Poor horse

[paisley]

This, from Burghley 2008 is interesting. Are these horses trying to escape, are they stressed or just very fit, full of anticipation or suffering from pain perhaps? They are rearing, bucking and needing some quite clear handling...

Its top level competition horses, in a fairly charged atmosphere (even for trot up, crowds/clapping etc), and with the occasional stressed riders and grooms. You can see they know when the best moment to muck about, as its always the turn at the bottom where it goes wrong. Its always a 'phew!' moment when the acceptance is announced. Add the fact that they've probably been wearing a lovely posh rug that's been taken off at the last minute.
So, a fit horse, in the nip, with possibly a bit of wind up his bum, is asked to trot with energy (and has probably been doing a few practice trots before), in what looks like a field where everyone seems very excited about something. Its a miracle that half of them aren't doing a runner over the horizon frankly.

 

[IrishMilo]

I'm not saying it's right, but people need to understand that racing is a business. They don't have the inclination or time, like us normal folk, to play slowly slowly catchy money. These horses are worth a fortune with trainers, owners, investors and riders relying on the horses running to keep their business going. They'd be no racers on the track if they were all pulled out and sent to Kelly Marks each time they had a moment... and I say that as someone who's had an ex-racer who had to be PTS as he was so broken, and fundamentally disagrees with how they are pushed.

 

[TPO]

I'm not saying it's right, but people need to understand that racing is a business. They don't have the inclination or time, like us normal folk, to play slowly slowly catchy money. These horses are worth a fortune with trainers, owners, investors and riders relying on the horses running to keep their business going. They'd be no racers on the track if they were all pulled out and sent to Kelly Marks each time they had a moment... and I say that as someone who's had an ex-racer who had to be PTS as he was so broken, and fundamentally disagrees with how they are pushed.

Dont really understand your point? Not being sarcastic, genuinely don't understand.

We are all aware that it is a business. Its the lack of "inclination or time", amongst other factors that some take issue with. The horses are a commodity and treated as such.

Even Elf who regularly writes about her yard has posted about the incompetence of other staff along with gems like jockeys/stable staff taking their moods and frustrations out on the horses to which she has been the only person to speak up.

Much the same as you I've had ex racers that were literally broken in racing and started from a far too young age (16mths in one case). I don't see what justification there is for much of what happens in racing/training regardless of if its a business or not.

 

[sakura]

I'm not saying it's right, but people need to understand that racing is a business. They don't have the inclination or time, like us normal folk, to play slowly slowly catchy money. These horses are worth a fortune with trainers, owners, investors and riders relying on the horses running to keep their business going. They'd be no racers on the track if they were all pulled out and sent to Kelly Marks each time they had a moment... and I say that as someone who's had an ex-racer who had to be PTS as he was so broken, and fundamentally disagrees with how they are pushed.

Isn't that the problem? That, for far too many people, the horses are a way to make money and nothing else - so they are often treated as such with their emotional and physical wellbeing pushed aside in order to get them raced and hopefully earn some money on the backs of them. That's exactly what I have an issue with.

 

[tristar]

Is it just me or does it feel like things have escalated over the last few days?

I'm not saying it's right, but people need to understand that racing is a business. They don't have the inclination or time, like us normal folk, to play slowly slowly catchy money. These horses are worth a fortune with trainers, owners, investors and riders relying on the horses running to keep their business going. They'd be no racers on the track if they were all pulled out and sent to Kelly Marks each time they had a moment... and I say that as someone who's had an ex-racer who had to be PTS as he was so broken, and fundamentally disagrees with how they are pushed.

but that a point, it is their fulltime day job, training horses, they have all day to deal with little problems, its their actual job and they should start now to pull up their socks, up their game and frankly come into the modern age, get up to date

 

[ycbm]

others like us split them into individual paddocks next to each other to minimise the risk of someone getting kicked and injured.

Your pictures in post #49 aren't of daily turnout, then?
.

 

[tristar]

This, from Burghley 2008 is interesting. Are these horses trying to escape, are they stressed or just very fit, full of anticipation or suffering from pain perhaps? They are rearing, bucking and needing some quite clear handling...

they look fairly normal to me, we have that many a day here, ``just having fun mom``they say when i say ``whats up with you``

then settle and work or come in to bed

 

[palo1]

they look fairly normal to me, we have that many a day here, ``just having fun mom``they say when i say ``whats up with you``

then settle and work or come in to bed

Yep. They look full of vitality, expression and self confidence to me though clearly enjoying playing the goat!! I don't think these horses are stressed or in pain.

