Please help if you can

[Goldenstar]

They are not great with terriers and work best if they are on a fence line .
My dog was a cunning monster and it transformed her life .

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

https://www.jacksons-fencing.co.uk/fencing/security-toppings/rota-spike

This looks lightweight

But it will likely cost a fortune in vet bills

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

They are not great with terriers and work best if they are on a fence line .
My dog was a cunning monster and it transformed her life .

I think I will let my son go ahead with the planned refencing (when he decides exactly which to go with) and then if that isn't working I will go for this option you suggest. I cant seem to find any idea online of costs involved in laying the wire, cost of the collar and receiver, which system would suit best etc. so I will give the UK company a ring during the week. It does not sound as harsh as the zap collar and also I like the idea it gives them a warning sound within a certain distance of the fence line. Thank you

 

[SAujla]

But it will likely cost a fortune in vet bills

Maybe this would be good on the second fence, so if she gets over the first one she is faced with an even bigger deterrent on the second fence?

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

But it will likely cost a fortune in vet bills

Maybe this would be good on the second fence, so if she gets over the first one she is faced with an even bigger deterrent on the second fence?

Oh God I do hope you are both joking as brighteyes was!!! The thought of my poor little lab cut to shreds on that fence top - crikey I would rather shoot her myself than do that to her!

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Just to lighten the mood a tad here is the little escape artist - sweet as they come slumming it on their new leather sofa! Obviously VERY under stimulated here!

 

[paddy555]

Just to lighten the mood a tad here is the little escape artist - sweet as they come slumming it on their new leather sofa! Obviously VERY under stimulated here! View attachment 74239

how on earth could that sweet little dog cause all these problems
I hope you get her antics sorted, I can see why you love her so much.

 

[windand rain]

She is beautiful I think the freedom fence inside a more secure fence would be what I suggested earlier then if the freedom fence worked you would be able to set up an ever bigger area for a more open feel to things initially if it didn't work you would still have a barrier. One of my friends is a very highly qualified and exceptionally good dog behaviourist I could ask if she has any other ideas She was the trainer of the year in 2019

 

[Nari]

Nothing to add, but I really hope you can come up with something that works. Since she seems to be scent driven I do like the idea of using something to block scents in conjunction with adapting the fencing - as well as something like a halti which has essential oils on it could you also plant strongly scented flowers or herbs that would mask other smells, or paint the fence with something strong smelling? Or even regularly smear Vicks or similar under her nose when she's outside (check with the vet that it's safe for dogs, obviously).

 

[SAujla]

Oh God I do hope you are both joking as brighteyes was!!! The thought of my poor little lab cut to shreds on that fence top - crikey I would rather shoot her myself than do that to her!

Maybe it's too extreme I admit, was thinking more that she wouldn't even go near something so daunting but having read your posts it sounds like once she's in the red zone then she's all the way in. She is very beautiful

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Maybe it's too extreme I admit, was thinking more that she wouldn't even go near something so daunting but having read your posts it sounds like once she's in the red zone then she's all the way in. She is very beautiful

Dogs don't risk assess like people do, so it wouldn't stop her unless she physically couldn't get over it. It would never occur to her that the fence could cause her serious injury.

 

[ester]

We had a freedom fence on my yard, for the owners jack russells.
IIRC emits a warning beep (or vibrate) when they get close to the boundary. It did work for those two but neither particuarly prey orientated.
With a second fence you might avoid the opportunity for a run up?!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Mrs J I know this is very emotive for you/you're too 'close' to the situation but IMO, GDG save some solid advice. If you can afford it I'd look for either residential or 1-2-1 with a good trainer experienced in livestock/wildlife proofing as a last gasp.

 

[SusieT]

It sounds to me like she needs a job - and no offence if you and husband are both elderly and infirm you are probably not the right home for her. She probably needs an agility/obedience/canicross home who has a 'town' garden but goes out actively training/walking daily . For high prey drive dogs who have got used to hunting relaxed country homes are the worst things. They have unregulated space, too much wildlife and often country owners arent as active walkers as they have more space but actually spend less direct attention on the dogs exercise.
I think rehoming would be preferable to pts if you could find the right home, but clearly needs to be someone who absoloutely knows not to let her off anywhere not enclosed.

 

[SusieT]

e collar is unlikely to work in my experience as a highly drive dog will run through it, yelp, then be afraid to return.

 

[SAujla]

Dogs don't risk assess like people do, so it wouldn't stop her unless she physically couldn't get over it. It would never occur to her that the fence could cause her serious injury.

I'm still a novice so I never wondered if dogs risk assess or not but good for me to know they don't.

