Please tell me why the obsession with barefoot?

[cptrayes]

Yes, over the years, I have liveried horses over 8 counties and in a greater number of yards and farms. Yes, I have had to deal with horses' feeling footie, but its not rocket science, reduce the time at grass during peak hours and work them steadily on a soft surface to increase fitness/metabolism and balance calorie input/output. Pretty basic stuff.

So you dealt with footieness by restricting grass, increasing the work and avoiding difficult surfaces. It's a strategy which works, but why do you call it "faffing about" (which I don't read as a compliment ) when we adjust mineral balances and keep the ability to work on difficult surfaces at the same level of fitness instead?

Never heard of mineral balancing with homemade concoctions until I heard about it on here. Still not sure how it works if horses rotate between different pasture through the year and graze during extremes of wet and dry weather.

The first I heard of it was from a co-founder of the UKNHCP who discovered that her land was heavily contaminated with manganese. It has been a total eye-opener for many of us who have had some of the more sensitive horses. I consider the understanding of the sensitivity of some horses to mineral balance to be one of the greatest breakthroughs that the barefoot movement has made.

I can tell you how "over"-dosing copper for iron and manganese overload works if you are interested.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Was that me? NOPE

I have always accepted that some horses need shoes and I'm at a loss to understand why you seem to word your posts to me as if I am aggressively telling people that they don't need to shoe their horses.

I'm sorry.
I don't actually think that all at. I think these days you are not all aggressive and your posts are reasonable and thoughtful.
However, you are intelligent and well able to debate and perhaps that's why I tend to pick up on your posts. You must have missed the posts where I've agreed with you.

Take it as a slightly annoying compliment, the more uninformed and intolerant BF posters aren't worth commenting on.

 

[cptrayes]

I'm sorry.
I don't actually think that all at. I think these days you are not all aggressive and your posts are reasonable and thoughtful.
However, you are intelligent and well able to debate and perhaps that's why I tend to pick up on your posts. You must have missed the posts where I've agreed with you.

Take it as a slightly annoying compliment, the more uninformed and intolerant BF posters aren't worth commenting on.

Ta, you've made me smile now

 

[MerrySherryRider]

That's a first for me then.

Normal play will resume tomorrow.

 

[tallyho!]

I accept that some owners shoe without thinking, but some of the extreme and intolerant posts from barefooters have been difficult to swallow.

I recall a post some time ago, from someone with 5 horses, who worked full time and competed 3 of them. Desperately worried about one of them and looking for help, she was given advice that would have taken her so long each evening, in the dark, that it would have been at the expense of her other horses. She wanted to comply but it was unrealistic and instead of the barefooters moderating their plan, she was rudely and aggressively told that she shouldn't have 5 horses if she couldn't care for them and should get rid of them. Helpful ? Nope. Demoralising and unkind ? Yep.

I doubt I could find that post, but it was typical during that period of the incredibly aggressive, holier than thou attitude of the BF, thankfully, the tone has become generally more reasonable in recent times, but it was due to my shock and sense of injustice at the treatment of a caring and desperate poster that prompted me to challenge such extremist views.

I can't quote what you wrote in blue in reply to cpt, however I just wanted to say that the way you word your posts, usually in disgust to some barefooters makes you seem extremist in your views too.

Just because you have had experience with lots of horses, with good conformation, good pasture, good management and not had to "faff" does not mean that it is automatically the case for everyone... And that those who have not had your experience in life and have had to "faff" are beneath you.

I don't remember the post you are talking about but as far as I have known the barefooters on here, they have always been more than helpful and sympathetic.

You have never shared any of your experiences as far as I can remember, and from the discourse we have exchanged in the past, you have only criticised. Why does that make you less extremist than anyone else?

There are a few on here with unshod horses working well yet they do not share anything, the only comments have been negative ones about barefoot.

