Poor TB - Feed advice to build topline please!

Personally I wouldn't be swapping the outshine for linseed or conditioning cubes for grass nuts if you want to add weight onto him.
 
Have you changed farrier in the course of those photos, how long is he going between shoeings? The angle seems to change quite a lot from the last lot of photos.

Long and low work may help to get him stretching over his back, and also lungeing. Maybe get someone else to look at his saddle, especially if he's fluctuating so regularly- I was fascinated watching a saddle fitting of a well respected saddler who worked on the basis of fitting a saddle a bit roomy and padding it out which allows the muscles to move better due to the give in the padding and therefore build up faster, rather than a snug fit which would impede movement.

I found baileys performance balancer made a good difference to my horse, especially muscle tone. Also this summer my 17yo TB looked the best he ever has muscle wise in the 3 years I've had him, I put it down to really varied work (and good feed), always making sure he was working over his back.

Good luck :)
 
floradora09 said:
Have you changed farrier in the course of those photos, how long is he going between shoeings? The angle seems to change quite a lot from the last lot of photos.
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No, it's the same farrier. Vet suggested getting him done every 6 weeks which I have stuck to on the whole but the last time he was shod he had gone 8 week (due to yard move etc). Will have a chat with my farrier and just remind him of the issues and what we are trying to achieve with him :)
 
OP - just send him to me! I have a TB who is obese on a diet and my previous TBs have also been humungous!! I'll have him looking like a middleweight hunter in no time! :)
 
3bs he looks very similar to Andy, linseed is brilliant I'd give it a go :) when he had time off his back started to look like that and within a few weeks of riding and linseed he picked up very quickly and doesn't fizz :)
 
My 'skinny', no topline Hoss is on 3 mugs of Falcon Omega Rice, 1 and 1/2 round scoops of Falcon Oat and Barley Free and 1 and 1/2 round scoops of speedi-beet a day, split between three feeds. He's also on 40lbs of a hay a day. This is a lot less than he has been on in previous years but he is gaining topline (which he has never done before in winter) - going up 3 saddle width fittings in 7 weeks. The key with him has been to reduce his stress levels so that he is not burning the calories off stressing and instead uses them for muscle building. :)
 
TwoTurtleDoves said:
Holly hocks - what's your secret? :D
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Well if it were me, I would be feeding about 8 weeks of Readymash Extra (fab to start with, but a high starch feed, so not something I would want to feed permanently), plus ad lib good quality haylage, then would move onto something like Pure Easy.

I took my current TB to the vet a few weeks ago for x-rays only to be told that she needed to lose weight as she was looking too much like a show hunter!! Embarrassing! I've had to take her off haylage and start feeding hay instead!

I was always told that my last TB was overweight as well.

Lots of hacking in a hilly area if possible, in walk combined with a bit of schooling if able and plenty of turnout.
 
To me he looks like a typical old TB who just needs extra calories, mine looked the same and I had blood tests, worm count, teeth and the only thing he needed was food and lots of it.
I managed with as much hay/haylage at least half to two thirds of a small bale a day as he could eat and copra meal/rice bran anything with a DE greater than 14 which wasn't grain based and forget about the chaff padding. Also fed thoughout the summer conditioning feeds no matter how much grass there was. They are a money pit.
 
honetpot said:
To me he looks like a typical old TB who just needs extra calories, mine looked the same and I had blood tests, worm count, teeth and the only thing he needed was food and lots of it.
I managed with as much hay/haylage at least half to two thirds of a small bale a day as he could eat and copra meal/rice bran anything with a DE greater than 14 which wasn't grain based and forget about the chaff padding. Also fed thoughout the summer conditioning feeds no matter how much grass there was. They are a money pit.
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My TBs have never cost me any more in feed than any other horse - I've never fed them massive feeds - its the haylage which I think is the main fattening factor, or certainly has been for mine. Now if you were talking about vet's fees, then I can safely say that mine have been bottomless money pits!!
 
I agree with HH regarding haylage being the key to keeping weight on TBs. I too have never had a problem with a thin TB. However, I do not think this particulr horse is that thin. I don't think any amount of food will make any difference to its lack of top line. As I have already said, I think the problem lies elsewhere. He looks in pain. Pain in the feet can cause this type of muscle atrophy, but I also think there is a problem with the saddle.
 
Even looking at the pictures of him in summer, he has muscle wastage on his back and topline. As wagtail suggests, I think this is down to other things, not feed. He's not underweight, and does not really lack muscle elsewhere.
 
Fast fibre by Allen and page is a great feed, and as much fibre/bulk as you can give him, ad lib. Have to say would get his saddle re checked and blood tests done, may be in pain due to his feet etc.
 
He get's ad-lib haylage but unfortunately he won't eat a great deal, he never has and I imagine he never will do (he gets hay replacer that he can pick at over night too).

As I said previously I am pleased with his weight, I just wondered if I could feed anything else that would help build his muscle back up. I am not concerned by his lack of muscle as he was not worked much at all over the summer/Autumn (hence him dropping everything he had). He has only been back in gentle work for about 4 weeks, he is not the type that will improve overnight.
 
