"POA" - sellers - why not just say what the price is?

[Andiamo]

Sorry, just a rant here about sellers of horses...

I'm looking at dressage horse ads, and so many of them put POA, instead of providing a price for the horse. I find it counter-productive. I would prefer just to see the price of the horse to know immediately if I can afford it, before I make a call to the seller to find out more about it, thereby potentially wasting their time and mine.

One particular prominent seller has written POA on all their ads, and also has written "no time wasters or dreamers". So, I am nervous about asking the price of a horse, because if it's way over my budget, then I'm for sure going to be a timewaster in their eyes. For example, I enquired about a 4 yr old baby, and was told it is £28K. ... at least I have a good taste

....then they asked me my budget. Well, I'm not happy giving that out, because suddenly horses can go up in price according to a potential buyer's budget. Why can't sellers just say it like it is, and state the price, in order to filter out the people who would not be able to afford it? I suggested to them in an email, that it would be very helpful if they would provide "price bands" for their horses on their website, and give each horse a rating, so at least buyers know the sort of range it's in, and whether it's worth picking up the phone or not.

Also, I'll call a private seller, and they'll waffle on for almost an hour about every tiny irrelevant detail, and leave me unable to get a word in edgewise, and unable to ask pertinent questions. By the time they take a breath and stop talking, I've lost the will to live, and just want to get off the phone, and I still haven't found out if the horse is sane, sound, if it's been out competing, why are they selling it etc.

Sellers - if you want to sell a horse - please be direct, honest, to the point, state the price in the ad, and allow the enquirer to ask you questions and speak on the phone! If this is not something you feel comfortable with, maybe let a trainer that knows the horse take the phone calls?

Rant over!!!

 

[Ali16]

Lol, *breathe*

FWIW I do agree with everything you have said, but we recently had a sales livery in where the owner actually requested that we put POA on the ad, so that their friends didn't know how much the horse was selling for. I personally have never called up about a POA horse, thinking that it would probably be more expensive than my teeny tiny budget allowed for

And I never understand why sellers feel the need to babble on about irrelevant details... Let the buyer do the talking & try to answer in plain English

 

[tinap]

Oh it drives me nuts too! I'd much rather know something is £50k before I ring up & look a tit with my £5k budget

 

[SpruceRI]

I totally agree!

I've phoned up about several horses over the years with the POA in the advert.... and the seller and I have hedged around the price for sale/money available. They are probably hoping I've got more money to spend than they meant to ask for and I wouldn't say because usually I didn't have much money!

One call we eventually got to a price, I viewed the horse, like it, had it vetted and it failed and that was that.

The rest of them, we did our little 'telephone dance' and I usually gave up and rang off!

 

[JennyNZ]

I actually read it as "seller is in LaLa land"

The other ones I don't bother with are the ones that say "no time wasters etc". Define a "time waster" - if I contact you with a question, but then decide I don't want to take it any further, is that me?

I know selling horses can be a case of grit your teeth and smile, but I do sometimes wonder how badly some actually want to sell the horse.

 

[maccachic]

I just saw the funniest one yesterday "if you not prepared to cough up the dough don't enquire" for an over priced horse LOL

 

[dollymix]

I agree with this, especially the ones who also put "no time wasters or dreamers"....

Seller has made potential buyers dreamers because unless they are fantastic at guessing, what else can you do?

Plus if you call to ask a price you are labelled a time waster. Actually seller, YOU are wasting my time as I could have counted or discounted your horse as a possibility immediately if I knew what price the horse was!!!

 

[Ferdinase514]

I agree re privacy on selling price, particulatly once you get to £20k +

 

[natalia]

I don't price all mine up, purely because as they do more they are worth more and it looks worse changing the price all the time. I have a very nice cob at the moment who it top class, but am surprised at the ammount of people who ring up thinking 4k will buy him! (He's a POA horse as most people who want something like this won't want to disclose how much they paid for it).

