Post deleted

Again, not with any specific knowledge of the situation, but more generally.

I think it is easy for riders, especially young riders, to come up through the ranks with big dreams but not a great grasp on the difference between running a business and riding for yourself.

It's natural to be focused on one's own goals and perhaps even one's relationship with a horse, and that can be a very hard line to draw when you're on the business side of riding. A lot of these riders aren't business minded, they haven't come in thinking about bringing a service and delivering value to their owners, sponsors and clients. They have started from the point of 'I want to ride, compete, achieve' and haven't been able to afford that without taking paid work or investment.

They can also quite easily slip into feeling like a horse is 'theirs' and developing deep attachments to what is legally someone else's animal, and that's hard.

And not to generalise because I know there are lots of exceptions, but a lot of riders come up through their childhood, teenage years and early adulthood with a huge amount of support from their parents, yard owners, coaches etc. They are 'graduating' into needing to be responsible for themselves and their financial arrangements at the same time as they are growing up emotionally. I have seen young riders who are very talented but don't always grasp the commitment and maturity needed to run other people's horses.

Even if I look at myself, at 18/19 and riding in Denmark. I was just learning what it was like to be away from home, and I was going out partying. There were definitely mornings where I arrived hungover because I'd overdone it. In the situation I was in, I was riding someone else's horses on their yard so I had to be there and there was structure. If it had been my own yard or space on a yard without any supervision, I'd like to think I'd never have been late or left them for other people to do but one can see how it might happen that young people make some poor decisions.

Of course, the owners are completely right to expect contracts to be adhered to, the highest standard of care to be provided and horses to be developed in such a way that they are improved and leave in better condition than they arrived in. That's the business bit, and when you are operating professionally then you have to act professionally and make good on all your commitments. If that hasn't happened, then clients have every right to be upset and make changes.

No one but the people involved directly in this situation knows the extent and truth of any of the picture that is being painted, on any side.

But I can see how these different lenses, experiences and expectations can easily collide. What I think I'll take from this is that I will ensure that if I'm ever wanting to provide the ride on a horse to someone, I'll interview thoroughly on the business / structure / service delivery side and get references. I would probably have been more concerned about riding references previously but this has given me pause for thought. And I'd make sure contracts had a service delivery element with clearly set out expectations and I could contract manage that. If someone seemed brilliant, kind and talented but not like they would manage the business side well, I'd probably put the horse on livery independently now, and make sure it wasn't all under the oversight of that one person.
 
KikiDee said:
LZ has also been seeking an investor to allow her to buy out the other half of TB's horse so she can keep the ride on him, which is ironically an almost identical situation to MD with Olaf. So coincidence that she now quite aggressively wants to release the money she has tied up in Olaf? Who knows.

It all sounds VERY messy and if nothing else I'm very relieved I'm not tied up in this sort of world!
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Yes before TB took the post down she seemed to be backtracking about the condition. But then also said he looked abysmal a month ago. Well, a month ago the new rider was doing advanced canter work and collection/extension. I don’t quite understand and it seems equally as “this doesn’t add up” as they’re all accusing MD of. I can understand not being happy with the way your horse is looking or developing and pulling them out of training with someone — fair enough and your right as an owner — but the story doesn’t seem to quite hang together.

I may not have the full picture but LZ’s company to help young riders get/keep rides on quality horses does seem to have become more seeking syndication for her own rides. Seems like she wants to get back into competition. The timing is a little odd.
 
From the business viewpoint, does anyone know if there is assistance from BD or other governing bodies perhaps advising on contracts to have in place etc or at least that should have something in writing even if not a formal contract, something setting out the agreed terms and what to think about, i.e. percentage of sale price if horse is sold once trained. A racehorse owner and racehorse trainer can access a standard template agreement and it is in the rules of racing to have an agreement in place.
 
stangs said:
TB claims that she “started seeing the decline in jaeger pretty rapidly” and yet still gifted MD part of the ownership, and was also presumably in support of MD keeping the ride when MD/LZ (the owner abroad) were advertising shares in the horse.

