skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
I'll just remind of something you said when you were criticising a video I posted.
Poor horse
- Thread starter Supertrooper
- Start date
I'll just remind of something you said when you were criticising a video I posted.
Elf On A Shelf
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What do you make of this bunch of miscreants at Windsor yesterday? Clearly so stressed about life ...
https://fb.watch/edfnVa4HH1/
https://fb.watch/edfnVa4HH1/
bonny
Well-Known Member
Ever helpful !I'll just remind of something you said when you were criticising a video I posted.
Elf On A Shelf
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Are you insinuating that they drug their horses? The horse had never behaved like that at prior races, he will have had a racecourse gallop too at some point. He will more than likely grow out of it and the yard will also look into why he behaved the way he did. They leave no stone unturned.
sakura
Well-Known Member
Those horses are not displaying the same behaviour as the other video - the circumstances are entirely different. And again, just because a horse enjoys running doesn't make the treatment, training and outcome of a racing career right.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I don't understand why you are even asking the question, of course I wasn't. That horse is probably, imo, flooded with adrenaline and contrary to what the person I replied to was suggesting, he is likely to do a short sprint faster because of that, not perform worse.
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palo1
Well-Known Member
In between the digging/bowing and rearing moments (which seems to happen as he is put under pressure to comply as it were) he has ears forward and is clearly relaxed about being handled/led. He is or should be quite adrenalised through his breeding and race training - through entirely natural processes but most people know that the last thing trainers want is for horses to be upset or stressed (rather than anticipating galloping) prior to the start of the race. They are different states for a horse to be in but I get that we might interpret things differently.
bonny
Well-Known Member
If you watched racing you would know that trainers, handlers etc go to great lengths to get their horses to the start as calmly as possible. Many a race has been lost by a horse getting too worked up beforehand and Coolmore are experts at managing their young horses to the extent it’s rare to see one of theirs misbehaving.
Elf On A Shelf
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I actually completely disagree with 2yo racing. I always have, always will. But racing isn't the worst career a horse can have. There are plenty of other life styles that horses have to endure that I do not agree with.
And that is why everyone is different. If we all agreed on everything then life would be incredibly boring indeed!
Elf On A Shelf
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Why would it even cross anyones mind to write "its a banned substance if not produced naturally". I know there are lots of theories about drugs being bandied about in Ireland at the moment but their drugs testing policies will be as stringent as ours hence why trainers generally don't even tempt fate with drugs and their withdrawal times.
palo1
Well-Known Member
To me that is a completely daft assertion @ycbm (though I am not going to continue to argue the toss with you). If that were the case then what the heck is the point of any training; surely it would be better to just leave everything alone until you wanted to race, other than fittening work, then stress the heck out of them with loading, stalls, the atmosphere etc etc, put some brave idiot on top and raise the flag?!! I don't know much about racing but I think Coolmore probably do and on here @Elf On A Shelf can answer questions about it.
palo1
Well-Known Member
This, from Burghley 2008 is interesting. Are these horses trying to escape, are they stressed or just very fit, full of anticipation or suffering from pain perhaps? They are rearing, bucking and needing some quite clear handling...
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Quigleyandme
Well-Known Member
I don’t know enough about racing to comment but those eventing horses in all their natural glory are the most beautiful things on the planet IMO.
SusieT
Well-Known Member
Horses will perform well despite stress/pain and hiding serious illness e.g. ulcers. We have to have blood rules in olympic horse sport to prevent abuse from a minority. Being a sporting horse person does not a 'kind' person, good trainer or educated horse person always make.
SusieT
Well-Known Member
That will be why racehorses all live turned out in large herds to allow them to express natural behaviour?
Racehorses are traditionally one of the most intensively 'farmed' horses. The 'good ones' are the ones who can cope despite fairly non horse friendly management systems.
In reply to someone else- being placed just means he can run fast once put in a herd situation, doesn't have much to do with how stressed he is..
SusieT
Well-Known Member
Burghley- a number are stressed and worried by the atmosphere.
SusieT
Well-Known Member
Out of interest- how would the defenders of this behaviour describe a horse undergoing stress? What behaviours might you expect to see?
TPO
Well-Known Member
Obviously I do not agree with the breaking and competing of horses for 2yr old completions. Or even racing 3 or 4yrs olds...or really racing at all.
But what gets me on hho is the "whatabouttery". Its a better life than X, they want for nothing best of food, rugs and attention apart from, you know, the want of a somewhat healthy management where they aren't broken as skeletally immature infants, aren't fed commercial feeds and restricted forage, have turn out and herd interactions to develop normal horse behaviours and so the list could go on and on
But ya know at least they're not a pyramid horse, or starved, or beaten...the "acceptable" abuse is fine. It generates £££ for the equine industry apparently ?