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Just been looking at a lwvtb (have been bitten hard on last purchase) and whilst all is tickety-boo with owner, equine etc, the owner still doesn't 'know' what to put as selling price.
So am currently at stalemate as will not agree to take until ££'s are firmed up....

Agree with others for special horses if into 5 figures or therabouts that POA is fine tho

 

[Ali16]

I don't price all mine up, purely because as they do more they are worth more and it looks worse changing the price all the time. I have a very nice cob at the moment who it top class, but am surprised at the ammount of people who ring up thinking 4k will buy him! (He's a POA horse as most people who want something like this won't want to disclose how much they paid for it).

I'm not being narky here, so please don't be offended, but if you get lots of people calling up wanting to pay £4k for a quality horse, why not just put the price on? It saves time & effort on both sides....

We try to be as transparent as possible when selling horses, so unless the client SPECIFICALLY requests it, I always tend to put the price on, regardless of whether the horse is £2k or £40k+ (we sell these & everything in between).

 

[castella]

As soon as I see POA I assume its going to be a crazy price so would never call a POA advert.

 

[Dry Rot]

There was a similar thread on here not long ago. The question is not as simple as it sounds so I'm afraid this will be long!

I am a small breeder and increasingly do more with the (few) ponies I sell because I enjoy it and it adds value. I've an interest in the future of what I produce. Mine is a hobby rather than a business but I still have try to pay my way!

OK, I advertise a young horse which shows great promise as an eventer for £3,000. Miss X turns up with cheque book in hand, willing to pay the price, but she just wants a happy hacker as she is a novice and has no ambitions to do more. The truth is, the horse is obviously too much for what she wants but she wants him anyway.

Miss Y, on the other hand, is looking for an eventer and, if sucessful, her wins will be a good advertisement for my stud. She is also a good rider and is completely in sympathy with the horse. However, she, Miss Y, can't afford £3,000. If I had stated the price in an advertisement, she might well have passed by.

Should I sell Miss X a horse which is really too much for her just because she has the money?

There is a third buyer, Miss Z, who is so keen on the horse that she even offers £3,500 but she roughly handles the horse when she tries it and it is clearly a mismatch. She is rude, late, and critical -- but arrives in Daddy's Porsche and if pushed might even pay more.

I would suggest that the wise seller who has feelings for what they are selling rather than considering it purely in business terms will hold back on price and wait to see who wants to buy. The serious buyer, on the other hand, will have done some research and know what the market price for such a horse will be. If the horse suits them in every respect, they might even be prepared to bargain for a higher than market price because this one is "special".

For those who think more along the lines of "what I can afford", I suggest you do your research and speak to the owner and ask if they would be prepared to negotiate around that figure. Deals are done on that basis every day. To those just wanting a cheap horse, I say please don't waste my time. If the horse you would like to buy isn't worth the time and expense of a phone call, I am not sure I want to sell to you anyway!

I recently sold an old but perfectly fit pony for £3 (three pounds). She was never advertised and was worth a lot more. Why? Because she went to the perfect home where she will be loved and cared for. Yes, I could probably have got £500, even £1,000, for her (she still does everything and is the perfect child's pony), but would she have got such a good home?

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

I think if a horse is say over £10k then POA is fine as buyers clearly have enough dosh not to be worried by it.

Under that I would think the banding system would work well, giving flexibility to sellers but also some clue to buyers!

I too would never contact a POA advert. The problem with saying a seller might want to let it go for less to a perfect home is that most of those perfect home (of which hopefully I am one) will NOT reply to POA adverts. The arrogant and uncaring types will!

 

[Ali16]

There was a similar thread on here not long ago. The question is not as simple as it sounds so I'm afraid this will be long!

I am a small breeder and increasingly do more with the (few) ponies I sell because I enjoy it and it adds value. I've an interest in the future of what I produce. Mine is a hobby rather than a business but I still have try to pay my way!