SusieT I don't think the OP age has anything to do with it, professional handlers couldn't successfully deal with her prey drive and even so her sons are on hand to help.

 

[P3LH]

Going back to when I was a kid we went through exactly the same as you with our rescue russell. I do feel your pain. She was tiny but would scale six foot fences to escape and take herself off hunting. She had even been known to throw herself up into trees and scrabble to a height to get over the boundary. When the want kicked in she was gone and nothing stopped her. I’ve seen her run straight through electric fencing to go hunting, and I even recall one horrible time she ploughed right through some barbed wire when after a muntjac - what lovely vets bills they were. She was notorious and literally nothing short of having her kennelled with a lid ir always supervised when outside, worked. She was the most well trained dog for a terrier, walked to heel all the time, perfect recall (would obviously take off after something if she saw it on a walk). I never actually remember walking her on a lead as a kid (god that’s pretty awful to admit!) but it was different when she got a whiff of something at home. She was off because the impulse was strong and it was more exciting to go hunting than be mooching about at home whilst I was at school!

It was a different place then, although still at the edge of the city there were many fields and woods which are now all housing estates, and roads that people still rode horses on or the local travellers raced their traps on - replaced by big busy roads to a new hospital. If it were nowadays we’d have had to rehome or she’d have been killed, back then she was lucky.

I suppose where I’m going with this is she never stopped - it only stopped when she got too old to be able to scale said six foot fences (we tried overhangs and she somehow managed to get over them, well through them I think) and even then she just changed course and looked for gaps to get through rather than things to get over. She still fought with her own shadow and was death to everything up until days before she was PTS.

When that instinct is there, it’s really almost impossible to suppress and can become a full time job at managing/redirecting. Her being that way is why I spent my childhood as a weird stig of the dump boy with ferrets in my pockets snd a terrier or two trotting along behind me. Should thank her really - I digress and am getting mawkish now.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Firstly thank you all so very much for taking the time to reply with so many positive ideas to crack thee code with Jessie. I really do appreciate it if I have not agreed with some ideas, but that is the whole idea of asking the question, give me ideas to try or to reject is grand.

CC I appreciate what you are saying and yes it is extremely emotive particularly as yesterday morning the decision was taken for me, almost, that if this does not work she will most likely be PTS. I accept that DGD is extremely experienced but I found that post did not show any insight in the circumstances and dog's history and GDG was not willing to reread to get the correct information, and his comment about testing her in game bird pens just about took the biscuit as utterly unhelpful and unrealistic, I cannot even understand why he thought that might be helpful other than to impress on me his/her own superior experience.....this area of Ireland is very low on the type of game bird hunting that would warrant having these type of pens and I am not about to take my dog 300 miles south to the type of hunting country that is more common to GDG experience searching for willing gamekeepers to let her run amok in their game pens! No I will not send her away to any trainer and the person who has helped enormously with this is extremely experienced and he has arrived at the conclusion she cannot and will not be trained out of it - her obedience and level of training are not in question before the red mist prey drive randomly sets in. His best advice is containment which is what we are presently trying to achieve. But thanks I really do appreciate all advice even if I might not agree with it.

It sounds to me like she needs a job - and no offence if you and husband are both elderly and infirm you are probably not the right home for her. She probably needs an agility/obedience/canicross home who has a 'town' garden but goes out actively training/walking daily . For high prey drive dogs who have got used to hunting relaxed country homes are the worst things. They have unregulated space, too much wildlife and often country owners arent as active walkers as they have more space but actually spend less direct attention on the dogs exercise.
I think rehoming would be preferable to pts if you could find the right home, but clearly needs to be someone who absoloutely knows not to let her off anywhere not enclosed.

Yes we are both elderly and very active until an accident last year and live in a very relaxed country home as you describe it and we always have done. My dogs were and always have been, actively walked at least 8 kms a day by myself and extra walks by other family members. However, as can be evidenced by my own GP I am an extremely active person for my age, I am'was very fit before accident and I hope to resume this when both my hips have been replaced hopefully by next spring. The regime temporarily is my husband walks them from approximately 1 hour in the morning incorporating checking the herd for me. They go out again for a short walk mid morning, or free play when the paddock WAS dog proof, with games and training with me. In the afternoon my son disappears with them for at least 1.5 hours over the routes I used to be able to walk myself.

After a sleep they will then get playtime outside with me, that again incorporates various activities and we have also set up a mini agility course just for her as she is so active, my other lazy lab not so interested in that!. If it weren't for Covid restrictions I would most definitely be joining some sort of agility training with her, she would be brilliant I believe. Hopefully that will become possible restrictions are lifted and I become more mobile again.