There is very clearly bad blood between MD and TB/LZ, since LZ is now riding Jaeger and posting about how the horse has never looked better (even though he looks considerably tenser and BTV than when he was with MD). And quite frankly I find it quite odd that LZ, the part owner, has picked up the rides on two horses that were previously with MD - last I checked, owners do the owning, they don’t start becoming the riders themselves.

Either way, the narratives of all parties involved need to be taken with a pinch of salt. You can’t only preach critical thinking for the side you support.


If Tyler is so well-known to you, surely you should know 'he' 's a she?
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Ive seen the evidence myself. And no they arent my friend, I dont know them, but I do know people involved. So yes I can preach critical thinking. Because having seen the evidence myself its damning. Whereas people defending MD are basing this on a parasocial relationship and what she says, and how lovely and honest she is. The GFM alone is evidence that shes not honest in the slightest, but I did genuinely hope she was just being a bit stupid and hiding somethings.
 
humblepie said:
From the business viewpoint, does anyone know if there is assistance from BD or other governing bodies perhaps advising on contracts to have in place etc or at least that should have something in writing even if not a formal contract, something setting out the agreed terms and what to think about, i.e. percentage of sale price if horse is sold once trained. A racehorse owner and racehorse trainer can access a standard template agreement and it is in the rules of racing to have an agreement in place.
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I think this sort of thing is massively lacking across all disciplines.
 
humblepie said:
From the business viewpoint, does anyone know if there is assistance from BD or other governing bodies perhaps advising on contracts to have in place etc or at least that should have something in writing even if not a formal contract, something setting out the agreed terms and what to think about, i.e. percentage of sale price if horse is sold once trained. A racehorse owner and racehorse trainer can access a standard template agreement and it is in the rules of racing to have an agreement in place.
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Which is a great idea until someone abuses it. Owners can dictate what they want, their horse their rules. There’s always another rider out there looking for a horse.
 
I don’t know about BD but BE via EHOA does have some support/guidance for syndicate formation. It’s not always a one size fits all. I’m always amazed people enter into this kind of thing on a verbal agreement - I’ve seen it with my own eyes, and then wonder how they got screwed over!!

Me, I come from the school of thought that people will screw you over. Work from that point, think of all the examples of what might go wrong, and cover it on a signed bit of paper.
 
ihatework said:
Me, I come from the school of thought that people will screw you over. Work from that point, think of all the examples of what might go wrong, and cover it on a signed bit of paper.
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The yard I was on with Myka for 6 weeks has no contracts and I have not yet been billed. And I have been and gone. And that is SOMERFORD! And I will, of course, pay and have prompted to YO to tell me what I owe as I have accumulated extras like more bales for a deeper bed etc. I am amazed people stay in business but she seems to be doing fine.
 
I'm Dun said:
Whereas people defending MD are basing this on a parasocial relationship and what she says, and how lovely and honest she is.
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I think that's quite a broad brush to paint everyone with and I don't think anyone on here is basing their opinion on the situation on this, I had never heard of any of the people involved before this thread. People are just discussing the evidence that has been publicly available and until more information comes to light will interpret that as they see fit.
 
@LadyGascoyne I agree very much with your post about the transition from ambitious teen supported by mum and dad and someone running a business. There was a FB post the other day from a mum. I can;t remember the precise details but it was along the lines of not knowing what to do as her talented ambitious daughter had moved onto horses and her pony was now unfit and out of work. But the horse got injured and she could not afford to by the child a new horse without selling the pony. But the pony was out of work and the girl did not want to get her fit again as she'd lost interest in her as she was out of class and was now onto horses. I was thinking that child is heading for a very rude awakening! The answers were predictably brutal.....
 
Way back there were two comments that made me 😲

A judge saying hock injections were a sign of working a horse "hard enough" - I mean we should ban equestrian sport right now if that's true. Clearly it's not really, but I do think it's incredibly widespread, and that attitude doesn't surprise me.