There are two sides to this debate when it comes to the extremes. Just thought I'd say

 

[Mongoose11]

To be honest I am unsure why 'the days of the aggressive Barefoot Movement' keep getting mentioned over and over again. The BT don't operate in that way now (if they ever did.... it may well have been down to interpretation and level of emotional involvement) so I am not sure why it gets harped on about over and over. Perhaps it is time to move on? If your defense has to call upon actions of the distant past then it probably isn't a notable defense

 

[tallyho!]

Quite true billie blitzen and I do think the emotionally charged ones (guilty as charged) did come across that way... from both sides. Really my bone of contention was always the aggressive and incessant name-calling (not necessarily towards me but the bft in general) but agree that bygones should be bygones so I will now shut up and go away

 

[Oberon]

WARNING - POSTING WHILE A BIT TIPSY.....

I agree with horserider that barefoot people can come across as holier than thou sometimes. Not so much on here - but across the internet as a whole.

I am a member of a few Yahoo groups and one in particular has a barefoot focus (mainly US based). I was recently treated to a lovely lecture about the evils of stabling my horses at all and other aspects of my husbandry when I asked a question about pea gravel. I was made to feel belittled and it made me rather angry to be spoken to so.....my response was that in the absence of 20 acres of my own land, I have to use a livery yard and that means making compromises.......

You find a lot of new barefooters can be very excited by the concept and thus evangelical.
But when you've been around long enough - you get a broader perspective on what can and cannot be done....and sometimes shoes are just the best option all round.

I personally don't have an emotional investment in people shoeing their horse or not, but I would beg owners to stop blaming the horse, the weather or genetics for all hoof related problems and look at the feed, the management and the shoes before giving up and accepting unhealthy hooves.
Challenge any professionals who blame the horse, the weather or genetics when faced with sick hooves and offer no other alternatives.

I would wish for people to please keep the hooves as healthy as possible - shod or not.

We should NOT still be losing young horses to behavioural problems, tendon/ligament problems, joint problems, back problems, navicular, laminitis etc etc in this country. We have the best trained farriers in the world and we have everything at our disposal - so WHY is this still happening?

Hoof problems don't just affect the hooves....the whole body is under attack when the foundation is broken.

And the answer to this is always heartbars or Imprints

It breaks my heart that we are losing horses needlessly. Often by the time an owner posts on here in desperation - it's too little, too late and the damage to the horse from years of poor hooves is catastrophic

Prevention is better than cure.

 

[Queenbee]

That crack probably did not start that way but a thrush infection that has become increasingly deep seated.

Lowering the heels would only change the angle the coffin bone sits but will probably cause lameness as the change will pull on weak tendons and ligaments. Possibly even causing more lameness as the hoof wall is actually contracted around all the inner structures - squashing it all. It would not get rid of the infection either as the shoes will still clamp the heel bulbs together as you see it now.

The only way to remedy the contraction, is to remove the clamp, and rehabilitate the caudal hoof structure very gradually and treat the infection as the cleft "unfolds".

Basically, that hoof needs a break from shoes. Desperately.

Here, you can see a contracted heel "unfold"... not as severe as the photo you saw. P.S. took 5 months.

Really useful to see the timeline and progress in photos, wasn't there a photo on here the other day from a poster who's horse had amazingly contracted heels?

 

[tallyho!]

Really useful to see the timeline and progress in photos, wasn't there a photo on here the other day from a poster who's horse had amazingly contracted heels?

Yes, Kat I think it was. She asked about heartbars.

 

[debsg]

So you don't ride or handle your horses at all and they are free to roam just like they would in the wild too?

I don't think its necessary if horses are not in work or in light work with no roads. But I do personally think its a fashion thing at the moment, that and shoes are expensive and people want to save money.