OK, I advertise a young horse which shows great promise as an eventer for £3,000. Miss X turns up with cheque book in hand, willing to pay the price, but she just wants a happy hacker as she is a novice and has no ambitions to do more. The truth is, the horse is obviously too much for what she wants but she wants him anyway.

Miss Y, on the other hand, is looking for an eventer and, if sucessful, her wins will be a good advertisement for my stud. She is also a good rider and is completely in sympathy with the horse. However, she, Miss Y, can't afford £3,000. If I had stated the price in an advertisement, she might well have passed by.

Should I sell Miss X a horse which is really too much for her just because she has the money?

There is a third buyer, Miss Z, who is so keen on the horse that she even offers £3,500 but she roughly handles the horse when she tries it and it is clearly a mismatch. She is rude, late, and critical -- but arrives in Daddy's Porsche and if pushed might even pay more.

I would suggest that the wise seller who has feelings for what they are selling rather than considering it purely in business terms will hold back on price and wait to see who wants to buy. The serious buyer, on the other hand, will have done some research and know what the market price for such a horse will be. If the horse suits them in every respect, they might even be prepared to bargain for a higher than market price because this one is "special".

For those who think more along the lines of "what I can afford", I suggest you do your research and speak to the owner and ask if they would be prepared to negotiate around that figure. Deals are done on that basis every day. To those just wanting a cheap horse, I say please don't waste my time. If the horse you would like to buy isn't worth the time and expense of a phone call, I am not sure I want to sell to you anyway!

I recently sold an old but perfectly fit pony for £3 (three pounds). She was never advertised and was worth a lot more. Why? Because she went to the perfect home where she will be loved and cared for. Yes, I could probably have got £500, even £1,000, for her (she still does everything and is the perfect child's pony), but would she have got such a good home?

I completely appreciate what you are saying, but if Miss X or Miss Z turned up here wanting the same horse, we wouldn't sell it to them. Issues would probably crop up further down the line for Miss X as she probably does not have the experience to cope with said horse, & Miss Z can just take a hike! No way would we sell to someone who doesn't care for the horse. But chances are, there are other horses that would suit Miss Y, within her budget & I would be happy to wait a bit longer (as we always tell our clients) for the right person to come along with the right amount of money... Miss A if you like. So, even in these circumstances, we would always put the price on, then if Miss A does come along & makes an offer, we can go from there.

 

[perfect11s]

POA means there will be a rogue ,chancer or idiot on the other end of the line , it's almost allways for a dubious reason like dealers selling on commision so the owner dosent find out what the true price is or things they could buy in if they find a buyer, or a seller that hopes they can talk someone into paying over the odds. I always move on to a genuine seller with prices! no one would go to a supermarket without prices why would you do the same looking for a lorry ,horse etc...

 

[Ferdinase514]

I think a lot of buyers dislike poa as they are lacking the confidence as purchasers to call and ask the price. So what if its out of your price range? Just say thanks but not for me.

 

[Goldenstar]

I agree with this, especially the ones who also put "no time wasters or dreamers"....

Seller has made potential buyers dreamers because unless they are fantastic at guessing, what else can you do?

Plus if you call to ask a price you are labelled a time waster. Actually seller, YOU are wasting my time as I could have counted or discounted your horse as a possibility immediately if I knew what price the horse was!!!

If I see the time waster and dreamer thing I won't call full stop. For POA I think think they will suss out who I am or see my car they will try to double the price so I don't bother ringing
To me if a seller can't start by saying the price is X they are going to be a night mare and there are always other horses.
I don't mind dealer / producers who put the horses in price bands that quite a good way when a young horse is in work and will be increasing in value .

 

[perfect11s]

I think a lot of buyers dislike poa as they are lacking the confidence as purchasers to call and ask the price. So what if its out of your price range? Just say thanks but not for me.

depends if you want to waste your life talking to these people you arent going to get to the price untill you have played a silly question and answer game !!!been there and not playing anymore, sorry if you're looking for a bargain the auction is a million times better odds

 

[trendybraincell]

I would use to say I'd never contact a POA advert but my little one was advertised as POA.