The other comment was about dressage being a rich man's sport. It always has been, either for you, the rider, or your sponsor (military, big schools of equitation etc). Only those who worked in those classical environments, or people who could be on the lunge for a year or two, had a hope of ever riding to those levels. The democratisation of the sport is arguably a good thing, of course, but the cost has been to the horse. I still can't see how truly horse centred attitudes can survive big money, even trying to earn a living. And these young riders should not be setting up on their own, I'm sorry. Riders served LONG apprenticeships with genuine masters in the past, and I think junior and young riders classes have massive downsides. I too have seen the jump from ponies wreak all sorts of problems for the family and for the horses concerned.
 
The whole economy of FEI dressage is very angular. It’s tiny fish globally compared to SJ and there’s very little to actually be won from it money wise, pure competing wise. I do think quite a few young riders are perhaps a bit naive to the business side of it at that 6 figure horse level. There’s various schemes to try to help but they’re selective on their intake and not that widely available/published.
 
sbloom said:
And these young riders should not be setting up on their own, I'm sorry. Riders served LONG apprenticeships with genuine masters in the past,
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I don't disagree, but what jumped out at me when I read this was "but how many genuine masters are left"? Because there's precious few high level riders these days (ever?) who aren't tainted with some kind of hideous welfare issue to some degree.
 
JFTDWS said:
I don't disagree, but what jumped out at me when I read this was "but how many genuine masters are left"? Because there's precious few high level riders these days (ever?) who aren't tainted with some kind of hideous welfare issue to some degree.
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Completely agree, very few. The whole industry has arguably been taken over, a slow drip drip from the 60s, and then rapid change since the 90s. We need to cherish the "old dead guys" (and the odd gal) who are still around, and hopefully they're continuing to train people who can take over from them. There are amazing new younger trainers coming through, but they're not competing dressage in the main and instead focus on ethical training from the ground and the saddle often with a blend of disciplines. Not unlike how it used to be where you didn't specialise as a rider until you'd reach M level on the continent in jumping and dressage (I think I'm correct in saying).
 
Ellisymonds said:
The post is very much still there but it is not set to public so you would have to be connected with her to see it.

No comments have been deleted from what I can see.
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Hi. Thanks. Apologies for referring to Tyler as a he. Been a long day with very little sleep. That’s odd though. As i could read the post and comments up until this afternoon.
 
Ambers Echo said:
The yard I was on with Myka for 6 weeks has no contracts and I have not yet been billed. And I have been and gone. And that is SOMERFORD! And I will, of course, pay and have prompted to YO to tell me what I owe as I have accumulated extras like more bales for a deeper bed etc. I am amazed people stay in business but she seems to be doing fine.
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Yup. I use 2 different riders, both 5*, have a contract with neither! They stand to loose far more than I do 😂

A breaker I use(d) doesn’t have contracts either. When she proudly told me XYZ was now going to send all his young fancy dressage horses to her for breaking - I immediately said get a contract and bill in advance with XYZ, yeah yeah yeah, thousands of pounds out of pocket later ….
 
The thing for me is that daddy bought the horse for £15k, through his business (sounds tax efficient to me). He then sold his business, which included business assets, ie the horse. So he’s already made a profit off the horse, assuming it’s treated as an appreciating asset, which he must be if his value has changed from low 5 figures to 6.

He then gets to keep whatever money he already made off the horse, while members of the public stump up £80k to buy the horse for his daughter. There’s no suggestion of those people getting anything for their money, or getting their money back should she later sell her shares in the horse to another investor.

I’m sorry, she may be a nice person. I don’t know, I’ve never met her. But this GFM campaign is the most entitled, privileged thing I’ve seen in a long time.

There’s also such a lack of transparency regarding the investment in the horse to date, which anyone sane would need to understand in order to decide whether to contribute. For example, how much did daddy get selling the horse in the first place? Was any of that given to MD or used to purchase further horses or training? How much did the main investor contribute at the time of their purchase of the horse? What was the market valuation at that stage? Who determined the current valuation? Has it been independently verified? Where is the evidence of the situation as described by MD? How is it the horse was available for lease or co-ownership; how would that buy out the part owner?

It’s curious that the other owners are silent. It’s curious that the horse is being immediately sent to Europe with no efforts to sell in the UK. It’s curious that it has to travel prior to export given we don’t require quarantine.

Add into that the other issues raised regarding the care for horses, and the silence from the trainer/supposed no.1 supporter.