 

[Dexter]

What do you make of this bunch of miscreants at Windsor yesterday? Clearly so stressed about life ...

https://fb.watch/edfnVa4HH1/

Almost every comment on that video is negative, which is very telling.

 

[SusieT]

Yep. They look full of vitality, expression and self confidence to me though clearly enjoying playing the goat!! I don't think these horses are stressed or in pain.

What would you judge as a stressed horse? How would you notice it? What behaviours might you expect them to present if worried by something?

 

[palo1]

What would you judge as a stressed horse? How would you notice it? What behaviours might you expect them to present if worried by something?

There are so many ways in which a horse might show or evidence stress that I could be here all day listing them!! Horsemanship is about managing horses across so many aspects of their life, their training, their injuries, their living etc etc. I don't think it is remotely helpful to look at a moment in time and conclude that x y or z is 'evident' or clear tbh. I posted the videos of those horses at Burghley to try to convey that. As someone who has lived a long time with horses and been passionately interested in them I know that horses have a huge variety of emotional states and responses. They have an extraordinary capacity to react to their world and to express, physically their response to that and I think that is quite a complex thing.

IF I had presented a brief snapshot of one of those eventers, or perhaps a picture of Willam Fox Pitt's horse My Bay Hero trotting up at Burghley in 2014, I could probably convince half of this forum (at least) that the horse was deeply unhappy, lame and possibly ill treated. For example this image: https://eventingnation.com/burghley-jogs-unofficial-awards-photo-gallery/ (there are plenty of images of this) Yet I don't think that it would be reasonable to conclude from that one image or watching the short clip of the trot up that I could be sure of anything about that horse's state of mind. I would want so much more context and knowledge - partly cos I am not daft enough to think I can 'understand' an unknown horse's emotions/stress from a single image or brief clip and partly because things are very rarely, if ever, that simple. I do understand and appreciate that people see things differently and that multiple perspectives on an issue are a good thing but many people would conclude from the context, that in fact the horse is not stressed or worried or in pain. From knowing that My Bay Hero (for example) was a top class eventer, ridden by someone who has demonstrated the ability to create a huge level of trust and athletic success with a variety of horses, over a very extended career, with the advantage of having a wide variety of other experts and support around him to provide their perspectives, insights and expertise, you may well find that context supported that view.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I like how all the women have massive, leggy wild beasts and William Fox-Pit appears to have a bouncy pony onna string. ?

 

[PapaverFollis]

*bypasses the point*

 

[palo1]

I like how all the women have massive, leggy wild beasts and William Fox-Pit appears to have a bouncy pony onna string. ?

Tamarillo was gorgeous and yes, he deffo looked like a little pony next to William FP! Such a neat, polite set of bucks he put in too.

 

[criso]

My ex racer has done that paddling/pawing thing a couple of time and both times he was really stressed, not being naughty. In between he can stand still and look around and appear as if he's ok but he's not and can explode at any time. Once was at a camp in an indoor jumping lesson. I got on and trotted him round and he relaxed quite quickly and jumped nicely. Another was on a xc clinic, I'd taken him away from the car park in search of something to get in from, there were no other horses. Once on he pawed, went sideways, backwards but eventually we joined the others. He didn't relax and we couldn't do much more than hack round and pop some tiny fences. In him adrenaline doesn't produce anything useful, he can freeze and not go forward even when other horses are in front and outdoors can be worse as that gazing off into the distance is not taking in his surroundings but focusing on something that is worrying.

In terms of the horse in the video, I'd say it was stressed/overwrought and not really coping at that moment but I wouldn't like to say that they're not trying to work through the issues behind the scenes.

I'm another that would rather horses weren't run at 2, especially given how young the are started to achieve this and some will cope but others mentally aren't ready.

 

[SusieT]

O

There are so many ways in which a horse might show or evidence stress that I could be here all day listing them!! Horsemanship is about managing horses across so many aspects of their life, their training, their injuries, their living etc etc. I don't think it is remotely helpful to look at a moment in time and conclude that x y or z is 'evident' or clear tbh. I posted the videos of those horses at Burghley to try to convey that. As someone who has lived a long time with horses and been passionately interested in them I know that horses have a huge variety of emotional states and responses. They have an extraordinary capacity to react to their world and to express, physically their response to that and I think that is quite a complex thing.