I agree with wagtail, tbh. And bear in mind that high starch is VERY bad for feet - you don't need to feed it for long; a single starch overdose is enough to cause massive problems. Given the issues this horse has with his feet I'd strongly recommend a barefoot diet. His current diet really won't be helping matters, imo.

As he's not too skinny, and is in a decent amount of work, if he is not putting on topline there must be some reason for it other than feed or work. The only one I can think of is pain.

Hope you get to the bottom of it!
 
TwoTurtleDoves said:
As he's not too skinny, and is in a decent amount of work, if he is not putting on topline there must be some reason for it other than feed or work. The only one I can think of is pain.
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He's not in a decent amount of work, he had a lot of time off over the Summer/Autumn and has only been back in gentle work for about 4 weeks. Short hacks in walk and building up.
 
3Beasties said:
He get's ad-lib haylage but unfortunately he won't eat a great deal, he never has and I imagine he never will do (he gets hay replacer that he can pick at over night too).

As I said previously I am pleased with his weight, I just wondered if I could feed anything else that would help build his muscle back up. I am not concerned by his lack of muscle as he was not worked much at all over the summer/Autumn (hence him dropping everything he had). He has only been back in gentle work for about 4 weeks, he is not the type that will improve overnight.
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Have you had him checked for ulcers? The fact that he doesn't eat much would bother me.

Feed doesn't add topline. Work does.

However, even horses at rest in a field don't have muscle wastage like that on their backs. No one is saying he will improve over night, we are just making suggestions as to why his topline is so poor.

Hope you get to the bottom of it.
 
Work and correct feeding = muscle.

He looks the same in the 2010 pic as he done in the original photos, which to me indicates that he doesn't get enough of the right work for him to develop the correct muscles. Or that he can't work, die to his navicular.

But as Wagtail says, he's mot underweight, just under muscled, and to my lacking 'bloom'.

How many years have you owned him?
 
CobsGalore said:
Have you had him checked for ulcers? The fact that he doesn't eat much would bother me.
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I was wondering about ulcers and hindgut acidosis/disruption. This also affects the hooves. The hoof running forward and hoof ripples are typical of dietary upset, usually too much starch and sugar which also affects the hind gut.

Haylage can be too acidic for some horses.

Far from conclusive but have you seen this? It might be another indicator. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr05hMmLCY4&sns=fb
 
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CobsGalore said:
Even looking at the pictures of him in summer, he has muscle wastage on his back and topline. As wagtail suggests, I think this is down to other things, not feed. He's not underweight, and does not really lack muscle elsewhere.
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I agree with Wagtail too, I'd be quite concerned with how hollow he is, even in the older pictures his back is quite sway and I think there could be something going on for this amount of muscle wastage.
 
I agree with Wagtail et al.
You cannot build muscle with food, that comes with correct work. As for the best type of food, we use grassnuts very successfully with dried grass (Graze-on), far easier to digest than starch-laden cereals. I'd get a 2nd opinion about both the saddle and the feet.
 
I agree with Wagtail, he looks like the saddle is too tight at the front he has hollows behind the shoulder, I know what this looks like as my Arab started to look this way he is in a much wider saddle now and he looks much better, look on Lavinia mitchells website he looks like some of the horses she has treated she is a remedial saddle fitter and sorted my horse out for me.
 
Pinkvboots said:
I agree with Wagtail, he looks like the saddle is too tight at the front he has hollows behind the shoulder, I know what this looks like as my Arab started to look this way he is in a much wider saddle now and he looks much better, look on Lavinia mitchells website he looks like some of the horses she has treated she is a remedial saddle fitter and sorted my horse out for me.
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That's a really informative site. The problem is, that once a horse gets like this, with so much muscle wastage, people make the mistake of thinking they are narrow and even saddlers can end up fitting a saddle to their muscle wasted state. I remember having to work really hard to convince a saddler that a horse that looked just like the OP's was actually a WIDE horse and not the medium narrow that he was measuring. The saddler ended up fitting a wide saddle and adding flocking, which he then removed gradually over the following 8 months. The horse gained a whole two inches each side proven by the templates the saddler had taken of his back. In addition, the horse could now be schooled (would refuse to come round in his previous saddle).
 
Correct work is what will build his topline. If he is getting sufficient protein 8 - 12% the muscles will build up when they are worked. Additional weight will give the illusion of more top line.
 
Wagtail I had the same problem sadler kept saying the saddle was too wide and I just knew it was too narrow, so I looked on line about it and found Lavinia she is a wonderfull lady and instantly saw his problem, what I couldnt believe is the physio never even noticed his back damage was due to the saddle, I will never use any other saddle now for either of mine, I have ordered a new one for my Arab and when I have some money my mare will also have one, my Arab has never gone so well, I used to think he was lazy he just couldnt move forwards his certainly going forward now though, I would reccommend her totally for anyone best thing I ever did.
 
You can't create top line with feed, just by working a well conditioned horse correctly :)

However his shape at the moment is very similar to my horse who has just been diagnosed with Cushings. He's a 16 year old ex racer so it was a bit of a surprise. Might be worth checking out
 
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