The whole thing stinks.
 
DressageCob said:
The thing for me is that daddy bought the horse for £15k, through his business (sounds tax efficient to me). He then sold his business, which included business assets, ie the horse. So he’s already made a profit off the horse, assuming it’s treated as an appreciating asset, which he must be if his value has changed from low 5 figures to 6.

He then gets to keep whatever money he already made off the horse, while members of the public stump up £80k to buy the horse for his daughter. There’s no suggestion of those people getting anything for their money, or getting their money back should she later sell her shares in the horse to another investor.

I’m sorry, she may be a nice person. I don’t know, I’ve never met her. But this GFM campaign is the most entitled, privileged thing I’ve seen in a long time.

There’s also such a lack of transparency regarding the investment in the horse to date, which anyone sane would need to understand in order to decide whether to contribute. For example, how much did daddy get selling the horse in the first place? Was any of that given to MD or used to purchase further horses or training? How much did the main investor contribute at the time of their purchase of the horse? What was the market valuation at that stage? Who determined the current valuation? Has it been independently verified? Where is the evidence of the situation as described by MD? How is it the horse was available for lease or co-ownership; how would that buy out the part owner?

It’s curious that the other owners are silent. It’s curious that the horse is being immediately sent to Europe with no efforts to sell in the UK. It’s curious that it has to travel prior to export given we don’t require quarantine.

Add into that the other issues raised regarding the care for horses, and the silence from the trainer/supposed no.1 supporter.

The whole thing stinks.
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It’s all convoluted and people are all saying different things so I tried to figure it out from comments/old posts: I think there’s a step missing in what you have here and the dad didn’t still own when he was sold for six figures. I believe the dad sold/was bought out of the entire business for health reasons which included Olaf as an asset. She/her family then had no ownership of him at all but he was still with her. The new business owners then wanted to sell the horse (she says in a comment to someone he was sold to help keep the business afloat) which is when the current syndicate stepped in and there was the $100k valuation. So the dad didn’t own at the point he was valued/sold for six figures. And now the majority owner for the syndicate is somehow valuing him for $160k which seems way over what he’s worth, but that’s the number they gave her to buy out the majority stake of.
 
I’ve made this account as I want to comment but really don’t want to come off anon as I also don’t want to get involved with either side of the argument. I have talked to Milly a good few times and have seen her out at shows with various horses, never once have those horses ever ever looked malnourished in any way. I actually saw Jäger at i’m pretty sure which was her last outing with him back in August, maybe September and I remember thinking what an insane horse he looked. Also, I have talked to one of her close friends who I know from college and we have both said the partying allegation is quite insane as she is literally always with the horses. Yes, maybe a year or two ago she would go out quite a lot, but not now.

The photos posted by Tyler on facebook have zero time stamps or evidence, and I honestly find the whole thing strange considering she allowed the horse to be with Milly for so long if she thought the horses condition was bad. Also the current rider of the horse was going into partnership with Milly months after the horse was back with Tyler.

While I find the entire go fund me strange and the situation of Olaf veeeerry dodgy, there are 100% two sides to every story. I hope she does get to keep him as he does have a good home with her and who knows where he will end up otherwise. The whole thing needs to be kept off of social media and i’m sure in time the truth will all come out eventually whatever that may be, but for now it all just feels like tit for tat. If Tyler wants to show everyone what she is like with the horses (if it is true, which if it is then yes everyone needs to know) she needs actual evidence and to post it somewhere where everyone can see, not just a post on facebook where clearly people are going to side with the person they’re ’friends’ with.
 
DressageCob said:
The thing for me is that daddy bought the horse for £15k, through his business (sounds tax efficient to me). He then sold his business, which included business assets, ie the horse. So he’s already made a profit off the horse, assuming it’s treated as an appreciating asset, which he must be if his value has changed from low 5 figures to 6.

He then gets to keep whatever money he already made off the horse, while members of the public stump up £80k to buy the horse for his daughter. There’s no suggestion of those people getting anything for their money, or getting their money back should she later sell her shares in the horse to another investor.