IF I had presented a brief snapshot of one of those eventers, or perhaps a picture of Willam Fox Pitt's horse My Bay Hero trotting up at Burghley in 2014, I could probably convince half of this forum (at least) that the horse was deeply unhappy, lame and possibly ill treated. For example this image: https://eventingnation.com/burghley-jogs-unofficial-awards-photo-gallery/ (there are plenty of images of this) Yet I don't think that it would be reasonable to conclude from that one image or watching the short clip of the trot up that I could be sure of anything about that horse's state of mind. I would want so much more context and knowledge - partly cos I am not daft enough to think I can 'understand' an unknown horse's emotions/stress from a single image or brief clip and partly because things are very rarely, if ever, that simple. I do understand and appreciate that people see things differently and that multiple perspectives on an issue are a good thing but many people would conclude from the context, that in fact the horse is not stressed or worried or in pain. From knowing that My Bay Hero (for example) was a top class eventer, ridden by someone who has demonstrated the ability to create a huge level of trust and athletic success with a variety of horses, over a very extended career, with the advantage of having a wide variety of other experts and support around him to provide their perspectives, insights and expertise, you may well find that context supported that view.

You make a long post which basically says that you don't really know how you would tell but as long as it comes from an expensive yard and can be made to look pretty it must be pretty happy.

You might find some useful information here :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8743789/
https://thehorse.com/1108226/horses-facial-expressions-of-pain-can-also-indicate-stress/

 

[palo1]

O




You make a long post which basically says that you don't really know how you would tell but as long as it comes from an expensive yard and can be made to look pretty it must be pretty happy.

You might find some useful information here :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8743789/
https://thehorse.com/1108226/horses-facial-expressions-of-pain-can-also-indicate-stress/

I have read these previously and am generally interested in our developing understanding of horses emotions and perspectives but thank you. What I was trying to convey had nothing to do with expensive yards, or smart grooming but yeah, ok...

 

[IrishMilo]

Yep. They look full of vitality, expression and self confidence to me though clearly enjoying playing the goat!! I don't think these horses are stressed or in pain.

they look fairly normal to me, we have that many a day here, ``just having fun mom``they say when i say ``whats up with you``

What a bizarre double standard. I guess place some cheery music and buckets of flowers over the racing videos and you'd have a different POV...

 

[palo1]

What a bizarre double standard. I guess place some cheery music and buckets of flowers over the racing videos and you'd have a different POV...

I am not sure what you are getting at @IrishMilo - sorry! Do you think the eventers in the clip were stressed/unhappy? If so, what makes you think that and does the context of that situation make any difference to your understanding or assesment of that? What I was trying to convey was that it is very difficult to state that any horse is in xyz state purely from a short clip. The racehorse certainly looked agitated at moments and yes, that might be uncomfortable viewing but equally, you could post a split second image or short clip of eventer Opposition Buzz rearing at the trot up at Burghley and assert that he was stressed/unhappy. That might, out of context, make uncomfortable viewing Do you think that is the case or do you think that for eg Opposition Buzz was feeling very lively and expressing that?

For me, I think it is impossibly reductive to view any horse behaviour out of context and in fact I would suggest that it could be quite misleading to make assertions about things in that way.

 

[tristar]

was talking about the event horses not the racehorse

 

[ycbm]

This event horses are to my view undoubtedly wound up. They are also undoubtedly very fit. And every very fit horse I've owned had been far more spooky when fit than when let down. Spooky meaning hypervigilant, looking for things to kick off about.

A long time ago when I made that link I started wondering when we are going to start questioning our right to deliberately put horses into a physical state which makes it so much more likely that life will upset their mental state. (And now we also breed them for dressage and showing for "presence".) I think that time is here, especially with Peta (see other thread) suggesting that horses should not be ridden at all.
.

 

[IrishMilo]

I am not sure what you are getting at @IrishMilo - sorry! Do you think the eventers in the clip were stressed/unhappy? If so, what makes you think that and does the context of that situation make any difference to your understanding or assesment of that? What I was trying to convey was that it is very difficult to state that any horse is in xyz state purely from a short clip. The racehorse certainly looked agitated at moments and yes, that might be uncomfortable viewing but equally, you could post a split second image or short clip of eventer Opposition Buzz rearing at the trot up at Burghley and assert that he was stressed/unhappy. That might, out of context, make uncomfortable viewing Do you think that is the case or do you think that for eg Opposition Buzz was feeling very lively and expressing that?

