CHOOSING not to obey in certain situations, namely, those where you are unable to deliver consequences. (Reinforcing desired behaviour via harness on long line for instance.)

If you elect to use an e-collar, you MUST allow the dog to wear it for at least 3 weeks WITHOUT triggering it so that it disassociates what is about to happen with the collar. Also, check the dogs sensitivity levels.....assuming you have a 'modern day' collar with a variable 'output', check where the dog even acknowledges a 'stim' with a flick of an ear. You build from there, as each dog will be different. I have known some german bred dogs go off the scale, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Start low in a safe environment and build the distractions. However, a short sharp lesson is better than continual nagging. This is where an experienced user with GOOD timing can be invaluable.

Give the bitch a job to do....use mental stimulation....tracking, working trials type work, search and rescue etc etc. This will often tire them more than physical exercise.

Also, find what her trigger is.....gamebirds? Show her that you are part of the hunt....use cold game to give her what she wants in a safe environment. What is it that triggers HER red mist? It will be different for each dog. You need to become a team with the same goals, albeit under your control!

PS Appreciate you say that you have used a collar before but not sure in what circumstance...ie if just slapped on and shocked, what variability there was in the collar re shock, what warning re vibration or noise etc etc. Hence, re-visiting the suggestion.

PPS And yes, I have used a collar myself - the exception rather than the norm, but when needs must to preserve the life/quality of life of certain dogs I will do so if all other avenues explored and failed.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

thank you gunnerdog - we are confident she is understanding the cues we are using. This has kindly been reinforced by our friend who breeds and works thee type of dogs, that we are using all cues she would have learned as a field trial dog and does respond to them instantly in a controlled environment. Yes she is most definitely choosing to do what she does. Yes she understands the cues in all situations with distraction as I have stated several times on this thread, UNLESS SHE IS OFF LEAD IN AN OPEN AND UNFENCED AREA, then she makes the choice to run when she picks up a scent, or the sounds of lambs in the distance is another trigger. Judging by her already catching and killing rats, setting up snipe and pheasant, causing a mink to break cover, capturing and killing fledglings, I would guess her scent choice is many and varied wouldn't you?

The dog is highly stimulated through various play activities and training in new areas, had you read above you will see we have increased her abilities to enjoy other methods of game and role play including using her brain for the exact reason that we do realise that because of the type of background she comes from and the problems they the professional handlers also obviously had with her, that we MUST keep her stimulated and her brain occupied. Therefore we do, that is not in question, but I appreciate you might not have known this had you not read all my replies above. Please be aware this is NOT a new problem since coming to us, this is in fact the very reason she was got rid of in the first place, so please do not immediately assume we as the relatively new owners are the issue.

Please be aware this dog was most certainly passed onto us rather than being shot for the very reason that they, the professional breeders and competitors in field trialing could not cure her so she was worthless to them.

thank you for your input.

 

[Goldenstar]

We had one lab whose party piece was doing the runner .
I was at my wits end and a freedom fence round the whole property it worked of course you have to train them but it solved my problems.

ETA this is a dog who in my opinion sounds like she needs a job

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

We had one lab whose party was doing the runner .
I was at my wits end and a freedom fence round the whole property it worked of course you have to train them but it solved my problems.

ETA this is a dog who in my opinion sound like she needs a job

I agree entirely Goldenstar she does need a job, but she did have a job and an extremely active one according to the videos I stumbled across - well actually were given a hint about their existence by a friend and tracked them down.

And she was got rid of for the very same reason that we are now experiencing with her - so having a job didn't solve it for her in her old home. But we are of course doing all we possibly can to keep her as busy and stimulated as we can.

What is a freedom fence please? sorry edited to add I assume the wire laid beneath ground used in conjunction with a collar? We had thought as using a shock collar in a similar way had not worked, i.e she ran straight through it every time, that this might not work either? Perhaps it would - another option to consider.

 

[gunnergundog]

Nowhere have I said or insinuated that you were the problem.

If you choose not to accept genuinely offered help, that is your issue and not mine.

Oh, and yes, I did read your original post but obviously didn't have the Mensa level intelligence to read between the lines when you said that she 'came from a breeder'......that what you actually meant was that she came from a professional field trialler....as per your most recent post.

Silly me!

PS As you stated above that you can control her in all circumstance unless off lead in an unfenced area, I assume that you have her under control in a rabbit pen or pheasant pen??

 

[Dasher66]

You can get a collar which operates with a remote control setting off a squirt of citronella in front of the dog.
I was very sceptical that it would work on our high prey PJRT, but it stopped her in her tracks from flatout to a standstill when she chased next door’s cat.
Like your dog she can’t be let out on her own, ever.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Oh, and yes, I did read your original post but obviously didn't have the Mensa level intelligence to read between the lines when you said that she 'came from a breeder'......that what you actually meant was that she came from a professional field trialler....as per your most recent post.

please re read - your are not reading my original post and totally misquoting me. My other dog came from a professional show breeder - read further please, this dog that I am having problems with did not come from a show dog breeder, she came from a field trial competitor and breeder, two entirely different dogs, two entirely different backgrounds. so NO - you are right you have obviously not made the huge leap in intelligence to read what is clearly written and made your own totally incorrect assumptions about the dog in question.

I was not rejecting genuine and well meant help - but I could not take on board any of your suggestions when you clearly had not got the facts of the matter right to start with - so we were reading from a completely different pages weren't we?

No I have not had her under control in either situation you mention, but I think it might be better if we leave the discussion between now if you don't mind because so far your lack of understanding or willingness to read my posts is not proving helpful to me at all. thank you again for your input.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

You can get a collar which operates with a remote control setting off a squirt of citronella in front of the dog.
I was very sceptical that it would work on our high prey PJRT, but it stopped her in her tracks from flatout to a standstill when she chased next door’s cat.
Like your dog she can’t be let out on her own, ever.

Now that does sound interesting D66 - thank you for the suggestion, I shall go and research those now.

 

[Goldenstar]

It a wire that forms loop around for instance a garden it can go underground under gates etc .
The dog wears a collar with a box on it and there are blunt metal prongs that need to touch the neck .
The collar give a shock using static electricity you adjust the intensity according to the dogs needs and on mine I could reduce it tight down within a fortnight .
As the dog gets within about 2 metres of the fence ( I think you set this to suit ) the collar bleeps as the dog gets closer it bleeps quicker and quicker until its a constant tone if the dog does not back off it shocks them .
It sounds awful but my dog learnt in two training sessions and never shocked herself ever .
She would test the collar as she worked out it did not bleep if the battery got flat so I had to have good discipline for testing and changing the batterys .

 

[gunnergundog]

No I have not had her under control in either situation you mention

So, the facts are you have a FT bred dog that has been rehomed. This was my original understanding. Now it is your turn to kindly re-read my original post.

If you don't have said dog under control in a contained environment with scent/distractions/rabbits/pheasants/snipe/whatever, then you can not expect to have it under control in a similar unfenced area.

 

[Tiddlypom]

It a wire that forms loop around for instance a garden it can go underground under gates etc .
The dog wears a collar with a box on it and there are blunt metal prongs that need to touch the neck .
The collar give a shock using static electricity you adjust the intensity according to the dogs needs and on mine I could reduce it tight down within a fortnight .

An equine vet I know had a freedom fence for his JRT. It worked to keep the dog in some of the time, but then the dog would get so frustrated that he just 'had' to escape. Vet would hear the dog yelp as he sailed over the freedom fence and off and away.