I am sorry you think that if we are unable to solve this it is because we are not a suitable home for her. We/I do not agree with you at all - I doubt you have experience of a rogue trials dog thath as gone 'over the edge' mentally, if you think we are the issue. Please re read - this dog was passed onto us by an unscrupulous breeder/trainer without any disclosure for this very reason. Normally she would have been shot, end of. The chance to make just €300 on her by selling to us was too much temptation for him so that is how we got where we are today with her.

Why would we rehome her if we cannot manage to contain her, to someone else who will also try to contain her or keep her permanently on a lead? I think also you need to have some notion of rehoming dogs here in Ireland, it is very often not a good experience for a dog. And retraining by some supposed Irish experts is also not a pleasant experience or humane. Alongside all the problems she is a very sweet, sensitive, loving and loyal little dog. If we fail, as others have failed with her before us, and cannot give her a happy and fulfilled life with us, she will not be rehomed to anyone, she will be humanely PTS here at home with us by her side.

I am sorry if that upsets anyone but that is the reality and it is a very, very hard place to be right now for me and for my family.

thanks again to you all, even the posters I do not agree with!, You took the time to read and comment, I am grateful for that. In particular thanks to those of you who have personal experience of this type of dog and understand where I am coming from and what an extremely difficult task it is to find solutions that still give her a happy and fulfilled life.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

I totally see where you are coming from and you have my heartfelt sympathy. A good friend of mine took on a collie with extreme behaviour. She was an experienced sheepdog handler who also did agility. She worked hard with him for several years only to finally concede defeat and have him PTS. Her life had become shut down by her need to keep him safe and it wasn't fair to either of them. Lovely dog but had so many problems.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I totally see where you are coming from and you have my heartfelt sympathy. A good friend of mine took on a collie with extreme behaviour. She was an experienced sheepdog handler who also did agility. She worked hard with him for several years only to finally concede defeat and have him PTS. Her life had become shut down by her need to keep him safe and it wasn't fair to either of them. Lovely dog but had so many problems.

Thank you EP I appreciate that- As I mentioned in my first post (see quote below) contrary to what some people have assumed, despite me giving full background, I have dealt with problem dogs for others in the past and in particular BCs as I also competed and trained my own. So your friend's experience is very similar to what I am going through this past few months. so frustrating when you cant fix it for your own dog! Fortunately we do have only this one issue to try and deal with, to have other issues going on as well must be a pure nightmare scenario I would think, your poor friend what a difficult decision it must have been for her.

But this dog has me beat, she is as bright and intelligent and quick to learn as any BC ever was, but not when the random prey drive kicks in. Complete new fencing is being sourced this afternoon, new job starts tomorrow morning, fingers crossed! We will probably also go with the Freedom fence as well as a back up if needed. After all that had been tried and tested, the decision will be made one way or the other.

We tried many training methods, bearing in mind I did train collies for competition many years back, and also helping people to retrain dogs that had picked up issues along the way. So I am not a complete numpty with training out problem dogs. This one had me beat and broken hearted at her future safety

 

[TheOldTrout]

I made it up - inasmuchas could one be configured?

Many years ago, I used to know some hunt sabs, they used stuff to put hounds off a fox's scent. Can't remember what (it was a very long time ago), though. Do you know any hunt sabs?

 

[paddy555]

Complete new fencing is being sourced this afternoon, new job starts tomorrow morning, fingers crossed!

good luck. The only way I can see someone could keep this sort of dog is by 100% sold rigid fencing so it is going precisely nowhere. Otherwise there would simply be no peace of mind ever.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Many years ago, I used to know some hunt sabs, they used stuff to put hounds off a fox's scent. Can't remember what (it was a very long time ago), though. Do you know any hunt sabs?

Oddly enough I dont have any hunt sabs in my circle of friends lol! I have some really weird and whacko off the scale friends that I treasure, but not one single hunt sab! ??

 

[gunnergundog]

CC I appreciate what you are saying and yes it is extremely emotive particularly as yesterday morning the decision was taken for me, almost, that if this does not work she will most likely be PTS. I accept that DGD is extremely experienced but I found that post did not show any insight in the circumstances and dog's history and GDG was not willing to reread to get the correct information, and his comment about testing her in game bird pens just about took the biscuit as utterly unhelpful and unrealistic, I cannot even understand why he thought that might be helpful other than to impress on me his/her own superior experience.....this area of Ireland is very low on the type of game bird hunting that would warrant having these type of pens and I am not about to take my dog 300 miles south to the type of hunting country that is more common to GDG experience searching for willing gamekeepers to let her run amok in their game pens!