For me, I think it is impossibly reductive to view any horse behaviour out of context and in fact I would suggest that it could be quite misleading to make assertions about things in that way.

Sorry Palo, I was just making a point that there seems to be a double standard going on here amongst some posters whereby if it's shown on a racetrack the horse is in obvious distress, but if it's to do with our beloved eventing the horses are just fit and up for it...

 

[palo1]

Sorry Palo, I was just making a point that there seems to be a double standard going on here amongst some posters whereby if it's shown on a racetrack the horse is in obvious distress, but if it's to do with our beloved eventing the horses are just fit and up for it...

Ah!! Ok, thanks for explaining that

 

[palo1]

This event horses are to my view undoubtedly wound up. They are also undoubtedly very fit. And every very horse I've owned had been far more spooky when fit than when let down. Spooky meaning hypervigilant, looking for things to kick off about.

A long time ago when I made that link I started wondering when we are going to start questioning our right to deliberately put horses into a physical. state which makes it so much more likely that life will upset their mental state. (And now we also breed them for dressage and showing for "presence".) I think that time is here, especially with Peta (see other thread) suggesting that horses should not be ridden at all.
.

Yes, a fit horse can be more reactive to it's environment but not always. Some/possibly as many horses are reactive/spooky if they don't have enough to do and think about too. I don't know that it is unfair to get and keep a healthy horse fit; that would be the very last thing on my list of welfare priorities tbh. I do think that racing 2 year old horses should be ended; that seems unequivocally unfair and unethical in light of what we know about horses skeletal-muscular development as well as their mental/emotional health. BUT an appropriate degree of work at an appropriately young age is suggested to help a horse's bone density and soundness. Where and how do you draw the line unless you take PETA's stance that no horse should be ridden, no animal kept for our pleasure. Would you want to spend the rest of your life being unable to engage with a cat/dog etc? I certainly couldn't support anything like that, not only because selfishly that would cause me no end of misery (I simply have never been able to imagine life without a dog for instance) but because I think it would be an absolutely disaster for our relationship with nature and the environment. Truly, removing the human from inter-species interactions is utterly non-sensical and to me, dangerous. But, PETA members have a right to their opinion.

In relation to the idea of horses not being ridden, competed etc I think that is way down in the list of ways we could improve the lot of domestic horses or any other animal frankly; it is just a fantasy/nonsense to think that is the 'answer' to a world where animals are absolutely part of the human world.

 

[stangs]

Yes, a fit horse can be more reactive to it's environment but not always. Some/possibly as many horses are reactive/spooky if they don't have enough to do and think about too.

Tbh I think this is a training issue, and one that affects their mental welfare considerably. They shouldn’t need to constantly be focused on something. They should be able to relax under saddle too. But, the more competitive you are, the more you focus on creating an animal who’s always switched on and highly sensitive to your aids, whilst repeatedly putting them in potentially stressful environments (shows), and never teaching them how to switch off under the saddle (should we be taking a page out of cutting trainers’ books?), nor how to regulate their emotions and bring their own stress levels down… And then you end up with an animal with chronic stress, which certainly isn’t beneficial for them.

However I suppose if the animal’s still doing well in competitions, and still rideable then why care…

 

[TPO]

Tbh I think this is a training issue, and one that affects their mental welfare considerably. They shouldn’t need to constantly be focused on something. They should be able to relax under saddle too. But, the more competitive you are, the more you focus on creating an animal who’s always switched on and highly sensitive to your aids, whilst repeatedly putting them in potentially stressful environments (shows), and never teaching them how to switch off under the saddle (should we be taking a page out of cutting trainers’ books?), nor how to regulate their emotions and bring their own stress levels down… And then you end up with an animal with chronic stress, which certainly isn’t beneficial for them.

However I suppose if the animal’s still doing well in competitions, and still rideable then why care…

This.

I've worked with extremely fit horses who've also competed in "high octane" sports like cutting, campdrafting and polo cross. None were spooky, sharp or "stupid" at training or competitions.