But what gets me on hho is the "whatabouttery". Its a better life than X, they want for nothing best of food, rugs and attention apart from, you know, the want of a somewhat healthy management where they aren't broken as skeletally immature infants, aren't fed commercial feeds and restricted forage, have turn out and herd interactions to develop normal horse behaviours and so the list could go on and on
But ya know at least they're not a pyramid horse, or starved, or beaten...the "acceptable" abuse is fine. It generates £££ for the equine industry apparently ?
Elf On A Shelf
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Lady Tinseltime
Well-Known Member
Just being fit horses really
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Do you have any figures on what proportion of racing stables have daily turnout?
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stangs
Well-Known Member
The exception to prove the rule and all that. By your own admission, it’s not particularly common.
(Sorry OP, conversation seems to veering off into the usual racing debate.)
sakura
Well-Known Member
Are you insinuating that most race horses (or indeed sport horses) are kept as you describe?
TPO
Well-Known Member
Never mind the numbers of "wastage" coming out of the industry.
Lost count of the number advertised coming out of a yard having done tendons, amongst other things, needing homes to rest them and turn away to see if they'd come good. Break and replace ?
Elf On A Shelf
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It's more common in National Hunt yards as there are very few colts/horses kicking about. 99% of the National Hunt World is mares and geldings so its easier to turn them out. Some yards keep them turned out in groups for a few hours a day when I full work, others like us split them into individual paddocks next to each other to minimise the risk of someone getting kicked and injured. Summer holidays they all get their shoes off and turfed out 24/7 in groups of up to 15 of the same gender. Hobbs turns 40-odd out together for their holidays - it's quite a sight on release day! They all walk into the field in a long line and as one all head collars are taken off and the horses are gone! Up and over the hill to explore the 40-50 acres they have to roam.
Flat yards with colts don't tend to turn them out together for obvious reasons.
Elf On A Shelf
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Same could be said of any industry though. How many dressage or jumping horses don't make it past futurities because they have done too much too young and are palmed off onto someone else to have a low level career.
TPO
Well-Known Member
That's just more whatabouttery.
The numbers in racing are higher than other industries so even if the % of "wastage" was the same in each it's still more horses coming out of racing yards than any other type of yard.
The numbers in racing are higher than other industries so even if the % of "wastage" was the same in each it's still more horses coming out of racing yards than any other type of yard.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Venetia Williams yard turns out during the summer and the horses have an amazing environment there. Not sure if you will be able to see this: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1054097505461572 or this https://www.facebook.com/venetiawilliamsracing. If not, you can follow Venetia on fb. She often posts pictures of the herd in the lake too.
The issue of whataboutery is tricky for me as whilst I understand the issues, in fact I do think it is helpful to have context for considering welfare issues. It's not about excusing poor practice, bad handling or abuse at all but for me some of the whataboutery is about identifying priorities. I have always thought that and I read others annoyance of that but still, for me, speaking up about worse abuse, prioritising animal welfare from the bottom up seems relevant and important. People can get really exercised about specific issues that trouble them but opening issues up with the 'whataboutery' can be useful as it presents context and a wider discussion.
If you highlight the issues and raise the bar at the bottom; through legislation etc things will get better for everyone. Racehorses are far from being the only horses to experience long periods of stabling for example, or to be worked at a very young age, or fed inappropriately, neglected, whipped etc etc. Racing is highly regulated too where the vast majority of horse keeping in the UK isn't.
We are all different. Perhaps the horse in the video posted is stressed; he is certainly expressing a strong response but the context of that is that whilst that horse is, imo, far too young to be working (and I think 2yo racing should NOT happen) he is in the care of experts, is highly valued and therefore unlikely to be neglected physically or mentally (though I understand the issues of racehorse husbandry too) and there will be a team of people caring for that horse. I get that we need to change things in racing BUT that, for me isn't the same priority as other things that happen elsewhere.
There are changes in our culture of keeping racehorses; the concerns that are expressed here are generalised through the horse world, though in variations of course. I think it is naive to think that everyone in racing for example, isn't aware of changing ideas and priorities about animal welfare and it is quite odd to think that they haven't considered how to do things better themselves. It is kind of easy to point to a big thing like racing though and it is in the public eye so I do get the attention to racing related issues/incidences. Truly, the breeding and production of sport horses, the levels of wastage and stress need attention too.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Do you think so? These are horses that will have had a huge amount of experience of this kind of atmosphere on their journey to competing at that level. All of them will be familiar with the setting and routine of the trot up and most of the horses shown will probably have competed at an even bigger event previously. All of those horses are being presented for the trot up by people they have a successful relationship of trust and partnership with. They are all supremely fit, healthy and highly trained, albeit sensitive and highly intelligent characters; their 'job' as top class eventers necessitates that really. I think it is really reductive to see that some natural actions (rearing, spooking, bucking etc) are always stress related. I see our horses in the field doing exactly the same when they are playing for example. I believe there is much more to a horse's behaviour than the 'natural' and the 'stress due to human interaction' tropes.
humblepie
Well-Known Member
No 11 in the Windsor clip is so sweet. Not that that has anything to do with the topic though.