Haven't read all the replies, just wanted to say that I have three horses,
(1 cob, 1 TB, 1 PBA), all living out (cos they're happier, not cos it's cheaper )
and all barefoot (cos they all have good feet and don't need shoes)
All three are in work, hack at least three times a week (on the roads! And on flinty tracks, tarmac with stone chippings on top, cindery type surfaces) and are 100% sound all year round (ok, so I'm very lucky )
In the summer we hack out for the day, 7+ hours and I also do endurance with the PBA, and
numerous disciplines with the other two, including jumping and x country at 1.05m with the cob (no studs!)
I couldn't give a toss about 'fashion' ( I'm 53 FFS!) am lucky enough to have an exceptional farrier who does a stunning barefoot trim and charges £25 per horse.
As for 'saving money' - why would anyone wish to spend unnecessarily? I work full time to support my horses and they get everything they need - but they certainly have no 'need' for shoes!

 

[cptrayes]

WARNING - POSTING WHILE A BIT TIPSY.....

SezOberon it was FIVE SIXTEEN when you posted - tipsy????


And you a healthcare professional working for the pohlease too

 

[tallyho!]

Yes, Kat I think it was. She asked about heartbars.

Oh what am I like... No sorry that's wrong. It was noonoo59...

Sorry... Baby brain.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

WARNING - POSTING WHILE A BIT TIPSY.....

I agree with horserider that barefoot people can come across as holier than thou sometimes. Not so much on here - but across the internet as a whole.

I am a member of a few Yahoo groups and one in particular has a barefoot focus (mainly US based). I was recently treated to a lovely lecture about the evils of stabling my horses at all and other aspects of my husbandry when I asked a question about pea gravel. I was made to feel belittled and it made me rather angry to be spoken to so.....my response was that in the absence of 20 acres of my own land, I have to use a livery yard and that means making compromises.......

You find a lot of new barefooters can be very excited by the concept and thus evangelical.
But when you've been around long enough - you get a broader perspective on what can and cannot be done....and sometimes shoes are just the best option all round.

I personally don't have an emotional investment in people shoeing their horse or not, but I would beg owners to stop blaming the horse, the weather or genetics for all hoof related problems and look at the feed, the management and the shoes before giving up and accepting unhealthy hooves.
Challenge any professionals who blame the horse, the weather or genetics when faced with sick hooves and offer no other alternatives.

I would wish for people to please keep the hooves as healthy as possible - shod or not.

We should NOT still be losing young horses to behavioural problems, tendon/ligament problems, joint problems, back problems, navicular, laminitis etc etc in this country. We have the best trained farriers in the world and we have everything at our disposal - so WHY is this still happening?

Hoof problems don't just affect the hooves....the whole body is under attack when the foundation is broken.

And the answer to this is always heartbars or Imprints

It breaks my heart that we are losing horses needlessly. Often by the time an owner posts on here in desperation - it's too little, too late and the damage to the horse from years of poor hooves is catastrophic

Prevention is better than cure.

Good post, agree with you. For what its worth, it is much less antagonistic than it was, particularly amongst the old guard.

 

[mulberrymill]

I have 8 all unshod and except for 1 have never been shod. They all work, roads tracks etc, never lame, good feet and due to the amount of concrete in my stables and yard mainly self trim. If its not broken then why fix it, if they needed shoes they would have them.

 

[NooNoo59]

It was me, but i did not have a question about heartbars, that was someone else. But my horse did have contracted heels and has had his shoes off today, so i am awaiting advice about diet and the best boots to buy! If my horse becomes sound it will be because of this forum because this was the first place that i read about 'barefoot' and read threads about peoples experiences and advice, not 'obsessive' advice just people sharing what had happened to them which helped me make my own decision, and surely that is what this forum is for - help support advice bit of fun somewhere to bounce ideas around and get other peoples take on things. I have been around horses for 40 years but you never stop learning and the day that you think you know it all and are not interested in looking at things from all points of view is the day you might as well give up because nobody will never know everything about every horse - bit like bringing up children really.

 

[NooNoo59]

Oh and Oberon why are you drunk at five o clock in the afternoon you lucky thing!