Their training taught them how to manage stress/emotions and use a release.

When you actually stand back and look at it objectively it's pretty poor what English (of all nationalities) allow/cause and accept. Amber's Echo wrote about this point much better than I have in her post about a Buck Brannaman clinic.

Warwick Schiller seems to be the main current person filtering this down with managing stress, matching steps etc

 

[palo1]

Tbh I think this is a training issue, and one that affects their mental welfare considerably. They shouldn’t need to constantly be focused on something. They should be able to relax under saddle too. But, the more competitive you are, the more you focus on creating an animal who’s always switched on and highly sensitive to your aids, whilst repeatedly putting them in potentially stressful environments (shows), and never teaching them how to switch off under the saddle (should we be taking a page out of cutting trainers’ books?), nor how to regulate their emotions and bring their own stress levels down… And then you end up with an animal with chronic stress, which certainly isn’t beneficial for them.

However I suppose if the animal’s still doing well in competitions, and still rideable then why care…

I don't know anyone that trains horses that wants them to be switched on all the time. In fact, for years the basis of training with the people I know has always been about developing relaxation and about being able to cue that switching on or off. I don't know either, any competitive rider that doesn't invest considerable time and energy in promoting and developing relaxation so your experience/assertion is really alien and unfamiliar to me. Are you sure you mean to suggest that it is common practice in most disciplines not to actively develop relaxation?

 

[Gingerwitch]

Do you have any figures on what proportion of racing stables have daily turnout?
.

I cannot tell you how many livery yards I know of that don't have daily turnout cine October to April. It's heartbreaking and those poor horses don't even get out for exercise ?

 

[stangs]

I don't know anyone that trains horses that wants them to be switched on all the time. In fact, for years the basis of training with the people I know has always been about developing relaxation and about being able to cue that switching on or off. I don't know either, any competitive rider that doesn't invest considerable time and energy in promoting and developing relaxation so your experience/assertion is really alien and unfamiliar to me. Are you sure you mean to suggest that it is common practice in most disciplines not to actively develop relaxation?

Most of the 'relaxation' training I see is really just training focus on the rider and throughness in the muscles, not actual switched off relaxation. Either that, or "horse is too tired to be switched on " 'relaxation'.

E.g.,
A pro SJer I used to hack with was very keen on training her sharp horse to 'relax' out hacking, i.e., to not spook at everything. Big pats (problematic in their own way) whenever he chewed or yawned or ignored something. But God forbid he dared to take a few strides to break into trot from walk - every transition had to be exact. She wasn't truly training him to switch off: she was training him to switch off to his surroundings, but always be switched on to her aids. Really, horses need the chance to do the opposite sometimes too.

A dressage rider I knew was also big on 'relaxation', i.e., not having tension in the back so horse could move correctly. Did lots of long and low, and horse would drop head, move through back etc everything you want to see. But you couldn't get it to stand and just chill. It had to be doing something, because it knew saddle = work. At first, it couldn't stand still, so she used Parelli style work to make it. Then it couldn't stand without pawing, so R- was used to stop that behaviour too. And, when all the 'bad behaviour' was dealt with, horse's ears still were flicking a hundred times a minute to wait for its next command, and horse would jumpstart at the slightest pressure. Like the SJer, rider didn't consider this a problem, or the opposite of relaxation, because transitions had to be clean. You couldn't give it a genuinely long rein unless it was exhausted from being ridden, or else it would freak out on you. I never once saw that horse's eye soften.

(ETA: and these examples are both outside of competitive settings. At show grounds, 'relaxation' under saddle seems to be horse focusing only on rider set to max settings. No switching off like Western horses.)

For me, genuine relaxation is a soft eye and otherwise relaxed facial muscles. A horse that can look around and appreciate its surroundings without panicking, relying on the rider for emotional support or being focused on when it will receive its next aid. Who doesn't need to always be given things to think about. Who can be startled by something, but then release that tension and move on, rather than trigger stacking.

I'd be interested to hear your experiences of how people, especially professionals, train a horse to actually relax, as I'm yet to see any competitive English rider do so. I've known some happy hackers and some low-level TREC folk work towards this, but that's it.

 

[milliepops]

I think there's a growing movement towards teaching the horse to relax (itself), look at how more dressage pros are working with TRT as one example. That's got a lot to do with developing self management in the horse through various techniques so it's not permanently wired.