Poor horse

palo1

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Most of the 'relaxation' training I see is really just training focus on the rider and throughness in the muscles, not actual switched off relaxation. Either that, or "horse is too tired to be switched on " 'relaxation'.

E.g.,
A pro SJer I used to hack with was very keen on training her sharp horse to 'relax' out hacking, i.e., to not spook at everything. Big pats (problematic in their own way) whenever he chewed or yawned or ignored something. But God forbid he dared to take a few strides to break into trot from walk - every transition had to be exact. She wasn't truly training him to switch off: she was training him to switch off to his surroundings, but always be switched on to her aids. Really, horses need the chance to do the opposite sometimes too.

A dressage rider I knew was also big on 'relaxation', i.e., not having tension in the back so horse could move correctly. Did lots of long and low, and horse would drop head, move through back etc everything you want to see. But you couldn't get it to stand and just chill. It had to be doing something, because it knew saddle = work. At first, it couldn't stand still, so she used Parelli style work to make it. Then it couldn't stand without pawing, so R- was used to stop that behaviour too. And, when all the 'bad behaviour' was dealt with, horse's ears still were flicking a hundred times a minute to wait for its next command, and horse would jumpstart at the slightest pressure. Like the SJer, rider didn't consider this a problem, or the opposite of relaxation, because transitions had to be clean. You couldn't give it a genuinely long rein unless it was exhausted from being ridden, or else it would freak out on you. I never once saw that horse's eye soften.

(ETA: and these examples are both outside of competitive settings. At show grounds, 'relaxation' under saddle seems to be horse focusing only on rider set to max settings. No switching off like Western horses.)

For me, genuine relaxation is a soft eye and otherwise relaxed facial muscles. A horse that can look around and appreciate its surroundings without panicking, relying on the rider for emotional support or being focused on when it will receive its next aid. Who doesn't need to always be given things to think about. Who can be startled by something, but then release that tension and move on, rather than trigger stacking.

I'd be interested to hear your experiences of how people, especially professionals, train a horse to actually relax, as I'm yet to see any competitive English rider do so. I've known some happy hackers and some low-level TREC folk work towards this, but that's it.

I am aware of several appoaches - some of which are quite old school (as in not especially 'fashionable') though as @milliepops says there are people 'out there' using TRT and other methods. Back in the 90s much of the training I was getting was influenced by Molly Sivewright (Talland) and Erik Herbermann as well as other people influenced by Pojhadsky. All of those made their training fundamentally dependent on progressive, sympathetic work where the horse relaxing and understanding how to relax for him/herself was the key to quality. I found Bill Dorrance to be great as well in the specifics of the rider enabling a horse to learn how to solve problems of tension for itself though that was a different kind of riding of course. There has been some good work done by natural horseman type trainers which has really got into the wider public consciousness (I don't just mean Monty Roberts and Parelli but more localised trainers that have been on hand for many people to turn to for help) where understanding what relaxation for a horse looked like in groundwork initially was important. I think that is kind of where most thinking riders are at now, especially where there is an aim for the horse to advance it's work. It doesn't always translate or get communicated at a basic level sadly and there are many people for whom the 'goal' is more important than the horse's state of mind. The switched off relaxation of course isn't something you are likely to see at the moment of competition though as we might want our horses to be concentrating as well as really engaging with the environment and activity. Also, horses have their own ideas and judging from last night's thundering of hooves and generally noisy shenanigans outside my bedroom window there are lots of reasons for a horse to be not switched off lol.

When you watch a great many horses that are kind of systematically trained they do demonstrate (ime) considerable relaxation and confidence - the lovely soft eye, long walk, confidence to graze in hand or perform other natural behaviours even whilst at a 'different' place such as a competition venue. I don't mind seeing healthy horses alert, playful and in a very alert state tbh either; it doesn't necessarily signal a kind of tension which I think is concerning. When I have watched our entirely 'natural' hill pony herd they can be incredibly dynamic - for reasons which are often not obvious and exhibit many signs of 'tension' in their natural interactions with each other. When I ride with them or through them sometimes they are very alert, running alongside our horses - potentially demonstrating those signs of 'stress' yet sometimes they literally don't give a stuff and stay grazing, snoozing etc. I don't think we can be entirely certain that we can either totally understand or control a horse's mental state - they are intelligent and emotional animals so that seems like a very limited and unsympathetic approach to me.

Maybe I am very lucky in that just about everyone I know who rides, strives to achieve a relaxed state or to promote relaxation in their horses; in their living arrangements, their confidence with in hand and ridden work. That makes life so much better for us of course too.
 

humblepie

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A couple of the earlier comments made me think back to the dressage Europeans at Windsor - in the presentation/afterwards Totilas just walked round on a long rein, his rider waving to the crowds and you could see as he left the arena to go into the smaller warm up he just plodded along like he was my horse hacking up the lane (though obviously with a bit more style!). The other horses were really hyped up, one in particular being lead in with the rider on board and when they left the arena it was at high speed and circuiting round the warm up. Could those horses have learned to relax? Would it affect their competition edge? Is it just that some horses are more chilled than others. Not getting at dressage or those horses and riders who are at the top of the game. It is just something I find interesting. Nature or nuture?
 

palo1

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As a not particularly helpful comment hahahaha I was always told that if I wanted to bet on a racehorse to choose the one that was walking round in a totally relaxed way in the paddock; I think we have actually always known the value of relaxation in any interaction with horses and that is often why 'temperament' is so important in breeding (well some breeding lol!). I am not sure why anyone would think otherwise but in relation to the horse in the OP, he probably wasn't relaxed at times but at other points I think looked to be more relaxed and confident and in fact, his record is not bad. It's not simple...
 