 

[Oberon]

Day off - no horses, no work and teenager on a school trip.

I hit the bottle at 16.00

Finished the bottle by 18.00.

Now it's 23.40 and I'm sober

 

[Kat]

@tallyho! It was me asking about heartbars but I'm not the one with the contracted heels. Mine has been bare for 14wks now

 

[tallyho!]

It was me, but i did not have a question about heartbars, that was someone else. But my horse did have contracted heels and has had his shoes off today, so i am awaiting advice about diet and the best boots to buy! If my horse becomes sound it will be because of this forum because this was the first place that i read about 'barefoot' and read threads about peoples experiences and advice, not 'obsessive' advice just people sharing what had happened to them which helped me make my own decision, and surely that is what this forum is for - help support advice bit of fun somewhere to bounce ideas around and get other peoples take on things. I have been around horses for 40 years but you never stop learning and the day that you think you know it all and are not interested in looking at things from all points of view is the day you might as well give up because nobody will never know everything about every horse - bit like bringing up children really.

@tallyho! It was me asking about heartbars but I'm not the one with the contracted heels. Mine has been bare for 14wks now

Oh what am I like... No sorry that's wrong. It was noonoo59...

Sorry... Baby brain.

Thanks guys, sorry about that. As you can see above, I did apologise. I often get it wrong

 

[BeesKnees]

Yes, I have had to deal with horses' feeling footie, but its not rocket science, reduce the time at grass during peak hours and work them steadily on a soft surface to increase fitness/metabolism and balance calorie input/output. Pretty basic stuff.

But don't you think many people would see even this level of management of barefoot as faffing? Many who shoe would refuse to accept that restricting grass is necessary, and is all part of the BF obsession with fashion over good standard horsecare?!

Certainly it would be beyond the knowledge of many, as seen by so many posts, to know when you manage grass, what surfaces to use to promote hoof rehab etc etc.

So perhaps you more obsessive and taffy than you thought?

 

[MerrySherryRider]

But don't you think many people would see even this level of management of barefoot as faffing? Many who shoe would refuse to accept that restricting grass is necessary, and is all part of the BF obsession with fashion over good standard horsecare?!

Certainly it would be beyond the knowledge of many, as seen by so many posts, to know when you manage grass, what surfaces to use to promote hoof rehab etc etc.

So perhaps you more obsessive and taffy than you thought?

Now I wouldn't have thought horse management as basic as this, was difficult or time consuming.

If this is beyond the 'knowledge of many' then, prophylactic horse management is also beyond the scope of many. No wonder vets are rich.

BTW, I don't do hoof rehab. There's nothing to rehab, a bit of sensitivity is hardly a rehab job. Its just another part of fundamental management and no different to deciding whether to rug or not, apply fly spray or prevent sun burn on a particular day.

 

[tallyho!]

Now I wouldn't have thought horse management as basic as this, was difficult or time consuming.

If this is beyond the 'knowledge of many' then, prophylactic horse management is also beyond the scope of many. No wonder vets are rich.

BTW, I don't do hoof rehab. There's nothing to rehab, a bit of sensitivity is hardly a rehab job. Its just another part of fundamental management and no different to deciding whether to rug or not, apply fly spray or prevent sun burn on a particular day.

*Applauds*

Welcome back horserider

Thought someone had nicked your profile...

 

[Faro]

Haven't read the full thread, so am simply answering the original poster's question.

I have 5 horses, none with shoes.

One of them is a retired broodmare - never been ridden, never been shod.
No. 2 is a (currently barren) broodmare - never been ridden, never been shod.

My 3 boys all work. I've had them since foals/yearlings. When they got to an age when they were started in work I thought to myself "I'm not going to put shoes on them just yet, simply because it's the "done" thing - I'll have them shod as and when they need it".