I really liked him from the advert but didn't want to go see him if he was out of my price range as thats what I would consider time wasting. Phoning up to ask questions is just sensible

I was upfront with breeder/seller about what I was after likewise she told me the sort of figure she had in mind. I had done a lot of research before hand so hoped the figure I had in mind was about right given his breeding, temperament etc I was lucky I was spot on, there was some negotiation but I'm SO pleased I was brave enough to call a POA ad as he is a very special chap!

 

[Andiamo]

That's hilarious! Who would actually ring up about that?!!

I just saw the funniest one yesterday "if you not prepared to cough up the dough don't enquire" for an over priced horse LOL

 

[Goldenstar]

There was a similar thread on here not long ago. The question is not as simple as it sounds so I'm afraid this will be long!

I am a small breeder and increasingly do more with the (few) ponies I sell because I enjoy it and it adds value. I've an interest in the future of what I produce. Mine is a hobby rather than a business but I still have try to pay my way!

OK, I advertise a young horse which shows great promise as an eventer for £3,000. Miss X turns up with cheque book in hand, willing to pay the price, but she just wants a happy hacker as she is a novice and has no ambitions to do more. The truth is, the horse is obviously too much for what she wants but she wants him anyway.U

Miss Y, on the other hand, is looking for an eventer and, if sucessful, her wins will be a good advertisement for my stud. She is also a good rider and is completely in sympathy with the horse. However, she, Miss Y, can't afford £3,000. If I had stated the price in an advertisement, she might well have passed by.

Should I sell Miss X a horse which is really too much for her just because she has the money?

There is a third buyer, Miss Z, who is so keen on the horse that she even offers £3,500 but she roughly handles the horse when she tries it and it is clearly a mismatch. She is rude, late, and critical -- but arrives in Daddy's Porsche and if pushed might even pay more.

I would suggest that the wise seller who has feelings for what they are selling rather than considering it purely in business terms will hold back on price and wait to see who wants to buy. The serious buyer, on the other hand, will have done some research and know what the market price for such a horse will be. If the horse suits them in every respect, they might even be prepared to bargain for a higher than market price because this one is "special".

For those who think more along the lines of "what I can afford", I suggest you do your research and speak to the owner and ask if they would be prepared to negotiate around that figure. Deals are done on that basis every day. To those just wanting a cheap horse, I say please don't waste my time. If the horse you would like to buy isn't worth the time and expense of a phone call, I am not sure I want to sell to you anyway!

I recently sold an old but perfectly fit pony for £3 (three pounds). She was never advertised and was worth a lot more. Why? Because she went to the perfect home where she will be loved and cared for. Yes, I could probably have got £500, even £1,000, for her (she still does everything and is the perfect child's pony), but would she have got such a good home?

Personally in the example you give I don't think your ability to sell your horse to the right person would be any way affected by advertising it with a price on the advertisement if you are prepared to negiogate the price a bit to the right person just offers in the region of x on the ad.
I don't understand the relevance of the pony story to the thread at all.

 

[Puffin]

Anything in life is only worth what someone will pay for it.

The issue comes when theres a mismatch between the seller's and buyer's expectations.

Doing your research only goes so far, horses are individuals, its not like buying a car, and they have a lot to do with personal taste.

I really hate PoA ads, and fwiw I wouldn't ring about PoA, ever, even if I actually had a fairly hefty sum to spend on a horse, for all the reasons people have said, so the seller might actually lose out.