Whilst last night I had decided to ignore your comments, especially after a PM from CC, I'm afraid that I do now have to come back at you.

In post #51 you say, 'Yes she understands the cues in all situations with distraction as I have stated several times on this thread, UNLESS SHE IS OFF LEAD IN AN OPEN AND UNFENCED AREA, '.

That is why in post #54 I responded, 'As you stated above that you can control her in all circumstance unless off lead in an unfenced area, I assume that you have her under control in a rabbit pen or pheasant pen??' A question to ascertain what training had been done, not advice to throw the dog in the deep end and allow it to run amok as you seem to have taken it.

From your above interpretation of my comment re pens it is clear to me that your understanding of how to train a prey driven gundog, is lacking. No doubt you will take that as yet another attempt on my part to impress you with my superior experience!! You said it up post, not I!!

You need to train in the most boring environment possible with no distractions and then up the ante slowly. That means kitchen, garden, cricket pitch, fenced field, pen with one bird/rabbit, cold game, gamey area but one you have cleared of wildlife with another dog first so there is just scent alone etc etc. Slow, incremental steps.

You say you would need to drive 300 miles south to find country more common to my experience, although I am unclear as to how you know what experience I have, and funnily enough I spent much time around Portadown two years ago where I can think straightaway of at least two people who would be able to help.

But, as someone else said last night via PM, they ain't getting involved with recommendations and neither am I.

 

[maisie06]

thanks maisie06 but please see my previous posts this has been tried without any success. thanks though

I have just read the whole post...I agree containment and if you can't manage that Then PTS is the only viable answer, for your sake and hers, and for any farmers with livestock in the area, don't beat yourself up if you go down this route, yes you could chain her up or kennel her but what life would that be and as you rightly say she is a danger to herself and will leg oit in a second if she gets scent so that makes walks and nightmare rather than a pleasure, she sounds more like a sighthound ot husky than a lab, like you say it's rare though. Good luck with whatever you decide and if you do go down the PTS route you'll probably be very relieved when it's all over.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Many years ago, I used to know some hunt sabs, they used stuff to put hounds off a fox's scent. Can't remember what (it was a very long time ago), though. Do you know any hunt sabs?

I think that hunt sabs use citronella.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

But, as someone else said last night via PM, they ain't getting involved with recommendations and neither am I.

GDG as you have kindly pointed out you, CC, and others have clearly been discussing me via pm, and have decided not to get involved with recommendations then why the heck are you are they bothering to answer today? Why are you even still on my thread if that is your wish??? It might be better if both you, CC and others just keep their nose out of my business and stick to the position you have decided to take via pm really if you think about it?

Perhaps you would relay this message to CC and any other forum members you are discussing me with. I won't thank you for your input because quite frankly, your most recent post and previous ones are of no legitimate help to me whatsoever, and your last post is now bordering on being damn rude.

 

[CorvusCorax]

To clarify, I told GDG that they had given good advice, which I agreed with, and I have said the same on the open forum. FWIW when I had just started posting on the forum, GDG said something that stung me for a long time, but it turned out to be true, in that, I didn't have a strong enough bond with my dog and that's why I had no recall. It isn't nice to contemplate, but it is true. The urge to bugger off/not want to be around me, was stronger than the bond between us and that is something I have to work very hard on. The post was blunt AF but it made me get my backside in gear.

I don't give recommendations to anyone any more, because if it doesn't work out for whatever reason, it always comes back to bite whoever did the recommending and you have since said that you are not interested in an external trainer anyway.

Other users PM me about their/my/others dogs and I do the same if someone has more experience in a certain field than I do, because I want to help others, the way I was helped and am probably guilty of getting over-involved in other people's dogs, both here and off the forum, and I clearly need to stop doing that, no one is lying awake at night thinking of solutions for me and my dogs.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

For the attention of CC and any others discussing me and my problem with this dog, you are of course free to talk about other members via pm as much as you choose. But if you take the joint decision not to get involved with the thread, then please stick to that.

Or take your self righteous opinions and keep them to pm if you don't have the schutzpa to post them directly on the thread, but instead choose the usual H&H go to method for some members to entertain yourselves privately at my expense.

 

[CorvusCorax]

For the attention of CC and any others discussing me and my problem with this dog, you are of course free to talk about other members via pm as much as you choose. But if you take the joint decision not to get involved with the thread, then please stick to that.

Or take your self righteous opinions and keep them to pm if you don't have the schutzpa to post them directly on the thread, but instead choose the usual H&H go to method for some members to entertain yourselves privately at my expense.

I have posted above explaining my position. It's about the dog(s).