I’m sorry, she may be a nice person. I don’t know, I’ve never met her. But this GFM campaign is the most entitled, privileged thing I’ve seen in a long time.

There’s also such a lack of transparency regarding the investment in the horse to date, which anyone sane would need to understand in order to decide whether to contribute. For example, how much did daddy get selling the horse in the first place? Was any of that given to MD or used to purchase further horses or training? How much did the main investor contribute at the time of their purchase of the horse? What was the market valuation at that stage? Who determined the current valuation? Has it been independently verified? Where is the evidence of the situation as described by MD? How is it the horse was available for lease or co-ownership; how would that buy out the part owner?

It’s curious that the other owners are silent. It’s curious that the horse is being immediately sent to Europe with no efforts to sell in the UK. It’s curious that it has to travel prior to export given we don’t require quarantine.

Add into that the other issues raised regarding the care for horses, and the silence from the trainer/supposed no.1 supporter.

The whole thing stinks.
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Ah I meant not you missing a step but most people are (have seen several comments in places thinking her dad currently owns outright) — but if he was sold as part of a business that was faltering enough that the horse needed to be sold immediately to keep it afloat then I’m not sure we can assume the father directly profited much from the horse. He also might not be in the position to help financially at the moment. People keep assuming she/they are currently wealthy. It is all very messy and very strange and I don’t think either side in this is being clear at all about their stories.
 
rhino said:
I’m not sure an adult’s dad is in any way beholden to provide finance anyway. For luxury pets or otherwise.

Am I right in thinking MD is mid 20s? There seems to be a trend towards infantilising young adults and it’s been quite apparent on this thread.
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Apologies if that was me. I thought she must be a lot younger. I don't know anything about her except the go fund me and I genuinely expected it to come from someone who was 18ish not mid 20s.
 
I no longer have a any opinion on this situation as I have no idea what’s going on. But just in principle on the ‘dad money’ point. If a young person works hard to turn a 15k horse into a 100k one and dad as shareholder in the horse makes a lot of money off the back of her efforts and talent, then I do not think it’s infantilising for some of the money to go to the YP. I’d do that for my children 100% whatever age they were.
 
I think the only certain thing is that this is just the top of a very murky, convoluted iceberg. I hope most of all that wherever the horse is, he is well loved and looked after, because he is utterly innocent in all of this, and deserves a good life.

I have never donated to a GFM, and this wasnt going to make me change my mind, I found it ridiculous that Milly had apparently done a deal where she was not the majority/controlling stakeholder in the horse, and then complained when the controlling stakeholder wanted something different to her, that to me, was the nature of that kind of deal, so to then ask the general public to literally pay for her mistake is absurd. I also value honesty, and some of her rather wild exaggerations put me off, then Tyler entered the mess and everything just got more complicated. I dont know any of the people personally, so I have no idea who is telling the truth, its more than likely that the truth lies somewhere in the middle of all of it, I just hope the horse is ok.
 
She said she was 15 when she first saw the horse for £15k. So she must be early 20s.

She gives the impression of being supported by her family. Her parents ran a competition venue, bought her show ponies and then dressage horses. They were all mates with Mary Wanless, had Monty Roberts and Kelly Marks over to start her horses. The dad is a rider/trainer as well.

PETER DOVE – Dressage Training TV

dressagetraining.tv dressagetraining.tv

www.horseandhound.co.uk

A young dressage rider on the power of social media, ethical horsemanship and more

Milly Dove on her dressage ambitions, training ethos and how a thriving Instagram presence helped her keep her top ride, Jaguar VOD (Olaf).
www.horseandhound.co.uk www.horseandhound.co.uk


My point was that the dad likely made a profit selling the horse as a business asset so why should ordinary members of the public spend their money to buy the horse that family has already benefitted from. Given the father’s role in buying the horse originally, the fact she competes her father’s horses, seems to use their facilities. I think it’s naive to suggest she is entirely separate from the family’s financial position.
 
I don’t like the idea of the horse being carted off to mainland Europe, especially if he was as tricky as described, and especially if the rider treats him well and has bonded with him. I just don’t like the GFM and lack of transparency. I don’t wish harm on any of the people involved and especially not the horse
 
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