 

[Andiamo]

It sounds like you clearly have your heart invested in your breeding, which is really lovely to hear

With all due respect, here are some points on what you're saying:

• 1) the car in which the buyer drives up in can influence the selling price. This is true. I know someone, who is well-to-do, drives a lush car...they wanted to go view a horse at a major seller's place. This person borrowed a wreck of a car to go to the viewing, and got a massive deal in the negotiations on this horse, bec. he said he was broke and couldn't afford it. Well, it was the deal of the century, this horse is now winning at PSG. If he had gone in his usual car, he would would have paid a whole lot more for this horse (he knew the actual asking price due to knowing people at the yard where the horse was kept). Therefore, the buyer's car does impact sale price when sale price is unknown.
  
• 2) "The serious buyer, on the other hand, will have done some research and know what the market price for such a horse will be."
• - this is incorrect - how should a buyer tell from a photo and a basic 4 line description what the price for this horse should be? If you put the price on the ad, you rule people in / you rule people out / and you attract the people who can afford the horse. If you're willing to negotiate the price, then put ONO after the price, so you don't rule out the devoted & talented poor people
  
• 3)- "they might even be prepared to bargain for a higher than market price because this one is "special"
• - I always think, if I buy at this price, and then had to sell it tomorrow, would I get the price I paid? If the answer is no, and it always is, then the price is too high, and the price is being artificially inflated - perhaps because a "pro" has sat on it for 2 weeks, or because the seller has high hopes.
  
• 4)"If the horse you would like to buy isn't worth the time and expense of a phone call, I am not sure I want to sell to you anyway! " -
• - as you can see on here, most people would not phone about a POA horse. Especially when disparaging comments are included in the ad: "no timewasters". There is also the embarrassment / humiliation / awkwardness of finding out the horse is WAY more than you could ever have expected. It puts people off. It's embarrassing for some people to have to say "I'm sorry, I cannot afford that".
  
• 5) I am glad to hear you found a home for the old pony, and accepted £3 for her, that's super that she's gone to a lovely home.

There was a similar thread on here not long ago. The question is not as simple as it sounds so I'm afraid this will be long!

I am a small breeder and increasingly do more with the (few) ponies I sell because I enjoy it and it adds value. I've an interest in the future of what I produce. Mine is a hobby rather than a business but I still have try to pay my way!

OK, I advertise a young horse which shows great promise as an eventer for £3,000. Miss X turns up with cheque book in hand, willing to pay the price, but she just wants a happy hacker as she is a novice and has no ambitions to do more. The truth is, the horse is obviously too much for what she wants but she wants him anyway.

Miss Y, on the other hand, is looking for an eventer and, if sucessful, her wins will be a good advertisement for my stud. She is also a good rider and is completely in sympathy with the horse. However, she, Miss Y, can't afford £3,000. If I had stated the price in an advertisement, she might well have passed by.

Should I sell Miss X a horse which is really too much for her just because she has the money?

There is a third buyer, Miss Z, who is so keen on the horse that she even offers £3,500 but she roughly handles the horse when she tries it and it is clearly a mismatch. She is rude, late, and critical -- but arrives in Daddy's Porsche and if pushed might even pay more.

I would suggest that the wise seller who has feelings for what they are selling rather than considering it purely in business terms will hold back on price and wait to see who wants to buy. The serious buyer, on the other hand, will have done some research and know what the market price for such a horse will be. If the horse suits them in every respect, they might even be prepared to bargain for a higher than market price because this one is "special".

For those who think more along the lines of "what I can afford", I suggest you do your research and speak to the owner and ask if they would be prepared to negotiate around that figure. Deals are done on that basis every day. To those just wanting a cheap horse, I say please don't waste my time. If the horse you would like to buy isn't worth the time and expense of a phone call, I am not sure I want to sell to you anyway!

I recently sold an old but perfectly fit pony for £3 (three pounds). She was never advertised and was worth a lot more. Why? Because she went to the perfect home where she will be loved and cared for. Yes, I could probably have got £500, even £1,000, for her (she still does everything and is the perfect child's pony), but would she have got such a good home?

 

[BeckyD]

I don't think I've ever rung up about a POA horse. I absolutely hate using the phone and the thought of ringing up and not getting a straight-forward answer on price is enough to send me into paroxysms of terror. At least when I know the price I know I can be fairly confident when I ring.