oldie48

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Leaving aside the issue of whether 2 year olds should be racing and focusing on "unwanted" behaviour, I have to admit that every young horse we've had has on occasion exhibited behaviour that could be described as "stress related" and I know some would say could be "pain related", add in a high level of fitness and we found it was a recipe for high jinks. Surely training is about helping the horse to cope in situations that he might find initially stressful or over exciting but are actually quite safe? Immediately removing them from such a situation teaches them nothing positive. I totally support anyone who decides they never want to put their horse into a stressful or over exciting situation and assume that means they will stop riding. Hacking today we met a happy band of DofE kids sitting either side of a narrow lane, huge backpacks beside them and much popping of cans. Mr D was quite stressed, rather keen on whipping round to go home by the shortest route and took some encouragement to walk past (no, I didn't beat him!). When he was a youngster he would whip round and go home, if stopped, he'd stand up and then try again to go home, fortunately he is now prepared to listen to his rider. That didn't happen by accident. With regard to the video and again leaving aside the fact that it was an incident on a race course, if a horse I was sat on behaved like this I'd be very grateful to have those guys around to help because they managed to keep both the rider and the horse safe.
 

bonny

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Just came back and read through this thread again as Blackbeard, the horse in question then went to France twice and won two Group 1s and today he won another group 1 at Newmarket. He still does the weird pawing thing and is still impatient but is obviously a top class 2 year old.
 

ycbm

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Just came back and read through this thread again as Blackbeard, the horse in question then went to France twice and won two Group 1s and today he won another group 1 at Newmarket. He still does the weird pawing thing and is still impatient but is obviously a top class 2 year old.


I'm not sure what difference it makes to the thread that he wins races, except that it makes him way, way too valuable to remove from the source of his stress.

Poor little baby, only 2½ years old.
.
 

Goldenstar

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It’s ok for horses to be reactive to the environment .
Event horses know what coming at three day they don’t get that level hating the job getting through the trot up without mayor embarrassment was always a relief .
 

MyBoyChe

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I watched the coverage on ITV today and I must admit I interpret his behaviour as impatience with a touch of temperament thrown in. Aidans interview seemed to suggest the same I thought, I believe his sire is well known for throwing quirky offspring!! After the race he seemed much more settled so that would add up. He is undoubtedly talented but I doubt Ballydoyle would continue to race him if he were either a danger to himself or others, I would also think he has been investigated for all ailments known to man.
 

Goldenstar

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Upfront I will say racing is not my thing .
What do you make of this bunch of miscreants at Windsor yesterday? Clearly so stressed about life ...
https://fb.watch/edfnVa4HH1/
What I think about the above is that’s what happens when you take a group of half broke babies fed loads of food in public for a run about .

On the smart dark horse .
That racehorse is stressed for sure he’s probably quirky and probably settle to the job .He’s a valuable horse from a great yard that won’t be skimping on the health checks and the like yes racing is a business but it’s not a given that poor care comes with that .I think of many horses who their owner say they love being cared for in a sub optimal way living quietly and miserable out of the public eye .
Not sure I would send a mare to him .
 
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Red-1

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I had a lovely cob X ID some years ago, a work horse. He was usually well adjusted but the first time out hunting, he was so excited he was pawing and trying to lie down. Yes, excited can be interpreted as stress, but then the next time he was fine and he was hale and hearty for years so I don't think it did lasting damage.

I don't like them racing at two, I think 4 is more appropriate as an outsider looking in. But then, I don't like horses abandoned in postage stamp paddocks either. I detest rugs being left on for more than 12 hours. I hate horses being fed grain then punished for misbehaving. I hate horses that are shod, fed grain and only turned out for a few hours being chucked out together, especially in mixed groups, often with little introduction, especially when the owners are then surprised that they are kicked and claim it couldn't have been foreseen. But, I understand that I'm not in charge of them.

I think we could up our game in this country re horse welfare but the main organisation that would be expected to do that seems to follow a more political path. I have tried to call them on a few occasions, none were successful and the last ended in a slow and painful death.
 

Goldenstar

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Excited and stressed by stimuli are very very similar in terms of the reaction that horses have within the body .
It’s normal and healthy for horses to feel like that at times, they are a herd flight animals hard wired to react to atmosphere and the level of energy in their fellows .

Chronic stress the type caused by poor stabling ,nasty little wet fields , lack of of exercise low grade lameness and all manner of things that horses put up with that’s the real nasty thing leading to permanently raised cortisol levels and all the ill health that leads from that .
I am glad Blackbeard has won a race and hope he goes on to secure himself a long well cared for life as a stallion .
 
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Blackboard has been retired to stud due to injury. He was supposed to take in the Breeders Cup this year then go on as a 3yo for the Classics but it is not to be.
 

stangs

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Blackboard has been retired to stud due to injury. He was supposed to take in the Breeders Cup this year then go on as a 3yo for the Classics but it is not to be.
Putting a 2yo who's already been injured to stud seems a strange choice, given he's not had much chance to prove himself. Do you think they'll put him to stud for now and then try bring him back into work?
 
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Putting a 2yo who's already been injured to stud seems a strange choice, given he's not had much chance to prove himself. Do you think they'll put him to stud for now and then try bring him back into work?

No. He has obviously done too much of an injury to risk bringing back into work. If was going to be fit to race again in 9-10 months they would train on. But clearly not.
 

Crazy_cat_lady

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At least he's retired in one piece.

Feel more sorry for if the cap fits who's markings I loved - form had dropped off last season, probably fallen out of love with the game, had won his very rich owners lots of money

Do they retire and find another job?

Nope sent to sales, purchased by the wilsons who run their horses into the ground/put no hopers in big races

Poor s*d falls yesterday, breaking a leg.
 
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