To this day, none of them have required shoes. They are 13, 13 and 11 respectively and two of them compete at advanced level endurance (not even booted!) and have never been vetted out lame.

I'm not obsessed with barefoot - but over the years have become fimrly convinced that it's the best way.

Enough said.

 

[BeesKnees]

Now I wouldn't have thought horse management as basic as this, was difficult or time consuming.

If this is beyond the 'knowledge of many' then, prophylactic horse management is also beyond the scope of many. No wonder vets are rich.

Basic management to you maybe, but not to the reams of others who would question the need to "limit grass during peak hours", and see it as faffy BF nonsense (unless dealing with lami). In response to such footyness, how many people on here would advise shoeing? Quite a lot judging from all the threads.

But you don't shoe. You manage the soreness with the knowledge you have gained about causes (grass sugars) and treatment (exercise to manage metabolism).

My point is that I think it is disingenuous of you to suggest you do nothing in particular to manage your horses BF.

 

[Littlelegs]

I do entirely see horseriders point though. My mare was shod for years simply cos it was the done thing, until current farrier suggested leaving them off as she doesn't need them. Apart from being careful where she put her feet on very stoney ground for a brief time, there were no problems & no changes in management. But, as a good doer who has ample energy, she has always had a simple diet aimed at managing her weight & avoiding fizziness. Low quality, rough grazing & forage, & the minimum of hard feed when hard work required it. So whilst I wasn't feeding at all for barefoot, her entire life she has had a diet that basically does the same job.
I also suspect that's why natives & cobs in general manage barefoot very easily. Anyone with half a brain tends to feed a non rich diet anyway to avoid weight issues & laminitis so they are already managing the horse in a manner that suits barefoot, same as I was. Whereas a poor doer tb people are more likely to feed richer forage & molassed hard feed.

 

[potto]

Ummm haven't had time to read whole thread, but loads of great stuff in there as a current half shodder myself. who has dabbled in barefoot on occasion I have to say i do not think of bare foot as a cheap option.

If you have the right set up environment, management and lifestyle wise maybe but otherwise it can be expensive...and demoralising and a never ending cycle of being a carer to your horsey patient, while dreaming of perfection and watching everyone else ride past.

This may change with ongoing research, education and livery structures and styles or managing horse care in the future who knows plus the development of better hoof boots.

On the other hand horse shoes again a sometimes necessary evil, also cause damage long`term to horses hooves that they are trying to protect but during this time how much fun, confidence and life experience can you and your horse be building together and sharing that would of been missed had your horse been unable to work at that level??? hmmm tricky...

Are we knowledgeable enough to know when our horses hooves need a break from shoes and how long they need to be off for before putting back on or managing both depending what our horses tell us and the environments we find ourselves managing our equines in?

It is all so complicated, but what i do know is that we are all time bombs and life is very short.. we all want the best for our friends and do what we feel is right with what we have, what we know and can afford.. so until we know more these are the choices we have. bare foot, shod or a combination of both....

 

[tallyho!]

Basic management to you maybe, but not to the reams of others who would question the need to "limit grass during peak hours", and see it as faffy BF nonsense (unless dealing with lami). In response to such footyness, how many people on here would advise shoeing? Quite a lot judging from all the threads.

But you don't shoe. You manage the soreness with the knowledge you have gained about causes (grass sugars) and treatment (exercise to manage metabolism).

My point is that I think it is disingenuous of you to suggest you do nothing in particular to manage your horses BF.

In HR's eyes, unless you we born on a horse with the full manuscript of horsecare and a vet degree microchipped into your circuitry then, you shouldn't have one.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Tallyho. That's a rather silly accusation. Are you of the opinion that most horse owners are unaware how to take steps to prevent laminitis or a host of other common conditions specific to horses. Perhaps you have a low opinion of horse owners. I don't.

 

[tallyho!]

LOL!!! HR... I think if you read your posts to yourself you may find that YOU are the one with a low opinion of other horse owners.