Plus most of the selllers I've known have put POA have explicitly said they've done it because they hope someone will pay more than the seller thinks the horse is actually worth. That smacks of underhand tactics and is not something I would succumb to. I'm open and honest and happy to tell anyone what I paid for my horses. I'm not afraid of being judged.

 

[Goldenstar]

Car thing is true some people do put the price up when they see the car.

 

[Andiamo]

I think a lot of buyers dislike poa as they are lacking the confidence as purchasers to call and ask the price. So what if its out of your price range? Just say thanks but not for me.

I agree. But...if there are ten ads, and they all have the price, you can visually scan them in a matter of seconds.

If there are ten ads, and they all state POA, if you consider 5 minutes per call to ask the price, (plus the amount of time is takes to pluck up the courage to call) then you're looking at 50 minutes (compared to seconds) - plus not everyone's reachable, and they won't disclose the price on the phone, or they take days to ring you back....plus, potentially ten awkward moments of saying "sorry, not in my budget", then having to fend off the questions of "well, what is your budget"?

Actually, contrary to all of this, I just thought back to my first horse in Germany. I saw an ad with a picture of this stunning dapple grey dressage horse - pinned up in a telephone booth, price was POA.
Well, it took me about 2 weeks to eventually get the courage to ring up, and still the seller wouldn't tell me the price, she said "you have to come see her".

Well, I was completely inexperienced with the whole thing, it was my first time buying a horse, to be honest I wasn't even looking to buy one. I had been sharing one up to that point, and I just happened to use that phone booth that day. So, I went to see the horse. It was love at first sight, she was the most beautiful creature I had ever seen. I couldn't ride very well (and embarrassingly there was a big audience of serious German riders watching me try her), but I wanted a serious horse to learn dressage on, and I loved her immediately. Anyway, seller still wouldn't tell me a price. It got to a point where she asked me, what would you pay? I told her a really silly amount, about 5K€, and she sold her to me for that - because she knew I loved the horse completely. She told me afterwards she'd paid 14K€ for that horse direct from breeder just 2 years before. But she was touched by the immediate "click" that the mare and I had
I think this is a one-off situation though!

 

[measles]

Surely the viewing and price hike on viewing the potential client's car issue (which I could imagine some unscrupulous people doing) doesn't happen as surely, surely people don't view horses without knowing their price? POA may put people off but if they do call the price is always ascertained before viewing? No one would view a horse when they had no idea of the price ...?

 

[TarrSteps]

Andiamo, the person in your car example did not get a deal merely because he drove a different car, he (maybe - you don't know what the seller might have taken) wrangled a deal because he lied about his personal circumstances. Which shows you what a game the whole thing is. People love games when they benefit from them, less so when they are on the "losing" end.

POA traditionally means "If you have to ask, you can't afford." People who spend 50 or 100k on a horse don't necessarily want everyone else to know their business. And yes, there might be other people involved, taking cuts along the way. People may disagree with this but, at the upper levels, it's how deals get done and usually everyone one involved is resigned.

For horses at "everyday" price points I do think it's a a conceit or, as suggested, something not quite right is going on. (Although that's pretty dumb as if you're giving out the price of the horse on the phone, word is going to get 'round!) As this thread shows it probably backfires more than not by putting off people who might genuinely interested, although if I liked the look of a horse it would not put me off ringing up.

As to sellers saying "no time wasters" that always makes me laugh. As if that's going to put a real time waster (who may not even see themselves that way) off! Potential buyers aren't obligated to continue with a deal after an initial conversation or even a ride. I know there are lots of people who jerk sellers around but, equally, if someone comes to try a horse and doesn't like it, how is that wrong? If I go into Sainsbury's I'm not contractually obligated to buy something!

 

[measles]

Posted without reading Andiamo's post immediately above so not directed to them!